Neon Genesis Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Some of the xtians at my parents' church claim they were able to convert people to xtianity just from getting them to read the bible. Our old preacher claimed to have memorized the entire bible and my parents' church is supposed to start this thing later this year where the entire church will read the bible in 90 days and discuss the scriptures in Sunday school. Supposedly some guy who lives around here claims to have been an agnostic who converted to fundamentalist xtianity simply from reading the bible all the way through without any xtian apologetics at all (I forgot what his name was) and so he started this program where all the churches around here have started reading the whole bible together. I just don't see how it's possible that you could have never heard xtian apologetics in your life if you've been living in the bible belt unless you've been living under a rock. I also get pissed off at xtians' hypocrisy because they'll make fun of people who know the bible better than most xtians do but don't believe in it because believing the bible is true is apparently more important than actually knowing what it says yet when xtians claim to have read the whole thing, suddenly they're praised as being super holy people. And I always question whether they really were agnostic or just how much of it they really did read because I can't understand how any sane and morally decent person can read the whole thing and still believe that it has no contradictions. Does anyone else get suspicious when a xtian claims to have read the entire bible but still believes the bible is the perfect word of God? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white_raven23 Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Part of the catch of the 'read the whole bible' claim...is that TRUE....they really MAY have read it. But they only seem to have memory recall of the "good parts" of the damn book. I get tired of bringing up the bronze snake story...and getting an utterly blank look from the christians I've talked to who have "read" the book. I think I'm being nice! I don't expect them the have the whole book and every verse memorized verbatim...but I DO expect them to remember the content of the stories themselves! I've found a lot of people have trouble remembering what they read even when it's not the bible. I overhear a lot of people talking about getting halfway through a book before realizing they've read that book before. This is not something that has ever happened to me, but it seems to happen to plenty of folks, so it must not be that unusual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 At my old church they had an aduly Sunday School type course that went through the whole bible. I was too young when they did this to be involved but my parents (and I think my grandparents) all went. It was over many weeks (months), had this study guide and then the discussion sessions. So as I recall they all went through the whole thing but with all this extra stuff going on they had plenty of opportunity to "explain" the text as they went along. It would be like the bronze snake that WR mentions. They read it. It's in context but then they have the discussion group that "explains" the bronze snake. How? Well, they would mention the original story they all just read. They get attacked by snakes because they're bad people (they disobey). Then they would talk about how this "foreshadows" the crucifixion. Now how long is the unfamiliar original going to stick in your head compared to the really familiar passion story? It's like a form of hypnosis or brainwashing (indoctrination is a good word). Now do this with all those old stories. Pretty soon you don't remember many of them at all but you do know that the OT is just full of examples, prophecies, or "foreshadowing," for this "jesus" fellow. Then when you get to the NT it's just a matter of reinforcement. Most of the people there know this stuff so they really drill this stuff in. I'm pretty sure I have this stuff in a box somewhere (when my grandparents died I ended up with some stuff that I didn't sort out and my grandma saved all of these things even if they were decades old). mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Here is what I can't get over. The way many of the fundies have made an entire life out of ONE BOOK I can go into any church this Sunday and here the beginning of a sermon and finish it for the pastor. They continue the recycling year after year. And what about those 50 year xtians? They have surely heard nothing fresh or new in the last 49 years. I swear it is group therapy for the delusional. As for reading the whole bible, they are all lying. No one has read the geneologies in Numbers word for word Will reading the bible convert someone? Who knows? If a person is particularly vunerable, they could possibly convert to any religion based upon a "sacred" document. I have wanted to do an experiment using some other ancient text. For example, The Illiad or The Odyssey. Then have weekly meeting and discuss that ONE book for years. Crazy? Sounds like the local church to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Let them pretend to read it all--someone is bound to see the bullshit. Not only the bronze snake (I thought it was gold) but the chariots of iron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 9, 2009 Share Posted February 9, 2009 Let them pretend to read it all--someone is bound to see the bullshit. Not only the bronze snake (I thought it was gold) but the chariots of iron. It was a bronze snake... But imagine being in church, Sunday school, or bible study one day. Suddenly it dawns on you "This is all total bullshit." Do you stand up and say to everyone else "Hey! This is all total bullshit!" They'd just drag you out (and then condemn, mock, or something from the pulpit after you were gone). Only crazy and/or demonic people call bullshit on their thing. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 I was invited a couple weeks ago to attend a bible study at a friend's church because he said, "if you read and study the bible you will fall in love with jesus." I respectfully denied. However, I have been thinking about going because I would like to be educated a bit more as to why and how someone can read the bible and "study' it and still show up for church the next sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnceConvinced Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Yep, they may read it, but no doubt they have no clue about what most of it is saying and most of it's so boring, who'd remember it anyway. And of course once you get to the nasty and stupid bits you sort of put up a mental wall that stops you from really taking it in. It's best just not to think too hard about that stuff and assume you've misinterpreted it in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gobbler Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 As for reading the whole bible, they are all lying. No one has read the geneologies in Numbers word for word Actually I did years ago. Yet my eyes were pretty much glazed over afterwards! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted February 10, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2009 "if you read and study the bible you will fall in love with jesus." I suppose keeping those god-blinders on 24/7 does the trick for those who don't want to see the truth. That old slogan, "Read the bible, become an atheist" sums it up for me. The story of Jephthah and his daughter is one of many buybull stories that opened my eyes. Judges 10:6-11:40. Yeah, nice guy that gawd is....can't you just feel the love? Jephthah vowed to God that if he is given victory over the Ammonites, he will make a burnt offering with whoever comes out to greet him when he returns victorious. 29Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah, and he passed through Gilead and Manasseh, and passed on to Mizpah of Gilead, and from Mizpah of Gilead he passed on to the Ammonites. 30And Jephthah made a vow to the LORD, and said, "If thou wilt give the Ammonites into my hand, 31then whoever comes forth from the doors of my house to meet me, when I return victorious from the Ammonites, shall be the LORD'S, and I will offer him up for a burnt offering." (Judges 11:29-31) So God gave him the Ammonites and twenty more cities. 32So Jephthah crossed over to the Ammonites to fight against them; and the LORD gave them into his hand. 33And he smote them from Aroer to the neighborhood of Minnith, twenty cities, and as far as Abel-keramim, with a very great slaughter. So the Ammonites were subdued before the people of Israel. (Judges 11:32-33) When he came home, his daughter came out to meet him. She was his only child. 34Then Jephthah came to his home at Mizpah; and behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances; she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter. (Judges 11:34) He was shocked because he could not take back his vow. 35And when he saw her, he rent his clothes, and said, "Alas, my daughter! you have brought me very low, and you have become the cause of great trouble to me; for I have opened my mouth to the LORD, and I cannot take back my vow." (Judges 11:35) Who did he expect? A stranger? She understood his dilemma and promised to cooperate. Jephthah honored her one final request for two months leave so she may bewail her virginity. 36And she said to him, "My father, if you have opened your mouth to the LORD, do to me according to what has gone forth from your mouth, now that the LORD has avenged you on your enemies, on the Ammonites." 37And she said to her father, "Let this thing be done for me; let me alone two months, that I may go and wander on the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my companions." 38And he said, "Go." And he sent her away for two months; and she departed, she and her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains. (Judges 11:36-38) She returned after two months and Jepthah kept his vow. 39And at the end of two months, she returned to her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had made. http://www.usbible.com/Sacrifice/jephthah.htm This story really bothered me as a little girl. I thought, "Gee god, you couldn't even find a lamb to sacrifice like you did in the Abraham and Isaac story. Why's that? Oh, I know... Isaac's a boy........." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ Fuego ♦ Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Sorry to rain on your rant a bit, but I don't think that the bronze snake was all that hard to interpret, since the New Testament does so directly in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." and in 2 Cor 5:21 where X became sin for us. I was one of those Christians that became so by reading the whole Bible, though in retrospect I glossed over the nasty bits to keep the salvation that I was convinced I had. I don't think I was an idiot, just someone that was scared and looking for protection. I was only about 13 at the time, so I didn't have a lot of experience or wisdom built up. So I was tricked, like many of the rest of you. Once I was able to objectively revisit the stories, I saw them as exactly that - stories. I think a bit of compassion is due to those still under the emotional bondage of the Bible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator buffettphan Posted February 10, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted February 10, 2009 I was one of those Christians that became so by reading the whole Bible, though in retrospect I glossed over the nasty bits to keep the salvation that I was convinced I had. I don't think I was an idiot, just someone that was scared and looking for protection. I was only about 13 at the time, so I didn't have a lot of experience or wisdom built up. So I was tricked, like many of the rest of you. Once I was able to objectively revisit the stories, I saw them as exactly that - stories. You have hit the nail on the head. People are tricked into believing that these fictional stories are factual and The True Word Of God. Their everlasting souls depend on believing whatever particular version of The Truth is being preached. That's why the authors of the bible instruct us to "become as little children". Who easier for those in charge to manipulate than innocent children who want nothing more than to please? It's abuse. I think a bit of compassion is due to those still under the emotional bondage of the Bible. Yes, absolutely, yes. But perhaps not here on this thread in the Rants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 The story of Jephthah and his daughter I've argued until I was blue in the face with someone that insisted that she didn't die but instead went to work in the temple and everyone so very sad because Jephthah would have no one to give his inheritance to since she had to remain a virgin. So year after year everyone wept to remember Jephthah's daughter the temple virgin that served their wonderful "god" and Jephthah the mighty warrior who had no one to leave his stuff to (so why not the temple and his wonderful "god?"). It makes no sense that going to serve "god" in the temple would cause such pain (I don't even recall the cult of YHWH having temple virgins). It makes no sense that not having an heir (since that wasn't part of the story and her husband wouldn't really be his heir like a true son would have been) would cause such pain. Not to the extent that it became a memorial day. But I never made any headway so to this day she simply became a temple virgin and his stuff went to the state when he died. Oh the humanity! mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted February 10, 2009 Share Posted February 10, 2009 Sorry to rain on your rant a bit, but I don't think that the bronze snake was all that hard to interpret, since the New Testament does so directly in John 3:14-15 "Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life." and in 2 Cor 5:21 where X became sin for us. You do remember the part where the bronze snake eventually became an idol in the temple so they had to destroy it, right? mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 This story really bothered me as a little girl. I thought, "Gee god, you couldn't even find a lamb to sacrifice like you did in the Abraham and Isaac story. Why's that? Oh, I know... Isaac's a boy........." That story bothers me now. How could you be so cruel. But then again... maybe his daughter was a little bitch anyway... The bronze snake is a great one - Don't you dare worship that Golden Calf....but hold on while I craft up this bronze snake...and then Boo! I tell you all that you're damned for her. As someone just reading the bible and the stories for what they are I kind of think the Jews of that time had a mental capacity problem. After wandering for years across the desert and about to die of thirst and screaming to Moses that "your god sucks" and then Moses beats ona rock and water comes out. Then later on they get hungry And they say "your god sucks"and he beats on the ground and mante shows up. and then they make it close to the promise land and he tells them - You guys behave and I'll be right back - the guy that just fed you wants a meeting with me about some laws - So he climbs up the mountain and sure as shit - by the time he gets back they've constructed a golden calf. And his brother Aaron, the guy that said to Pharaoh, "LET MY PEOPLE GO" is standing there next to this golden calf. I'm sorry - and I will profess right now that if I am ever stuck in the desert with a guy named moses and if I'm thirsty and he beats a rock and says "God did it" I'm a believer - I'll start listening. You don't have to show me anymore tricks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 http://children.calvarychapel.com/site/pdf/Old/Curr052.pdf Nifty little coloring thingie for kids at the Old Calvary Chapel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OpheliaGinger Posted February 11, 2009 Share Posted February 11, 2009 As someone just reading the bible and the stories for what they are I kind of think the Jews of that time had a mental capacity problem. After wandering for years across the desert and about to die of thirst and screaming to Moses that "your god sucks" and then Moses beats ona rock and water comes out. Then later on they get hungry And they say "your god sucks"and he beats on the ground and mante shows up. and then they make it close to the promise land and he tells them - You guys behave and I'll be right back - the guy that just fed you wants a meeting with me about some laws - So he climbs up the mountain and sure as shit - by the time he gets back they've constructed a golden calf. And his brother Aaron, the guy that said to Pharaoh, "LET MY PEOPLE GO" is standing there next to this golden calf. I'm sorry - and I will profess right now that if I am ever stuck in the desert with a guy named moses and if I'm thirsty and he beats a rock and says "God did it" I'm a believer - I'll start listening. You don't have to show me anymore tricks. In defense of the Semitic people, I think the writers were self hating Jews. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted April 7, 2009 Author Share Posted April 7, 2009 There are some updates on this read the bible through in 90 days program. We're supposed to start doing the program next month but the xtians at my parents' church are such lying hypocrites. I was looking through the official site for this program we're going to do: http://www.biblein90days.org/welcome/ In the welcome introduction they talk about what the program is going to be like. The xtians claimed that just reading the bible through in 90 days can make you a xtian, just like this agnostic guy, so if even this agnostic can become a xtian, then you can too! Sounds like a crappy infomercial to me, but it's not just from reading the bible at all. Each participant reads on his or her own, then gathers once a week with other participants. The weekly meetings include guided small group discussion, activities, and a video lesson. For most people, the fellowship, accountability and material shared during the weekly meetings is CRUCIAL to their successfully reading the entire Bible.So, they're not even reading the entire bible by itself. They're reading it alongside what's apparently xtian apologetics. It's curious to me that they point out that reading the xtian apologetics is crucial (even putting the word crucial in capital letters) to finishing the program, which seems to indicate that those people that read the bible as a whole for what is without the apologetics saw through the bullshit. The introduction explains why the program works For MANY reasons. Here are a few: * TIME FRAME: 90 days vs. a year (or more) * READABILITY: large print, easy to read translation * COMMUNITY: weekly meetings for support, fellowship, accountability and knowledgeable insight * SUPPORT MATERIALS: we provide just enough additional materials to keep participants engaged in reading the Bible, but no more. We don't want reading support material instead of the Word. * A LOWERING OF BARRIERS: by tending to many of the PRACTICAL aspects of reading the Bible, we foster an environment in which the participant is MORE LIKELY to recognize the leading of the Spirit that he or she read and be transformed by the Word. Notice that they say that one of the reasons why it works is through additional materials to keep you engaged in reading the bible, aka that's secret code for xtian apologetics. It's not reading the entire bible itself like they claim that makes this program works. It's their shitty apologetics and support groups to guilt trip you to keep you in the fold. The supposed former agnostic who started this program, Ted Cooper Jr has his testimony at the bottom of the page and this is what really pisses me off. In 1999, I read the Bible for the first time. I was 43 years old, and happily agnostic when I began reading. Halfway through the Bible, I became a believer. It changed my life. In 2001, I created a course to help other people read the Bible. The curriculum began as a Wednesday night class at my local church. Response to the course was so great -- as was the number of successful finishers -- that we offered it again. Same response, same high rate of success. He admits here that he only read the bible half-way through before deciding to become a Christian. He didn't even read it all the way through first before making his decision. How can you decide to become a Christian from only reading the bible half-way through? At that point you're just barely getting through the OT and nowhere near close to the NT with the actual teachings of Christianity. It also doesn't sound like good critical thinking skills to me if you jump to the conclusion the bible must be the word of God if you don't even read through it all the way. It just pisses me off because of how much a lying bastard this guy is. He claims reading the bible in 90 days can make you a Christian yet even though he's the one running this program, he didn't even read it all the way through himself first. And you're not even reading the bible by itself. You're reading it alongside crappy apologetics. Now I question whether he really was an agnostic at all since this whole thing seems like a big sham. It just pisses me off that my church and this program are preaching about how so wonderful and perfect the bible is that just reading the bible itself in 90 days can make you a xtian when it's not the bible itself that's converting people. But I say bring it on. It'll be interesting to see how many people make it through before they start having doubts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 This reminded me of when I was still a xian and I wanted to read the entire bible. I started--surprise surprise--with Genesis. I made some remark to my mom one day about how hard it was to read and she told me to skip the OT and go to the NT. I wondered why she said that. Now, I realize why: I think she knew that if I read the OT, that I would probably become an atheist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vendredie Posted April 7, 2009 Share Posted April 7, 2009 I've never read the Bible outide of Revelation, Romans, Exodus, and bit and pieces of other books. I like the Skeptic's Annotated Bible, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I swear it is group therapy for the delusional. As for reading the whole bible, they are all lying. No one has read the geneologies in Numbers word for word You can swear if you like, and I'm not sure where all I read biblical geneologies. But I have read geneologies in my time. And yes, I did read them word for word, verse by verse, chapter by chapter. You might say I was bored. Maybe I was. Or maybe I was trying to get a handle on who lived in this long ago and far away time and place. Reading geneologies gave me the feel that these were real people I was reading about--people who were born, lived, and died. Warm-blooded, living, breathing human beings like me and everybody around me. Besides, I've always been fascinated by names. Once in a long while I came across a name that also appeared in a story about some (supposedly) historical event. Geneologies helped me put the person into context. The Bible was the reference book I had so I read the Bible. No apologetics in our house. At least, none that I was encouraged to read or felt inclined to read. I just wanted to understand the Bible. Where I got bogged down was the laws, the prophecies, and the endless wars. So no, I never read the entire Bible but I had a pretty good idea what was in it. And yes, some of the Christians on the forums mock me when I quote the Bible. I haven't yet figured out why. It's as though they think they've got one on me, or maybe they think they caught me with my pants down or something crazy like that. They seem to have this cut-and-dried idea of what atheists believe and then they argue from that strawman position. When we don't respond as their religion dictates that atheists must respond, automatically, that's a serious character flaw on our part. Yeah right. The mind of the Christian is beyond finding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I've read the whole bible (including the lame geneologies) and it was a prime reason why I shitcanned Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryfka Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I didn't read the WHOLE bible, but I read enough of it to decide that it was pretty ridiculous. Some of the things I read in the Old Testament just shocked me. I realized why we never focused on anything but the same "good" stories in my Sunday school classes-- they didn't want us to deconvert for all the violence and hatred... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I dunno...reading the NT first and then reading the OT isn't such a bad idea. You start with the gospels. Most people know the basic story. Then you go through Paul and his crap "Some of this is okay but is this dude bipolar? I mean he's all love this and that in one sentence and you're all a pile of shit in the next." Then the other epistles where you start to think "Who are these guys?" Then you top it off with Revelation and a little "This guy is bat shit crazy." Moving back to the OT after that you get the magic animals, nonsense science and the endless tedium of the lineages and rules right up front with a few familiar stories tossed in to help break up the boredom. If you get past all that you get nothing but "Israel/Jacob has failed their god. They must suffer. Listen to me, his prophet and kill someone or else. Good job on the killing. Now suffer awhile longer while god cools down. Okay. He's better. Come home and be his special people forever." Then "Hi. I'm another prophet. I know god said things were cool forever and ever but you've pissed him off again. Heed my words while we repeat all that same shit from the last guy." I think this order makes more sense since people forget the nonsense of the OT they gloss over and focus on the "touchy feely lovey" crap of the NT (the stuff they remember when their eyes aren't glazed over). So doing it in reverse order seems a better way to go so the NT is a memory by the time they read the silly OT crap. Also, as for the stuff about reading the whole bible with the help of these groups. They usually don't read the bible straight through. They read a passage. Read a parallel passage. Read some other passage. Read this. That. This over here. Then this. Back and forth. Back and forth. And weave their way through the whole thing. At least the one I saw did just that. It's like reading G.Matthew where he shows the "prophecies" come true so then you read that stuff in "context." Or Paul refers to the OT so then you go read it but only jumping back and forth between Paul. You do make it all the way through but you're so messed up by the end you have no idea what you've read. It's really a great system since it almost "implants" the message they want in place of whatever is really there. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest QuidEstCaritas? Posted April 8, 2009 Share Posted April 8, 2009 I think one day I might just deliberately jerk off with torn out pages from four things: The Bible The Catechism of the Catholic Church Revolution Counter Revolution True Devotion to Mary Like I dunno, just pop some extasy-I have never done that btw-or something, and spend all day jerking off with the pages of those books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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