Here's A Question A Minister Will Never Ask.

[Guest WhatwasIthinking]

Change the names around - pretend like they are from some 'other' text (maybe the Qur'an) and read it to the congregation. Then ask for a show of hands of people who agree, "The punishment was justified" Notice I didn't even use one of the several "dash the babies upon rocks" type passages. Look at this story of how an entire family was stoned "by all of Israel" and then burned after being stoned with (what else?) stones because one member of the family stole treasure.

 

 

Joshua 7:19-26 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

 

 

19And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

 

20And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

 

21When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

 

22So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

 

23And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.

 

24And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

 

25And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

 

26And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.

[rayskidude]

Change the names around - pretend like they are from some 'other' text (maybe the Qur'an) and read it to the congregation. Then ask for a show of hands of people who agree, "The punishment was justified" Notice I didn't even use one of the several "dash the babies upon rocks" type passages. Look at this story of how an entire family was stoned "by all of Israel" and then burned after being stoned with (what else?) stones because one member of the family stole treasure.

 

 

Joshua 7:19-26 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

 

 

19And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

 

20And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

 

21When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

 

22So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

 

23And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.

 

24And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

 

25And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

 

26And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.

[rayskidude]

Change the names around - pretend like they are from some 'other' text (maybe the Qur'an) and read it to the congregation. Then ask for a show of hands of people who agree, "The punishment was justified" Notice I didn't even use one of the several "dash the babies upon rocks" type passages. Look at this story of how an entire family was stoned "by all of Israel" and then burned after being stoned with (what else?) stones because one member of the family stole treasure.

 

 

Joshua 7:19-26 (King James Version)

King James Version (KJV)

Public Domain

 

 

 

19And Joshua said unto Achan, My son, give, I pray thee, glory to the LORD God of Israel, and make confession unto him; and tell me now what thou hast done; hide it not from me.

 

20And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:

 

21When I saw among the spoils a goodly Babylonish garment, and two hundred shekels of silver, and a wedge of gold of fifty shekels weight, then I coveted them, and took them; and, behold, they are hid in the earth in the midst of my tent, and the silver under it.

 

22So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran unto the tent; and, behold, it was hid in his tent, and the silver under it.

 

23And they took them out of the midst of the tent, and brought them unto Joshua, and unto all the children of Israel, and laid them out before the LORD.

 

24And Joshua, and all Israel with him, took Achan the son of Zerah, and the silver, and the garment, and the wedge of gold, and his sons, and his daughters, and his oxen, and his asses, and his sheep, and his tent, and all that he had: and they brought them unto the valley of Achor.

 

25And Joshua said, Why hast thou troubled us? the LORD shall trouble thee this day. And all Israel stoned him with stones, and burned them with fire, after they had stoned them with stones.

 

26And they raised over him a great heap of stones unto this day. So the LORD turned from the fierceness of his anger. Wherefore the name of that place was called, The valley of Achor, unto this day.

 

First notice in Josh 6:16-19, God had clearly instructed the Jewish people what to do with the things in Jericho - they were to be dedicated to God who had deliverd them from slavery in Egypt. This would also teach the people to trust God for whatever they needed - they did not have to conquer people to get what they needed, God would provide just as HE had with the manna in the desert. And notice God warned them that they would possibly covet what they saw - so God specifically warned them ahead of time what the consequences would be for disobedience.

 

Second - note that Jericho was in the same locale as Sodom & Gomorrah, the peoples of this area were known to be particularly wicked, even to sacrificing their children to their god, Molech. So the Jewish people were not to take any spoils, as they may been dedicated to the false gods of the Canaanites or used in worship of their wicked gods.

 

Third - Achan directly disobeyed an obvious command from God. This reveals the hard-heart of Achan; he cared nothing for the whole nation, he purposely and selfishly put them in a position of God's righteous judgment, which he knew could possibly happen - did Achan really think he could hide what he did from God? What does Achan think about God - that He's a man to be fooled and mocked?

 

Fourth - look at the position he put his family in, either they were willfully complicit in his crime, or he forced them to be accomplices in his sin. Either way - his family did not confront him or go to the leaders with this information - so they were essentially accomplices in Achan's crime.

 

Fifth - this act of disobedience was an insolent act, not a crime of passion - but Achan undoubtedly had decided that he would not obey the ban if he saw something he desired. His sin was like shaking his fist in God's face, spitting in God's face, an insistence that Achan is not accountable to anyone - least of all, God.

 

Sixth - note that Achan himself finally admitted his crime - he didn't voluntarily confess from guilt when it was announced that someone had sinned. Rather, he only admitted his sin after it was clear from supernatural means that revealed that he was the guilty party. Again - utter selfishness, along with disdain for all others.

 

So in a word - Achan was essentially a psychopath - no remorse, no care for others, choosing only his personal gain even to the suffering of others.

 

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

SO although, it's difficult for me to understand some things that God does, I remind myself that God is so unlike me in His infinite holiness, justice, righteousness, etc - that I BY FAITH entrust Him to do what is right. But I also remind myself that I cannot understand His infinite mercy, love, grace, etc to forgive sin that is freely confessed.

 

I know that this answer is probably not completely satisfying - but I hope it does give some context and causes you to think again about this and other occurences of tragedies in the Scripture. Severe judgment is never a pleasant thought or event - yet God is not inconsistent in His Person. There is a reason for all that occurs, and God remains who He is despite Man's protestations.

[florduh]

Oh boy, does this need to go to the Lion's Den!

[nightflight]

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

Do you really believe this shit? We cannot hurt God in anyway; yet he must punish us "sinners" in the worst way imaginable. Only a sick, Orwellian mind can call such a being "good". Only a perverted mind can call such a religion "good news".

 

This parts sticks out like a sore thumb; "His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution."

You fucking tard! You say we are sinners by nature, then you say God must punish us for acting according to that nature. And you have the fucking nerve to say your god is just???? LOL!

[florduh]

See?

[Kuroikaze]

So in a word - Achan was essentially a psychopath - no remorse, no care for others, choosing only his personal gain even to the suffering of others.

 

Notice that when Achan behaves this way he is a psycopath, but....

 

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

SO although, it's difficult for me to understand some things that God does, I remind myself that God is so unlike me in His infinite holiness, justice, righteousness, etc - that I BY FAITH entrust Him to do what is right. But I also remind myself that I cannot understand His infinite mercy, love, grace, etc to forgive sin that is freely confessed.

 

I know that this answer is probably not completely satisfying - but I hope it does give some context and causes you to think again about this and other occurences of tragedies in the Scripture. Severe judgment is never a pleasant thought or event - yet God is not inconsistent in His Person. There is a reason for all that occurs, and God remains who He is despite Man's protestations.

 

 

When god behaves in the same way he is just "beyond our sinful understanding"

 

Man give it up, you just start out with an a-priori double standard that says the god of the bible must be right because he is always right.

 

If you want to believe in a "Divine command" moral theory go ahead but leave me out of it.

[Jedah]

First notice in Josh 6:16-19, God had clearly instructed the Jewish people what to do with the things in Jericho - they were to be dedicated to God who had deliverd them from slavery in Egypt. This would also teach the people to trust God for whatever they needed - they did not have to conquer people to get what they needed, God would provide just as HE had with the manna in the desert. And notice God warned them that they would possibly covet what they saw - so God specifically warned them ahead of time what the consequences would be for disobedience.

 

Second - note that Jericho was in the same locale as Sodom & Gomorrah, the peoples of this area were known to be particularly wicked, even to sacrificing their children to their god, Molech. So the Jewish people were not to take any spoils, as they may been dedicated to the false gods of the Canaanites or used in worship of their wicked gods.

 

Third - Achan directly disobeyed an obvious command from God. This reveals the hard-heart of Achan; he cared nothing for the whole nation, he purposely and selfishly put them in a position of God's righteous judgment, which he knew could possibly happen - did Achan really think he could hide what he did from God? What does Achan think about God - that He's a man to be fooled and mocked?

 

Fourth - look at the position he put his family in, either they were willfully complicit in his crime, or he forced them to be accomplices in his sin. Either way - his family did not confront him or go to the leaders with this information - so they were essentially accomplices in Achan's crime.

 

Fifth - this act of disobedience was an insolent act, not a crime of passion - but Achan undoubtedly had decided that he would not obey the ban if he saw something he desired. His sin was like shaking his fist in God's face, spitting in God's face, an insistence that Achan is not accountable to anyone - least of all, God.

 

Sixth - note that Achan himself finally admitted his crime - he didn't voluntarily confess from guilt when it was announced that someone had sinned. Rather, he only admitted his sin after it was clear from supernatural means that revealed that he was the guilty party. Again - utter selfishness, along with disdain for all others.

 

So in a word - Achan was essentially a psychopath - no remorse, no care for others, choosing only his personal gain even to the suffering of others.

 

Good God! That's amazing! I was totally wrong! Dead people do bleed!

[Deva]

SO although, it's difficult for me to understand some things that God does, I remind myself that God is so unlike me in His infinite holiness, justice, righteousness, etc - that I BY FAITH entrust Him to do what is right. But I also remind myself that I cannot understand His infinite mercy, love, grace, etc to forgive sin that is freely confessed.

 

If I were you I would find someone or something else to put my FAITH and trust in, other than someone that HATES YOUR GUTS for being born a sinner.

 

I know that this answer is probably not completely satisfying ...

 

Can we all say in unison- "understatement of the century"?

[florduh]

I addressed this topic at length with my former pastor. He is a sincere, educated and intelligent guy. I still like him. However, his answers and explanations were lacking in light of rational thinking and plain old common sense.

 

He said he didn't like to touch on this aspect of God in his sermons, because people who weren't strong in their faith might get the wrong idea. They need to have a full understanding of God's requirement of obedience and justice.

 

Translation: God's cruelty is one of the icky parts of the Bible best left alone. Only the truly brainwashed can handle it because it makes no sense to thinking people.

[Looking4Answers]

First notice in Josh 6:16-19, God had clearly instructed the Jewish people what to do with the things in Jericho - they were to be dedicated to God who had deliverd them from slavery in Egypt. This would also teach the people to trust God for whatever they needed - they did not have to conquer people to get what they needed, God would provide just as HE had with the manna in the desert. And notice God warned them that they would possibly covet what they saw - so God specifically warned them ahead of time what the consequences would be for disobedience.

 

God is a loving "father", right? So, as a father myself, I should instruct my children to not touch my things because they are mine (i.e. dedicated to me). And if they DO touch/take something that belongs to me, I should utterly destroy that child for doing so. After all, this is the image that the perfect, loving, long suffering, heavenly father portrays for us. And the added side benefit is that my other kids (the ones that I didn't kill because they didn't touch my stuff) will learn to trust me to provide for them ... that they don't need to take my stuff in order to get what they want. Yes, I can see it now! The remaining kids will rush into my arms and love me, having learned the lesson through the cruel death of their brother. Works for me. Now I just need to learn how to explain to the cops why there is this body of a burned child in my back yard ...

 

Second - note that Jericho was in the same locale as Sodom & Gomorrah, the peoples of this area were known to be particularly wicked, even to sacrificing their children to their god, Molech. So the Jewish people were not to take any spoils, as they may been dedicated to the false gods of the Canaanites or used in worship of their wicked gods.

 

Shows you what you know! Jericho is NOT in the same location as Sodom and Gomorrah! That is like saying that BUffalo, NY is in the same location as New York City! I used to live in Israel I have been to the general area of Sodom and Gomorrah and I have been to Jericho (back when you were allowed to go there ... can't do that easily now because of Palestinian control of the area). Jericho is about a half hour drive (or more) from the uppermost part of the Dead Sea. And if Sodom and Gomorrah as further down (not at the top of the Dead Sea) then it would be even further away.

 

Secondly, your point is ridiculous. So the people were wicked. This taints there gold and silver? Somehow the wickedness of a people makes their goods corrupt? As is usual with the Bible, this is just more myth-telling as the "god" of the Israelites tries desperately to prove that he is worth something ... tries to make himself better than the other local deities.

 

Third - Achan directly disobeyed an obvious command from God. This reveals the hard-heart of Achan; he cared nothing for the whole nation, he purposely and selfishly put them in a position of God's righteous judgment, which he knew could possibly happen - did Achan really think he could hide what he did from God? What does Achan think about God - that He's a man to be fooled and mocked?

 

If you take the Bible story to be true instead of a myth, then I suppose you are right. There was a command and Achan did not obey it. But the command itself is foolish. And the punishment for his disobedience is way out of line for the crime. This is one of the passages, among many, that show that, despite what the Bible says, god is NOT righteous and just at all! If this god were to exist at all people would have to conclude that he is a mental case, hell bent on hurting people for any cause while at the same time demanding that he loves them. If a human father emulated the god of the Bible, the heavenly "father", then he would find himself being arrested for any number of atrocities! And, yet, the Bible explicitly states that the believer is to model his conduct and character after this mythical being. That is scary!

 

Fourth - look at the position he put his family in, either they were willfully complicit in his crime, or he forced them to be accomplices in his sin. Either way - his family did not confront him or go to the leaders with this information - so they were essentially accomplices in Achan's crime.

 

Do you know this for a fact? Where does it state in this story that the family even knew what Achan had done? And, even if they did, do we have evidence that they did more than simply know that Achan had taken these things? Would a judge give the same sentence to the family (including his kids!) as to Achan, who actually did the "crime"? And, as indicated previously, is the punishment just for the crime committed? Let's say that my family is a good Christian family and next door to us is living a family of pagans. I warn my children not to have anything to do with them and definitely not to touch their stuff. One day one of my children comes home with a toy. I ask where he got it and he tells me from the pagans next door. His brothers and sisters were with him at the time. They didn't take it, but knew that this one son had. So then I kill all my children! They were warned! And the Bible tells me that a disobedient son is to be put to death! The other siblings had to go as well because they were, at the least, complicit in the crime! Oh the wonderful, righteous judgments of the loving, merciful and long suffering god!

 

Fifth - this act of disobedience was an insolent act, not a crime of passion - but Achan undoubtedly had decided that he would not obey the ban if he saw something he desired. His sin was like shaking his fist in God's face, spitting in God's face, an insistence that Achan is not accountable to anyone - least of all, God.

 

Talk about reading into the text. Nowhere, in any part of the text, do we get a glimpse into Achan's heart. For all we know he could have been busy about his duties when he saw a glimmer, investigated, saw the gold and took it on the spur of the moment. He could have been thinking, "How am I going to put my kids through college? Oh! Look! There's some gold! That would help!" So, for all anyone knows, his thoughts could have been the furthest thing from shaking his fist in the face of god. I hate when people try to make excuses for god's murders! It looks more like YOU are complicit with a crime than Achan's family was!

 

Sixth - note that Achan himself finally admitted his crime - he didn't voluntarily confess from guilt when it was announced that someone had sinned. Rather, he only admitted his sin after it was clear from supernatural means that revealed that he was the guilty party. Again - utter selfishness, along with disdain for all others.

 

Yep. Achan confessed. What would you do if the leader of the armies of Israel were standing at your door pointing a finger at you? In any case, the real problem here is not with Achan at all. It is with believing this story to be true and, if you do, justifying a god for murder and, all the while, claiming he is some kind of righteous judge! The punishment in no way fits the crime and, in fact, the punishment contradicts the very nature of this supposed god as revealed in the Bible. The Bible says that god is long suffering, infinitely good, full of mercy and forgiveness. The Bible says that he is willing that NONE should perish and that all should come to repentance. However, Achan is NOT given an opportunity to repent at all. His family is not either. There is no love, no long suffering, no good and no forgiveness shown in this story. As a result, this story, along with a myriad of others, contradicts what the Bible says about what god is supposed to be. Instead, here in this this story, god looks like a bully or a gang leader. He is the new local deity in the hood and it is his duty to make sure that people know it!

 

So in a word - Achan was essentially a psychopath - no remorse, no care for others, choosing only his personal gain even to the suffering of others.

 

I like how you so easily condemn the mental condition of Achan without any proof whatsoever. Again, the text does not share with us the heart of Achan or his thought processes. You are only reading into the text and giving god an excuse for killing people. This is sort of like someone trying to get a mass murderer aquited by stating the poor man was abused as a child. My conclusion is that the god of this passage is the one that is a psychopath. It is god how has no remorse, does not care for others and chooses his own personal gain even to the suffering of others. Let's look at that last one for a moment: choosing his own personal gain even to the suffering of others. What was the real deal in this story? God wanted to be obeyed and honored (personal gain). He was not in the case of Achan so he allowed all sorts of suffering. In fact, if we read the verses before the ones quoted in this thread, we find that god allowed the Israelites as a whole to suffer a defeat at the hands of the people of Ai because of what Achan had done. Did the Israelite men who died in the battle for Ai deserve to be punished for the "sin" of Achan? They did not even know what had happened! God had to come to Joshua and tell him what was going on! So Israel's defeat at Ai was orchestrated by god because of his own selfishness. He, god, caused the suffering of people who were faithfully obeying him because he was so miffed at one man! Talk about petty! Talk about being a psychopath! It is the god of the Bible that is nuts!

 

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

As pointed out above, his wisdom and majestic holiness is that of a lunatic who wantonly kills because things don't go according to his selfish orders! And, even if we say we believe the Bible and believe that we are "polluted by sin" the Bible says that man is created in the image of god and that he ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. According to this, man has some idea of what is good and what is not. Therefore, we can, indeed, look at something and know it is right or wrong. And we know, therefore, that what god supposedly did to Achan, to Achan's family and to the people of Israel when they went to fight Ai was morally and absolutely wrong! Sin clouded perceptions or not!

 

I am coming to the conclusion that it is you, sir, who is the psychopath, not Achan. And I say this because if you see holiness, majesty and justice in the god of the Bible, then you have to be completely off your rocker!

 

SO although, it's difficult for me to understand some things that God does, I remind myself that God is so unlike me in His infinite holiness, justice, righteousness, etc - that I BY FAITH entrust Him to do what is right. But I also remind myself that I cannot understand His infinite mercy, love, grace, etc to forgive sin that is freely confessed.

 

What you mean to say is that FAITH you excuse his wrong doings and convince yourself that somehow they are right doings. What you mean to say is you have purposefully blinded yourself to truth and reason in order to excuse a god that is anything but just, holy, loving, righteous and merciful.

 

I know that this answer is probably not completely satisfying - but I hope it does give some context and causes you to think again about this and other occurences of tragedies in the Scripture. Severe judgment is never a pleasant thought or event - yet God is not inconsistent in His Person. There is a reason for all that occurs, and God remains who He is despite Man's protestations.

 

No. You did not give any context to the story at all. Instead you blatantly MADE UP a mindset for Achan that is simply not spoken of, one way or the other, in the Bible at all. The simple facts, the simple CONTEXT of the story is that Achan disobeyed the command to not take the money. He took the money. When confronted, he confessed. He and his entire family were killed for the crime. That is the story.

 

Now let's bring this home. Does not the Bible say that god is the same yesterday, today and forever and that god does not change? Therefore, the god of the story in Judges quoted here (the story of Achan) is the same god today and he behaves the same way. So let's say you disobey in some fashion (and I double D dare you to say you have never disobeyed god!) and, as a result of your disobedience, your church shows up at your doorstep accusing you of your disobedience. They tell you that god had told them that there was disobedience in their congregation and that they had gone to each member's home until god supernaturally pointed out the culprit (which is yourself). Confronted by your congregation, you confess your disobedience. Then the congregation burns your house down to the ground with you, your family and your pets inside, killing all of you. Does this sit well with you?

 

Oh! Wait! Jesus changed all that, didn't he? His death on the cross makes things somehow different, right? But I thought god was the same in all ages? Weren't the Israelites god's chosen people ... a royal priesthood ... a nation of priests to him? Aren't these same titles given to the church as well?

 

In any case, if you were an honest person, you would admit that you would have at least some problem with your congregation burning you and your family alive for your own disobedience. So why is it so easy to condemn Achan?

[ThreeD]

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

Do you really believe this shit? We cannot hurt God in anyway; yet he must punish us "sinners" in the worst way imaginable. Only a sick, Orwellian mind can call such a being "good". Only a perverted mind can call such a religion "good news".

 

This parts sticks out like a sore thumb; "His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution."

You fucking tard! You say we are sinners by nature, then you say God must punish us for acting according to that nature. And you have the fucking nerve to say your god is just???? LOL!

 

Yes sinners will be punished. God is perfect and holy and man is dead in his sins. You have it right...God has made vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. Justice would be everyone being condemned to hell without a chance. God doesn't have to save or be fair to anyone as many people want Him to be. But God in His grace an mercy draws men unto himself, and removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. The Gospel commands all men to repent of their sins and believe on Christ, the one that came to save all that God has given Him. Man's main problem is that God is Holy, righteous, and just yet man is sinful.

 

If you have a problem with God being this way and that's one of the many reasons why you don't believe, then hey, there's nothing I can do.

[nightflight]

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

Do you really believe this shit? We cannot hurt God in anyway; yet he must punish us "sinners" in the worst way imaginable. Only a sick, Orwellian mind can call such a being "good". Only a perverted mind can call such a religion "good news".

 

This parts sticks out like a sore thumb; "His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution."

You fucking tard! You say we are sinners by nature, then you say God must punish us for acting according to that nature. And you have the fucking nerve to say your god is just???? LOL!

 

Yes sinners will be punished. God is perfect and holy and man is dead in his sins. You have it right...God has made vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. Justice would be everyone being condemned to hell without a chance. God doesn't have to save or be fair to anyone as many people want Him to be. But God in His grace an mercy draws men unto himself, and removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. The Gospel commands all men to repent of their sins and believe on Christ, the one that came to save all that God has given Him. Man's main problem is that God is Holy, righteous, and just yet man is sinful.

 

If you have a problem with God being this way and that's one of the many reasons why you don't believe, then hey, there's nothing I can do.

 

The Stockholm Syndrome is strong with this one.

[ThreeD]

Finally, we need to try to understand the infinite, magestic holiness of God. We cannot - since we're sinners by nature and all that we think, do , & say is polluted by sin. SO we tend to "understand" why someone would sin, and we indentify with that character flaw, even making excuses for the sin that we and others commit. However, God cannot do that, He cannot approve of sin - any sin. He can use sin and turn it around and accomplish good by it (which reveals His wisdom and power) - but He does not and cannot condone sin. His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution.

 

Do you really believe this shit? We cannot hurt God in anyway; yet he must punish us "sinners" in the worst way imaginable. Only a sick, Orwellian mind can call such a being "good". Only a perverted mind can call such a religion "good news".

 

This parts sticks out like a sore thumb; "His infinite holiness and justice demand just retribution."

You fucking tard! You say we are sinners by nature, then you say God must punish us for acting according to that nature. And you have the fucking nerve to say your god is just???? LOL!

 

Yes sinners will be punished. God is perfect and holy and man is dead in his sins. You have it right...God has made vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. Justice would be everyone being condemned to hell without a chance. God doesn't have to save or be fair to anyone as many people want Him to be. But God in His grace an mercy draws men unto himself, and removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. The Gospel commands all men to repent of their sins and believe on Christ, the one that came to save all that God has given Him. Man's main problem is that God is Holy, righteous, and just yet man is sinful.

 

If you have a problem with God being this way and that's one of the many reasons why you don't believe, then hey, there's nothing I can do.

 

The Stockholm Syndrome is strong with this one.

 

[Astreja]

Speaking ex officio as an agnostic goddess who is Just Fine with imperfection and uncertainty...

 

...I think that a god who can't handle "sin" is fatally flawed.

[ThreeD]

Speaking ex officio as an agnostic goddess who is Just Fine with imperfection and uncertainty...

 

...I think that a god who can't handle "sin" is fatally flawed.

I would say so as well. But God handles sin and allows it to happen for His own purposes (not causes sin)

[Astreja]

But God handles sin and allows it to happen for His own purposes (not causes sin)

I see no functional difference between "handling" sin and "allowing sin to happen" and "causing" sin.

[florduh]

I have a question for ThreeD. I don't want to argue, I'm just curious.

 

Obviously you came to the beliefs you espouse here via Biblical teachings. How did you conclude that the Bible is a correct and reliable set of instructions and explanations for our universe? In other words, how do you know it is the only true holy text and that you are interpreting it correctly (or had it correctly interpreted for you)?

[Antlerman]

Yes sinners will be punished.

You mean tortured, right? Punishment serves a purpose, hell does not.

 

God is perfect and holy and man is dead in his sins.

And since we're created in his image......

 

It's really a sad, unhealthy doctrine that sees humans as dead inside. Funny, I'd say it like this, "Man is alive with love". Isn't that true too? Or do you only see darkness in this world. So what's God done for your worldview? Doesn't sound very hopeful to me.

 

You have it right...God has made vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath.

Puppets are we? Or do we have freewill? If puppets, then there is no justice. Such a big sharade and we're the victims of a sadists play time, plucking the wings off flys and frying ants with magnifying glasses. Or is God love? Which is it?

 

 

Justice would be everyone being condemned to hell without a chance.

Uff dah!! That's pretty harsh! A projection of your anger at the whole word coming through there which you're attributing to God as the voice of the weak? Doesn't sound like much light in your life. Pretty gloomy view of the world. What happened to make you this way, if I may ask?

 

But God in His grace an mercy draws men unto himself, and removes the heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh.

Again, uff dah! I'm not feeling very drawn to such a gloomy, dark diety as you're describing! On the contrary, I'm seeing the heart of stone finding appeal in that type of god. Dismissal of all life in humanity, tortures those created as puppets for his pleasure, showing generousity randomly in order to make himself look good, creating such a pointless place as hell.... my god, you'd think this was some petty Greek god you're talking about here. Which one is it? Wait, no, it's more primitive than that. It must be some volcano god or something. Let me see.... Sinai.... desert.... ancient Canaanite gods.... is it Jehovah? I thought he evolved into a god of love. Is this some sort of resurrecting dead deities thing?

 

The Gospel commands all men to repent of their sins and believe on Christ

Commands? "I command you to love me!" Say that to your wife sometime. I dare you.

 

Man's main problem is that God is Holy, righteous, and just yet man is sinful.

... being made in the image of God and all....

 

If you have a problem with God being this way and that's one of the many reasons why you don't believe, then hey, there's nothing I can do.

I do have a problem with that. You betcha! If there is a real God, I'm sure he respects those who do have a problem with that. And here's the real kicker, he would then probably pity and consider lost those who see him as some sort of petty tribal god, who sees the world as dark and damned and hated. I can't help but believe that this has to have some negative psychological impact on people who think like this.

 

BTW Achan's kids being murdered was justified??? What about their damned goats and dogs and cattle? Were they guilty too? For goodness sake. How primitive. Let's give up our sense of social justice and replace it with this one! Good idea? Let's put it this way, would you vote "yes" at the polling station if that was on the ballot in November? No? What does that say? Get real...

[Guest kcdad]

I have a question for ThreeD. I don't want to argue, I'm just curious.

 

Obviously you came to the beliefs you espouse here via Biblical teachings. How did you conclude that the Bible is a correct and reliable set of instructions and explanations for our universe? In other words, how do you know it is the only true holy text and that you are interpreting it correctly (or had it correctly interpreted for you)?

 

Hans Christian Anderson would be proud of you!

[ThreeD]

I have a question for ThreeD. I don't want to argue, I'm just curious.

 

Obviously you came to the beliefs you espouse here via Biblical teachings. How did you conclude that the Bible is a correct and reliable set of instructions and explanations for our universe? In other words, how do you know it is the only true holy text and that you are interpreting it correctly (or had it correctly interpreted for you)?

 

Well this ill be my last response as I've been in the Lion's Den on another thread so sorry for not responding but to answer your qeustion...

 

Every other religion, or holy book talks about a god, and man reaching that god. You can reach that god, or reach heaven by doing enough good works or deeds. Basically man is working for it. The bible is the only book that says that man cannot do enough good works to reach good or become righteous on God's standards. No amount of good works will get him there. The bible is the only one in which God sacrificed himself to save man and give Him a way to God free from works and only by grace. Also by the Holy Spirit.

 

Also by researching and going back to the original greek texts, and claims of kings noting Jesus and everything he did.

[Antlerman]

Also by researching and going back to the original greek texts, and claims of kings noting Jesus and everything he did.

What? Are you saying there are kings back then whose writings speak of Jesus? Wow. I never knew that. Can you point me in the right direction? Which king? Which text? I anxiously await this information.

[Caretaker]

If you have a problem with God being this way and that's one of the many reasons why you don't believe, then hey, there's nothing I can do.

 

My disbelief has NOTHING TO DO whatsoever with my review of God as being a good or bad entity. I simply find belief in anything supernatural to be nothing more than superstition. Just like you probably don't believe in astrology.

[MathGeek]

Also by researching and going back to the original greek texts, and claims of kings noting Jesus and everything he did.

 

So Jesus preached that men should advocate peace AND war at all times. No wonder the history of Western Civilization is filled with imperialist expansionism subsequent to 312 A.D.

 

Divine Right of Kings, anyone?

[florduh]

I have a question for ThreeD. I don't want to argue, I'm just curious.

 

Obviously you came to the beliefs you espouse here via Biblical teachings. How did you conclude that the Bible is a correct and reliable set of instructions and explanations for our universe? In other words, how do you know it is the only true holy text and that you are interpreting it correctly (or had it correctly interpreted for you)?

 

Well this ill be my last response as I've been in the Lion's Den on another thread so sorry for not responding but to answer your qeustion...

 

Every other religion, or holy book talks about a god, and man reaching that god. You can reach that god, or reach heaven by doing enough good works or deeds. Basically man is working for it. The bible is the only book that says that man cannot do enough good works to reach good or become righteous on God's standards. No amount of good works will get him there. The bible is the only one in which God sacrificed himself to save man and give Him a way to God free from works and only by grace. Also by the Holy Spirit.

 

Also by researching and going back to the original greek texts, and claims of kings noting Jesus and everything he did.

 

Thanks for your response.