history of God

[BuddhistCommunist]

YWHW was based off of the Supreme Caananite mountain god El, YHWH was used not only as a moral booster for the military, but the spiritual war against the Caananites. Since the early pagan tribes of Isreal didn't have a supreme God, they stole it from their enemies. Baal was the Supreme God of the Caananites and once they were defeated.... only YWHW remained. the Jews formed their prophecies just as any other faith would. Judaism was still a small faith, comparitively speaking, and still is. But when the Roman Empire adopted Christianity... YWHW now called God becomes a centerfold in the world. Since europeans have dominated the world in one form or another for centuries, they sent their faith with them. Thus, we have the problem of Christianity that still exists today.

Allah started off as the supreme god of the pagan middle easterners. Muhamad just made his people relenquish their other Gods. Thus you have islam. The Muslims have a saying,"there is no God but Allah and Muhamad is his prophet".

They clearly stole this from the Ancient Egyptian Reign of Ankhenaten. He instituted Several reforms stating that Aten was the one true God. He said "there is no God but Aten and Ankhenaten in his prophet". After the reign of Ankhenaten, Pharoah Tutankhamun(long life to amun) reinstated the original Pantheon of Gods.

People have been imposing their beliefs on others since the start of Religion. Just like Christianity is based almost entirely off of Zoroasterism....

Yeah thats for anybody to read, just thought I'd share it

[Amanda]

Just like Christianity is based almost entirely off of Zoroasterism....

Yeah thats for anybody to read, just thought I'd share it

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Wow, that's very interesting! I have never been one into history, world or religous.

 

Are you familiar with the Buddhist, Zen, and/or Suffis rise to influence too? Was there ever a common denominator to all these religions? Perhaps Mythra would know that.

 

I've heard that Shem, Ham, and Japheth started the Jews, the Phonecians, and the Gentiles. Abraham supposedly started the Islamic, Jewish/Christian, and then the Bible talks about other children he had after Sarah died that he sent to the far east... and I've been curious if these children had any spiritual influence, or did they come much too late to contribute to eastern philosophies?

 

BTW, are you familiar with the Tibbetan Buddhist's spiritual documents that seem to indicate that some of the lost years of Jesus were spent in India with these Buddhist?

[dogmatically_challenged]

Wow, that's very interesting! I have never been one into history, world or religous.

 

Are you familiar with the Buddhist, Zen, and/or Suffis rise to influence too? Was there ever a common denominator to all these religions? Perhaps Mythra would know that.

 

I've heard that Shem, Ham, and Japheth started the Jews, the Phonecians, and the Gentiles. Abraham supposedly started the Islamic, Jewish/Christian, and then the Bible talks about other children he had after Sarah died that he sent to the far east... and I've been curious if these children had any spiritual influence, or did they come much too late to contribute to eastern philosophies?

 

BTW, are you familiar with the Tibbetan Buddhist's spiritual documents that seem to indicate that some of the lost years of Jesus were spent in India with these Buddhist?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

BTW, are you familiar with the Tibbetan Buddhist's spiritual documents that seem to indicate that some of the lost years of Jesus were spent in India with these Buddhist?

Give us links to this if you can. I am very skeptical but I'm sure that there are at least two people in this thread that would be interested. Maybe I'm just being gullible but if there is evidence of jesus outside of the bible I want to see it. Thanks.

 

 

I've heard that Shem, Ham, and Japheth started the Jews, the Phonecians, and the Gentiles. Abraham supposedly started the Islamic, Jewish/Christian, and then the Bible talks about other children he had after Sarah died that he sent to the far east... and I've been curious if these children had any spiritual influence, or did they come much too late to contribute to eastern philosophies?

First I'd like evidence that shem, ham, and japheth and moses really ever existed. Good luck.

[Guest Anathema]

In fact, virgin-born, crucified and resurrected saviors were as common as dirt in pre-christian pagan mythology. All of them are pre-christian sun gods, and virtually all allegedly had gods for fathers, virgins for mothers; had their births announced by stars; were born on the solstice around December 25th; had tyrants who tried to kill them in their infancy; met violent deaths; rose from the dead; and nearly all were worshiped by 'wise men' and were alleged to have fasted for forty days.

 

 

 

 

Belief is not a choice.

 

 

[Amanda]

Give us links to this if you can. I am very skeptical but I'm sure that there are at least two people in this thread that would be interested. Maybe I'm just being gullible but if there is evidence of jesus outside of the bible I want to see it. Thanks.

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http://reluctant-messenger.com/issa.htm

 

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...222264?v=glance

 

This one addresses more of the controversy about the validity of the evidence of Jesus being in India, in what seems to be an objective manner:

http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm

 

There seems to be lots more if you just do a search on "The Lost Years of Jesus". I looked through several sites and could not find one that concluded this to be a hoax... yet, I didn't check them all. I have read the book many years ago.

[Guest aexapo]

Of course, there is that excellent piece of yarn, The Da Vinci Code, which has Jesus marrying and having knowledge with Mary Magdalene, who exiled herself to France, where she bore Sarah -- I believe, who was supposedly the ancestor of the Merovingian kings.

 

I've never seen dots connected so carelessly as in this book -- well, I have -- I was raised Pentecostal. But, it's fun anyway, and it almost makes you believe it. But, when you read criticisms of it, you really find out how much of it is Dan Brown's over active imagination.

[Heimdall]

Don't waste your time, the "Jesus-in-India/Tibet" theory has been long debunked, it does keep rearing it's ugly head, but if you do go to those website, you will see that Norovitch, never read the documents himself, only had them translated for him, that no one can find any such documents and when his story was checked out latter, the Abbot of the monastary said that Norovitch had never been there and that there were no such documents - Heimdall

[BuddhistCommunist]

Well I am familiar with the story of Jesus in central asia, but im not familiar with the documents. I really don't know if its true or not. Jesus And Buddha had strikingly similiar

beliefs about people.

Jesus-The truth shall make you free

Buddha- The truth will give you happiness in this life and the next.

They are very similar in many of their speaches, So i wouldn't be surprised if Jesus went to central asia. Buddha does not evangelize a god though, Just self-liberation. I believe Jesus may have been trying to combine Buddhism with Judeaism. It works well in theory, But If it produced the Christians we have now.... Jesus made a terrible error.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Well I am familiar with the story of Jesus in central asia, but im not familiar with the documents. I really don't know if its true or not. Jesus And Buddha had strikingly similiar

beliefs about people.

Jesus-The truth shall make you free

Buddha- The truth will give you happiness in this life and the next.

They are very similar in many of their speaches, So i wouldn't be surprised if Jesus went to central asia. Buddha does not evangelize a god though, Just self-liberation. I believe Jesus may have been trying to combine Buddhism with Judeaism. It works well in theory, But If it produced the Christians we have now.... Jesus made a terrible error.

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Or his mouthpieces (bible writers) made a terrible error.

[BuddhistCommunist]

LOL very true very true

[dogmatically_challenged]

I will admit something. I have a secret hope that jesus taught something better than what the bible gives us and that jesus was the first Gandhi. I would love it if anthropology could priduce such a historical figure, so that I may have my turn of bashing xers over the head with jesus. And be able to make the xers feel ashamed for believing in things not seen, believing human sacrifice can pay for others sins, as well as shaming them with thier supporting a story with only bribes and threats as its hook. And last but not least supporting a god who does not lead by example such as yhwh. Wouldn't it be cool if jesus was a hippy deist sticking it to the establishment?

 

I realize of coarse that this is just pure fantasy based soley on desire and nothing more. hehe.

[Guest Anathema]

I will admit something. I have a secret hope that jesus taught something better than what the bible gives us and that jesus was the first Gandhi. I would love it if anthropology could priduce such a historical figure, so that I may have my turn of bashing xers over the head with jesus. And be able to make the xers feel ashamed for believing in things not seen, believing human sacrifice can pay for others sins, as well as shaming them with thier supporting a story with only bribes and threats as its hook. And last but not least supporting a god who does not lead by example such as yhwh. Wouldn't it be cool if jesus was a hippy deist sticking it to the establishment?

 

I realize of coarse that this is just pure fantasy based soley on desire and nothing more. hehe.

 

That's more believable than the gospels!!

 

 

[Amanda]

Don't waste your time, the "Jesus-in-India/Tibet" theory has been long debunked, it does keep rearing it's ugly head, but if you do go to those website, you will see that Norovitch, never read the documents himself, only had them translated for him, that no one can find any such documents and when his story was checked out latter, the Abbot of the monastary said that Norovitch had never been there and that there were no such documents - Heimdall 

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This site http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm seems to be a very objective site, and makes reference to the claims you make. Although, it goes on to say that Norovitch's claims were substantiated by several other sources. Anyone interested in another perspective to just Heimdall's, a very intellectual person, might consider another perspective to the story by just clicking on the site I've provided here again: http://www.tjresearch.info/ecumensm.htm

 

Also a small reference, among much more on the site, to what Heimdall claims is here from the site...

 

"a Professor J. Archibald Douglas, had to acknowledge evidence that Notovitch had indeed been to Leh at least,12 and in responding to Müller, Notovitch mentioned names of those who could attest to his having traveled there.13 And Notovitch's description of both the exterior and interior of the Himis monastery, like those of his travel experiences themselves, are sufficiently detailed without appearing in any way contrived as to dispel doubts that he had been to the monastery.14 Thus, none of Müller's three main points seem to have been relevant.

 

In 1896 this Professor Douglas of Government College in Agra, India, wrote of his own trip to Leh and Himis the previous year for the express purpose of checking up on Notovitch's finds. Unfortunately we know absolutely nothing about Professor Douglas, such as his field of interest or how long he was affiliated with Government College in Agra, other than what his article in the Nineteenth Century journal tells us. He apparently did not write any books, and in his paper he did not mention any colleague or other person to whom he discussed his plans for traveling to Himis or with whom he discussed his findings, except for Müller, to whom he quickly communicated his charges against Notovitch's alleged findings. He reported that the same head lama of Himis personally attested to him, through a Ladakhi translater, Shahmwell Joldan, of knowing nothing of any visit there by Notovitch or by any Russian with a broken leg.15 There is an interesing resolution to this contradictory testimony that Müller himself mentioned, though with a different application in mind.

 

Müller noted that there indeed had been travelers to the East "to whom Brahmans or Buddhists have supplied, for a consideration, the information and even the manuscripts which they were in search of." He felt that Notovitch might have been such a victim of a Buddhist monk who supplied him with an invented story.16 However, it appears more likely that Douglas instead was the unknowing victim of a monk's discretion or subterfuge. After having learned of some potentially dangerous reactions that Notovitch's 1894 book could cause, the head lama of Hemis could either tell the truth and stir up a hornet's nest of trouble for him and his monastery's library, or he could deny to Douglas and his converted-to-Christianity translator, Joldan, any knowledge of Notovitch's visit there. The latter was a much more expedient course of action than for the lama to invent on the spot a collection of 244 verses about Isa to read to Notovitch and his translator. Moreover, the translator Douglas used, Joldan, having been the postmaster of Leh under the British Imperial Post Office, was in a position to cause continuing problems for the Buddhist library at Hemis from the information that Notovitch had exposed, as he (Joldan) had close ties to the Christian Moravian missionaries in Leh.16.1 It must have been psychologically intimidating for the head lama to be quizzed by a professor intent upon attacking a text that was upsetting to Christianity through a Ladakhi translator who had abandoned the Buddhist traditions. Click here to learn more on this from the research of A. J. Trebst. At the same time, any impartial reading of Notovitch's book discloses no good motivation why he, of Russian Orthodox belief, would have invented the verses about Isa, though he was obviously excited at the prospect of being the one to fill in this gap within the Gospels and bring the "Lost Years" information to the attention of the West.17

 

One of Douglas's questions to the chief lama that suggests it was Douglas, not Notovitch, who had been misled was: "Is the name of Issa held in great respect by the Buddhists?" The lama's reply is said to have been, "They know nothing even of his name; none of the Lamas has ever heard of it, save through missionaries and European sources."18 This stands in strong contrast to what Jawarhar Nehru wrote his daughter, Indira, in a 1932 letter: "All over Central Asia, in Kashmir and Ladakh and Tibet and even farther north, there is still a strong belief that Jesus or Isa travelled about there."19 It stands to reason that the lamas were even more aware of this tradition than was the general population.

 

It may be mentioned that the present traditions of Jesus having lived in India during his youth indeed date far back in time. They were known to the tenth-century Muslim historian, Shaikh Al-Said,20 who wrote down some of the Hindu/Buddhist legends of Isa's travels in India."

[scotter]

Amanda and readers:

 

Another URL -

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

 

I am not debating whether Jesus lived in India or not, but Amanda.....

 

1) Do you believe Jesus lived in India and died on the Cross in Judea/Palestine?

 

You have told us about your belief that Jesus lived in India with scholarly references, please then share with us how you do not believe the other scholarly researches that Jesus died in Kashmir.

 

or

2) Do you believe Jesus lived in India and died in India?

 

Please then share with us your exposition, literally or spiritually, on the Crucifixion and Ascension.

[Amanda]

Amanda and readers:

 

Another URL -

http://www.sol.com.au/kor/7_01.htm

 

I am not debating whether Jesus lived in India or not, but Amanda.....

 

1) Do you believe Jesus lived in India and died on the Cross in Judea/Palestine?

 

You have told us about your belief that Jesus lived in India with scholarly references, please then share with us how you do not believe the other scholarly researches that Jesus died in Kashmir.

 

or

2) Do you believe Jesus lived in India and died in India?

 

Please then share with us your exposition, literally or spiritually, on the Crucifixion and Ascension.

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Scotter, thank you for the resource you've shared here!!! As I've conceded in the past, I'm not one for history. I mostly have focused on principles taught by Jesus for coping in the world. Yes, I do believe he went to India, and many of these other locations suggested in the article you sited. I think that Jesus was the great recocilers of these many beliefs, of these many areas of influence for the time... including the non-theist profundities that emphasized the justification of only man's will too!

 

The only detail I recall about the exact location is that it was done at calgary. I know this is only listed one time in the Bible, yet when I went to my convenient resource site, http://www.crosswalk.com/, and checked at least eight translations... I couldn't find it one time! As I recall, the word calgary was really a metaphorical word. Further, it seems in my reading of the book, The Lost Years of Jesus, that Jesus was run out of India, for the momentum in his popularity. Additionally, it seems that the Romans would of had to have some jurisdiction... as well as the influence of the Jews. My understanding would find that to be very unlikely to have happened in India.

 

I personally believe that the crucifiction did happen. Jesus came to be a role model, to show us the way... through great trials... to find peace within, no matter what is around us. Hindsight has 20/20 vision, and through Paul... his teachings gained wide respect and resilience to this day... changed the calendar... great emperors and rulers conceded to his majesty... and his strength endures till this day! I think it's the kind of revelation that gains in momentum... if one is inclined to seek and research the deeper lessons of these teachings. I sense tha Jesus seems to have existed.

 

Scotter, I'm very curious as to what are your ideas/conclusions?

[scotter]

Amanda thank you for sharing your thoughts.

 

Jesus and India issue does not concern me that much. I used to read about that.

[BuddhistCommunist]

I believe that Jesus attained Enlightenment After the baptism and during his 40 days in the wilderness, just as buddha attained enlightenment after the 4 sites and during his 40 days under the Bodha tree..... Oh wait those are very similair aren't they lol. I thought that was interesting, 500 years after the Buddha, Jesus recieves A very similar experience then recieves enlightenment after the same amount of days.

[Amanda]

I believe that Jesus attained Enlightenment After the baptism and during his 40 days in the wilderness, just as buddha attained enlightenment after the 4 sites and during his 40 days under the Bodha tree..... Oh wait those are very similair aren't they lol. I thought that was interesting, 500 years after the Buddha, Jesus recieves A very similar experience then recieves enlightenment after the same amount of days.

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Actually, I think that Jesus may have had a stronger Buddhist influence than anything else... yet, I may be mistaken. Do you think that it is these 40 days that they were suppose to have been testing, meditating, and putting all they had learned into a congruent form without having any contradictions? I think Buddha said that the root of all suffering is 'attachment', as in material things... is that true? Also, if that is true... how about attachment to one another?

 

Have you ever read the Suffis? I haven't read near as much as I'd like... it appears they have a different aspect, which I greatly admire so far.

[BuddhistCommunist]

Well The root of all suffering is attachment. People become angry, hateful, slovenly, lustful, prideful, gluttons because of attachment. Why, because once you recieve something you feel you need, you fear losing it. Fear is just ignorance. A person is not afraid because a gun is pointed at their face, they are scared because they worry what will happen to their families, about themselves, about what will happen if they die, Pain, these are all the inner root of fear, ignorance of what will happen. Anything that would seem to deny a person Happiness causes fear. Happiness is The driving emotion in Human Life. Freedom, love, friendship, these are all things that bring happiness. Then there is Material Attachment That Jesus and Buddha taught against. Thats what Buddhism is about, Freedom, love, friendship is important to happiness. Land, lust, power, objects, money, are all things to avoid being attached to. Without Freedom and love(not necesarily a person, but life, joy, family, etc.) We cannot be happy. That is why

Freedom and love are things worth fighting for. Material possetions are not.

[BuddhistCommunist]

Oh and 40 is also represented many times in the bible. 40 days and 40 nights, 40 years for the Isrealites in the wilderness. so-on.

[Skankboy]

Are you familiar with the Buddhist, Zen, and/or Suffis rise to influence too? Was there ever a common denominator to all these religions? Perhaps Mythra would know that.

 

I'm not sure about the Suffis, but Zen is actually a form of Buddhism, focusing on the idea of spontaneous enlightenment. That is, enlightenment can be found in anything. The story goes the Buddha was going to have is own little sermon on the mount. Huge crowd shows up to see what he has to say. Instead, the Buddha holds up a lotus blossum for half an hour and doesn't say a word. People start muttering and hmm'ing and haw'ing and then one of Buddha's disciples (I forget which one), smiled. He had recieved the lesson and went on to found what would become the Zen school.

 

As for Jesus in India. I most certainly see similarities in the teachings (if you selectively edit some of what jesus said or assume the writers took some of his statements the wrong way). As I recall, wasn't he associated w/the jewish Essenes? My understanding is that they teach a brand of judaism very similar in many respects to buddhism. My theory was that it was from these people, not necessary the buddhists themselves, that he got buddhist like influences.

 

 

IMOHO,

[Kuroikaze]

Wow, that's very interesting! I have never been one into history, world or religous.

 

Are you familiar with the Buddhist, Zen, and/or Suffis rise to influence too? Was there ever a common denominator to all these religions? Perhaps Mythra would know that.

 

I've heard that Shem, Ham, and Japheth started the Jews, the Phonecians, and the Gentiles. Abraham supposedly started the Islamic, Jewish/Christian, and then the Bible talks about other children he had after Sarah died that he sent to the far east... and I've been curious if these children had any spiritual influence, or did they come much too late to contribute to eastern philosophies?

 

BTW, are you familiar with the Tibbetan Buddhist's spiritual documents that seem to indicate that some of the lost years of Jesus were spent in India with these Buddhist?

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Eastern religions do have a few common denomenators, but it can actually be pretty complicated, Buddhism began in India, of couse, but mosly died out there shortly after it moved into China, Zen Buddhism is basicly a Taoist influenced form of Buddhism,

 

Taoism emphasizes following the path of nature, probably the closest comparison in western thought would be nature religions, like those of the indians, but Taoism is still quite a bit different, it has some very philosopical elements to it, and in many ways its probably the oldest form of relativism.

 

Its sort of amazing to me actually, that the chinese developed a relativisic belief system more that 2,000 years before western philosophers even thought of the idea, we can't just blame xianity for that either, the philosophy of Socrates flatly denied relativism as well, what with the concept of the perfect forms and all.

 

Still the bigest influence in all of eastern culture is the teachings of Kung Fu Tzu, or as we know him Confucius (the name change happened when they latinized his name) Though Confucius was chinese his teachings have influnced almost every eastern culture.

 

I'll be honest with you, even though Confucinism may be called a religion i have a lot of respect for its teachings, For instance Confucius taught (contrary to popular teaching of his day) that a person should feed his family before making sacrifics to the gods, and when a local lord asked him how to stop the local population from stealing Confucius told the lord that the people might be less inclined to steal if thier lord wasn't a thief himself.

 

There are also a lot of ancient religions being practiced in the east (no narrow minded religion like christianity to hold inquisitions to wipe them out) Shinto is still a vibrant religion in Japan, though few japanese actually believe things like the Shinto creation myth is anything but a myth, its still widly practiced, just mostly as a social institution.

 

Suffism is something else entirely, its basicly a Mystial form of Islam. Mysticism emphasizes all things being part of God, a suffi might even point to a chair and say that the chair is God. Obviouly most of Islam thinks that suffis are heretics.

 

As far as Jesus being in India, I'd acctually never heard that, I remember some fundies saying that Thomas went to India to convert them, I doubt they had any evidence for this beyond being told by somebody else who was just as ignorant as them so i don't take the claim very seriously.

 

My first thought about Jesus being in india is that it seems unlikely, but then I'm not totally convenced that the gospels even present one Jesus, there were at least three, and maybe more, messianic figures running around israel durring the first century, so the gosples could be a colection of stories about many different "messiah's"

 

I guess it is posible that a jew from the first century did venture to India, but i've mostly only heard this kinda stuff from fundies who want to claim that any good relgious beliefs that come from the east were some how taken from chistianity, so i'm a bit doutful.

 

whew....sorry about the long post...but when i get going

 

<----was a religion major in college so i can get a bit wordy when it come to this stuff. Believe it or not i almost went into more detail

[Amanda]

Without Freedom and love(not necesarily a person, but life, joy, family, etc.) We cannot be happy. That is why 

Freedom and love are things worth fighting for. Material possetions are not.

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Buddhist Communist... thank you for clarifying that for me. Much appreciated!

[Amanda]

Oh and 40 is also represented many times in the bible. 40 days and 40 nights, 40 years for the Isrealites in the wilderness. so-on.

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Buddhist Communist, I've heard/read that 40 is a symbolic number, meaning what seems to be forever. Do you think that number is literal or metaphorical?

[Amanda]

I guess it is posible that a jew from the first century did venture to India, but i've mostly only heard this kinda stuff from fundies who want to claim that any good relgious beliefs that come from the east were some how taken from chistianity, so i'm a bit doutful.

 

whew....sorry about the long post...but when i get going 

 

<----was a religion major in college so i can get a bit wordy when it come to this stuff.  Believe it or not i almost went into more detail   

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THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR POST... I COULD OF READ MUCH MORE!!!

 

IMHO, I don't think that Christianity contributed to Buddhism, but that Buddhism contributed to Christianity! Even Jesus said, (I) the truth, the way, the life comes like lightening... from the East to the West. I think that Jesus was about joining these two, much like Yogamanda... not too long ago.