I Believe In Re-incarnation, Now Im Really Confused!

[Vendredie]

I don't really believe in reincarnation, particularly when it's "obvious" in kids. Kids do get into stuff and sometimes make up their own languages (or codes, or whatever) without parents knowing.

 

I believe in reincarnation to a point, in which people do live other lives after leaving another, but don't have any memory of said life and grow and develop in a different way than they did in the previous life.

[florduh]

With 2 billion people on the planet a hundred years ago, and 6 billion here now, there must be a lot of people running around without any past lives, and more born every day.

[Ouroboros]

With 2 billion people on the planet a hundred years ago, and 6 billion here now, there must be a lot of people running around without any past lives, and more born every day.

Their souls come from the animals.

[Vigile]

With 2 billion people on the planet a hundred years ago, and 6 billion here now, there must be a lot of people running around without any past lives, and more born every day.

 

Elohim, the mormon god, has been gittin' busy with his harem making soul babies to keep up with demand.

[Vigile]

With 2 billion people on the planet a hundred years ago, and 6 billion here now, there must be a lot of people running around without any past lives, and more born every day.

Their souls come from the animals.

 

Yeah, remember all those buffalo killed off during the 19th century?

[florduh]

Now it makes sense. Thanks.

[SWIM]

Now it makes sense. Thanks.

 

LOL don't forget about the good old aliens out there, we could be seeing new souls due to aliens reincarnating here! hehe

 

sounds good on paper anyway... lol

[Ouroboros]

Yeah, remember all those buffalo killed off during the 19th century?

And the dinosaurs. (I used to be a dromaeosauridae. Watch out! )

[Sokudo Ningyou]

I figure science may one day figure it out, so it isn't necessarily impossible. Maybe reincarnation is just like water returning to water. Do I believe in it? 'eh, I'm open to the possibility. Though I doubt even if you were reincarnated (and as someone else pointed out, there's so many damn people being born it's a likelihood) you'd really know about it.

[par4dcourse]

Most people see the half hour in a doc's waiting room as intolerable, and you want endless lifetimes?

[Rev R]

probably won't be seeing Jun anytime soon. To the issue of his son, the topic drifted out of our conversations as topics tend to do. I think it eventually got written off as a thing that makes you go "hmmm".

 

A couple of things that I would like to mention about reincarnation/rebirth.

 

Some Buddhists posit that the cycle of death and rebirth (samsara) is made up of six realms of existence. They are heaven, wrathful spirits, human, animal, hungry ghosts, and hell. Unlike Christianity that maintains heaven and hell are permanent, beings are reborn through these six realms. A being in the hell realm may be reborn into the human realm. The realm into which one is reborn is determined by one's volitional actions.

 

You might be asking yourself about now, "how can someone who is being continually eviscerated perform any action in order to secure a better rebirth?" The smart fellas who thought this up also supplied a sort of metaphsyical currency called "merit". In theory it almost acts as a credit account, good actions accumulate merit and bad actions withdraw or cancel some merit out.

 

It goes a little something like this. Here in the human realm we can perform certain actions such as reciting sutras or chanting dharanis to accumulate merit on behalf of those in the lower realms.

 

Of course the question remains that if the self is a collection of interdependent and interpenetrated aggregates thereby lacking any sort of separate or permanent existence, what exactly is reborn in these realms? A question that in my eleven years of practice has no reasonable answer other than a metaphorical view.

 

What does a belief in reincarnation/ rebirth offer? It does propose a mechanic of why one's lot in life is good or bad. By and large I think the idea appeals to people since it's in essence a "do-over". Haven't been the best person? That's ok here is a second chance. In a way the belief can offer hope that one can move up in the cosmic order...whatever that is.

 

There is also the idea of social control. The idea of reincarnation is firmly tied to caste systems. It provides a cosmic factor as to why some people are "better" than others. You are a ditch digger because you were an asshat in a past life and I'm a king because I am in possession of far more virtue than you. It's a really crappy way to look at the world.

[.god]

it is also part of asian religions that if you accumulate bad ksrma in this life you will be reincarnated as some sort of animal. with animals being lower on the reincarnation heirarchy than humans. i belive there is a scale for types of animals as well.

 

all too often i've seen the belief in karma and past lives as a judtification for apathy and poor coping skills. e.g. i deserve to be stuck in this rotten marraige because i must have done something really bad in my past life to my husband in his past life. or a child with a mental disorder is diagnosed as having his issues stem ftom a variety of acts comitted in his past life. underperformance in school due to etc-etc in a past life. winning an award due to hood karma ftom a past life. and these are all real life examples. it's wacky superstitious stuff and really screw with people's minds, self esteem in a way similar to christianity.

 

anyway i would be curious how reincarnation would work. you pretty much have to subscribe to the concept of a soul right. and the disassociation of the mind and memories from the electric signals in the gray matter.

 

one day i hope i can get a cold reading by derren brown. now that would be cool!

[Deva]

all too often i've seen the belief in karma and past lives as a judtification for apathy and poor coping skills. e.g. i deserve to be stuck in this rotten marraige because i must have done something really bad in my past life to my husband in his past life. or a child with a mental disorder is diagnosed as having his issues stem ftom a variety of acts comitted in his past life. underperformance in school due to etc-etc in a past life. winning an award due to hood karma ftom a past life. and these are all real life examples. it's wacky superstitious stuff and really screw with people's minds, self esteem in a way similar to christianity.

 

Of course people can understand karma in this way, but that is a misunderstanding. This is like predestination, which karma is not. Karma is changeable at any time. Karma is intentional action. It is not traceable; it is not destiny, and it is not a cosmic reward and punishment system.

[BlueGiant]

In response...

 

2) I can't believe this world is allowed to suffer so much evil by the CREATOR, I can only come up with the fact that we as souls, spirits, whatever, chose and planned out certain things and knew the consequences and were allowed to come to this life, but i cant believe the CREATOR would perpetrate pain and suffering and be all Loving, the Xtian concept never made sense to me.

 

You can always take my assumption about gods, in that they are finitely powerful (moreover they don't function all that well, or directly in this part reality), as well as rejecting the notion that they are "good" or all "loving." From there it is a small step to "shit happens." Then again, I have a highly variable concept of deity. As far as choosing, or needing lessons learned, etc, well I can kind of see that, especially if one takes it that life on this plane is something of training or a game (or maybe doing things just for the experience).

 

3) For the 3rd time now, I have been "read" and told about a specific past life event with my soul mate, in exact detail, there is no possible way for any of them to have known each other...no way at all, this has spanned 4 years and 1 person locally, another in a neighboring city and today's reading (free of charge by a person concerned with my wife and my struggles) from a lady in Arizona.

 

I've been told that I am old, relatively intact, am unreadable and "oh sh!t" to name a few. Cool that you were able to get specific information on past lives. Out of curiosity, what form did the readings take?

 

4) With this information I am left with believing in a CREATOR and Re-Incarnation...now where to go from there only time will tell because Im not about to up and join some religion because of this, I am interested in learning ABOUT a few but I am not pledging allegiance into anything for a very very long time, if ever. I want to be a free spirit kinda guy but with a rational philosphy of life to put things into some basic perspective.

 

Personally, reincarnation has had a certain elegance, to me. A recycling of information, if you will, the Lethe notwithstanding. As far as the increasing population, I've encountered beliefs that souls don't necessarily stay whole, but can fragment and recombine post-mortem-ante-birth, be it just fragmenting, or stripping it down and leaving that which doesn't suck.

 

Out of further curiosity, do you believe that a creator should exist or is it more that some plan, some inherent organization must exist? And I mean this in a completely serious way, have you considered irrational philosophies as well?

[.god]

Of course people can understand karma in this way, but that is a misunderstanding. This is like predestination, which karma is not. Karma is changeable at any time. Karma is intentional action. It is not traceable; it is not destiny, and it is not a cosmic reward and punishment system.

 

I don't think they see it as predestination per se, more as an extension of the impact of karma over several lives, still changeable but not resetting at the beginning of each life, what you do in this life will impact your next life. Isn't that how the order of reincarnation in buddhism works? The reason why a human may be reincarnated as an animal or a hungry ghost?

 

I'm not sure about the definition of karma myself, but google is my friend =). Here's what i came up with:

 

 

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/karma -

1. often capitalized : the force generated by a person's actions held in Hinduism and Buddhism to perpetuate transmigration and in its ethical consequences to determine the nature of the person's next existence

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karma -

The philosophical explanation of karma can differ slightly between traditions, but the general concept is basically the same. Through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. The results or 'fruits' of actions are called karma-phala. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.

 

http://www.new-age-spirituality.com/selfhelp/karma.html -

Karma is not about punishment. In Spirit there is no absolute right or wrong. It is about experience and fulfillment of purpose. The idea that we are punished for sins is a man-made form of social control. A highly advanced soul may choose to incarnate into a crippled body, or as an insect, if that is beneficial to their progress.

Working with Karma

 

Karma influences our current life in two ways. First, we carry karma as part of our life conditions, though not all of our conditions are karmic in origin. Karma is the part of our conditions that represents unfinished business and other residues from the past. Second, we create future karma continually with every thought and action.

 

Perhaps it is a difference between Eastern religion and New Age treatments of karma. As far as I know most of the "monks" of religious buddhism embraced by the lay person of East Asian countries follow the first 2 definitions of karma. Like the common Western superstitions of "break a mirror and it's seven years bad luck" or "knock on wood", the cliche expressions of "oh this must be due to a crime committed in a past life" are a part of the languages of Asian cultures.

 

I'm not sure about the source of new-age definitions, my impression is that a lot of it Eastern religious mythology reinterpreted by Westerners?

common people

[Deva]

all too often i've seen the belief in karma and past lives as a judtification for apathy and poor coping skills. e.g. i deserve to be stuck in this rotten marraige because i must have done something really bad in my past life to my husband in his past life....

 

By predestination I mean that people use karma as an excuse for their problems. They feel that they are fated to be in a certain situation because of the past, and can't change it, such as the above example. That would be where the apathy comes in. I don't think they are viewing it in the correct way. At least I know that is not correct by the Buddhist version. I know there are differences with the new age version and the Buddhist idea and the Hindu idea, which makes it complicated and confusing.

 

The Hindu caste system came about by the idea that a person's station in life is destined to be a certain way, either priest, warrior, lower caste, etc., and this cannot change for life. One is born into it. Great way for the upper caste to control people, too.

 

I think the New Age version basically got started in the late 19th century U.S. with Madame Blavatsky and the Theosophists, who had some knowledge of Buddhism and Hinduism but not entirely accurate knowledge. They combined Hindu and Buddhist views on reincarnation along with karma and spiritualism and made their own version. They have this idea that there is a steady spiritual evolution upward and that humans cannot regress to animal forms. A person is always reborn in human form until they learn whatever lessons they need to. Then they go to devachan, which is the Theosophical idea of heaven. All very nice.

 

This idea is different from Buddhism. In Buddhism humans can go to animal forms or other types of forms. There are also lower realms. All is temporary.

 

The truth and the driving force behind rebirth is what is called karma. Karma is often totally misunderstood in the West as fate or predestination; it is best thought of as the infallible law of cause and effect that governs the universe. The word "karma" literally means "action" and karma is both the power latent within actions, and the results our actions bring.

 

There are many kinds of karma: international karma, national karma, the karma of a city, and individual karma. All are intricately interrelated, and only understood in their full complexity by an enlightened being.

 

What does karma mean? It means that whatever we do, with our body, speech, or mind, will have a corresponding result. Each action, even the smallest, is pregnant with its consequences...

 

Although the results of our actions may not have matured yet, they will inevitably ripen, given the right conditions. Usually we forget what we do, and it is only long afterward that the results catch up with us. By then we are unable to connect them with their causes.- "The Tibetan Book of Living and Dying" Sogyal Rinpoche

[Pantonality]

I finally read all the way to page 3 of an interesting thread. Good stuff and for the most part very reasonable discussion.

 

I consider myself a theist of the Walschian variety. In other words I read Neale Walsch’s (NDW) Conversations with God and liked it. Since that time I’ve read a bunch of other stuff and come up with a bunch of ideas. First of all Walsch is a pantheist, that means he believes everything is God, all the good, all the bad, and everything has a reason.

 

Those inclined to believe in science I have no disagreement with. The problem comes when we discover that there’s a lot science doesn’t know, such as what makes up 90 – 95% of the universe. The Large Hadron Collider may explain some of that, but I’d guess it’s results will answer some questions and pose many more. That’s just the way science is. I saw we don’t know what 90-95% of the universe is because that’s how much of the universe is believed to be either dark matter or dark energy. When it comes to dark matter or energy nobody has any clue, it could be God or it might not be. Nobody knows. So with that explanation behind me here’s what I’ve made up,… er synthesized from my various investigations.

 

The personal God of the Bible (buybull) is fiction, but there is a creative energy or spirit that is conscious. We know science says that matter and energy are equivalent and can be neither created nor destroyed. So if this creative spirit is all that existed before the Big Bang then it’s all that exists now. I’ve read many near death experiences and a feature common to many is the sense that those who have died experienced a sense that everything is connected. This would tend to support the notion that everything is God. I am not aware of any near death experiences that suggest otherwise.

 

So if God is all that exists then why is the world so screwed up (the problem of evil)? My answer is to suggest we think differently about the world we live in. Our experience in this life is temporary, yet if everything including is God then our lives are indeed eternal. I suggest (believe) that there is a spiritual realm which we inhabit when we’re not alive in this relative universe.

 

So here’s a philosophical question, if you’re everything that exists and you’re perfect how do you know you’re perfect??? The answer is you can’t, because you have no frame of reference. Nothing exists which is imperfect. In order to appreciate the perfection of God an imperfect universe had to be created. God divided his/her energy into a multitude of little bits and we choose the circumstances of our lives and we inhabit that little bit of the total for a while then return to the spiritual realm. Then when life in perfection gets boring (as it always will) we choose another life circumstance to incarnate (reincarnate) into. Sometimes, the memory doesn’t get completely wiped clean in the process and we remember past lives. So to the OP perhaps that explains your reading regarding reincarnation.

 

I’d be the first to admit this all sounds very fanciful, but none of it contradicts science as we know it. It also explains the problem of evil (which according to this philosophy doesn’t really exist since we choose the circumstances of our lives). It’s one way of explaining why our world and the universe is the way it is.

 

Steve