The Problem Of Mass Killing In The Bible

[Guest ColossusOfDestiny]

As LNC has suggested, this topic probably should be in a separate thread.

 

 

This does not mean that the Bible is "worthless." I've maintained, with some success I think, that the Bible is still an important landmark in ethical thinking. I don't deny that Jesus lived, taught, and died, more or less as the Biblical record said he did. I respect and admire Jesus for his human message. I like to think of myself as being a "Christian" in the limited sense that my worldview grows out of a Christian upbringing. I recognize that I share some kinship with Christians, but I just don't see how evangelicals get around the problem of genocide in books that I've mentioned.

 

I'm particularly interested in the LNC and End3's take on this, but anyone is free to jump in.

 

First of, Hi, My name is Jon and I quit being a Christian last year after 30 years of believing. I came to realize last year that the bible is both esoteric and exoteric. The exoteric story is purposefully confusing and will take you in cicles forever. The esoteric meaning is clear and is intended for the initiates of what we could call a "myster religion" for lack of a better word. Basically the bible is a manual on how to navigate through the current and ancient global "system" of currency slavery.

 

See the story of Jacob and Esau as a reference. Here you are told the real rules of the game. Use cunning and guile when you steal and you will get the blessing.

 

The bible is a book that came out of Babalyon around 300 BC. The people touting it called themselves Jews because as they claim everyone related to some arbitrary anscestor they had were all special. Their claims to history are totally unfounded though as you will find no mention of a country called Isreal on any Greek or Egyption map dating before 300 BC.

 

The bible and the Jews are the invention of the ancient ruling class of elites that were stationed at the time in Babolyn. The book is intended to assist in the mental slavery of the profane (that is you and me) and lay out the rules and reinforce the same old symbolism this elite sect had used for melinia, ie astral theology.

 

The brutality of the bible merely reflects the values of its writers. It is time we understand that the people who own our countries, our religions, and if you asked them even ourselves don't particularly like us and see us as meat on the table for their use.

[Guest ColossusOfDestiny]

As LNC has suggested, this topic probably should be in a separate thread.

 

I respect and admire Jesus for his human message. I like to think of myself as being a "Christian" in the limited sense that my worldview grows out of a Christian upbringing. I recognize that I share some kinship with Christians, but I just don't see how evangelicals get around the problem of genocide in books that I've mentioned.

 

I would also mention that the eternal truths attributed to jesus can be found almost word for word in writings predating his supposed life. Including these eternal truths is merely the bait on the hook to get you to buy into the rest of the brutal currency based slavery paradigm. You can't make it all about guile and deciet and selfishness and sell it to the guilable brainwashed profane. Mr. and Mrs. profane need to feel good about their place in the global currency scam and have hope to keep them slaving away year after year while they can see with their own eyes the whole system is corrupt and rigged against them. But maybe that loving jesus guy who told the truth will save him. He is in the authorized "good book" after all.

 

Ya, what jesus said was eternally tru. If we all treated each other better the world would be a better place to live in. We don't really need god to come down and tell us that to know that now do we? Why do we treat each other so badly, primaily because of our fixation on the idea of money as a means to survival. This is the key. Money is an idea someone had, it isn't real. Our belief in it is very real though and the maintenance of this belief will have all untold mondetay resources of church and state there to back it up on spades.

 

Someday when the elite have us all brianchipped they won't have to bother with silly things like church state or jesus because they will have perfected that which was left imperfect. I would like to believe avioding that was possible but again maybe god does exists and he hates us because when you look at our prospects in our current situation it is pretty grim.

[shantonu]

As LNC has suggested, this topic probably should be in a separate thread.

 

 

This does not mean that the Bible is "worthless." I've maintained, with some success I think, that the Bible is still an important landmark in ethical thinking. I don't deny that Jesus lived, taught, and died, more or less as the Biblical record said he did. I respect and admire Jesus for his human message. I like to think of myself as being a "Christian" in the limited sense that my worldview grows out of a Christian upbringing. I recognize that I share some kinship with Christians, but I just don't see how evangelicals get around the problem of genocide in books that I've mentioned.

 

I'm particularly interested in the LNC and End3's take on this, but anyone is free to jump in.

 

First of, Hi, My name is Jon and I quit being a Christian last year after 30 years of believing. I came to realize last year that the bible is both esoteric and exoteric. The exoteric story is purposefully confusing and will take you in cicles forever. The esoteric meaning is clear and is intended for the initiates of what we could call a "myster religion" for lack of a better word. Basically the bible is a manual on how to navigate through the current and ancient global "system" of currency slavery.

 

See the story of Jacob and Esau as a reference. Here you are told the real rules of the game. Use cunning and guile when you steal and you will get the blessing.

 

The bible is a book that came out of Babalyon around 300 BC. The people touting it called themselves Jews because as they claim everyone related to some arbitrary anscestor they had were all special. Their claims to history are totally unfounded though as you will find no mention of a country called Isreal on any Greek or Egyption map dating before 300 BC.

 

The bible and the Jews are the invention of the ancient ruling class of elites that were stationed at the time in Babolyn. The book is intended to assist in the mental slavery of the profane (that is you and me) and lay out the rules and reinforce the same old symbolism this elite sect had used for melinia, ie astral theology.

 

The brutality of the bible merely reflects the values of its writers. It is time we understand that the people who own our countries, our religions, and if you asked them even ourselves don't particularly like us and see us as meat on the table for their use.

 

I don't know whether to ignore your seeming anti-Semitism or to address it. I guess I've chosen to address it, and I reject it. Modern Jews do not believe in the literalness of the genocidal stories and the rabbis have done their best to make sure that no Jew ever uses the stories in Joshua and 1 Samuel to justify genocide. Elie Wisel has commented on this point (I saw him in an interview). He said that the rabbis made it clear that no one knows who the Amalekites were, and thus Jews never say that for example Palestinians are Amalekites.

 

Incidentally, the Jews are not the only religion to have embarrassing texts. The Hindus and Muslims also have outrageous and detestable scriptures. My criticism of 1 Samuel has nothing to do with modern Judaism. Jews don't understand the OT the way that Christians do. I'm talking about the Christian OT, not the Jewish Tanach.

[Guest ColossusOfDestiny]

As LNC has suggested, this topic probably should be in a separate thread.

 

 

This does not mean that the Bible is "worthless." I've maintained, with some success I think, that the Bible is still an important landmark in ethical thinking. I don't deny that Jesus lived, taught, and died, more or less as the Biblical record said he did. I respect and admire Jesus for his human message. I like to think of myself as being a "Christian" in the limited sense that my worldview grows out of a Christian upbringing. I recognize that I share some kinship with Christians, but I just don't see how evangelicals get around the problem of genocide in books that I've mentioned.

 

I'm particularly interested in the LNC and End3's take on this, but anyone is free to jump in.

 

First of, Hi, My name is Jon and I quit being a Christian last year after 30 years of believing. I came to realize last year that the bible is both esoteric and exoteric. The exoteric story is purposefully confusing and will take you in cicles forever. The esoteric meaning is clear and is intended for the initiates of what we could call a "myster religion" for lack of a better word. Basically the bible is a manual on how to navigate through the current and ancient global "system" of currency slavery.

 

See the story of Jacob and Esau as a reference. Here you are told the real rules of the game. Use cunning and guile when you steal and you will get the blessing.

 

The bible is a book that came out of Babalyon around 300 BC. The people touting it called themselves Jews because as they claim everyone related to some arbitrary anscestor they had were all special. Their claims to history are totally unfounded though as you will find no mention of a country called Isreal on any Greek or Egyption map dating before 300 BC.

 

The bible and the Jews are the invention of the ancient ruling class of elites that were stationed at the time in Babolyn. The book is intended to assist in the mental slavery of the profane (that is you and me) and lay out the rules and reinforce the same old symbolism this elite sect had used for melinia, ie astral theology.

 

The brutality of the bible merely reflects the values of its writers. It is time we understand that the people who own our countries, our religions, and if you asked them even ourselves don't particularly like us and see us as meat on the table for their use.

 

I don't know whether to ignore your seeming anti-Semitism or to address it. I guess I've chosen to address it, and I reject it. Modern Jews do not believe in the literalness of the genocidal stories and the rabbis have done their best to make sure that no Jew ever uses the stories in Joshua and 1 Samuel to justify genocide. Elie Wisel has commented on this point (I saw him in an interview). He said that the rabbis made it clear that no one knows who the Amalekites were, and thus Jews never say that for example Palestinians are Amalekites.

 

Incidentally, the Jews are not the only religion to have embarrassing texts. The Hindus and Muslims also have outrageous and detestable scriptures. My criticism of 1 Samuel has nothing to do with modern Judaism. Jews don't understand the OT the way that Christians do. I'm talking about the Christian OT, not the Jewish Tanach.

 

I am not anti-semitc. I don't really believe there is any difference between anyone we are all genetically the same to a degree of making distinctions meaningless. Irish, Jewish, Persian, are all words making distinctions that don't have any basis in reality.

 

I am saying I don't really believe there is any such thing as a Jewish person other than their belief that they are Jewish. I am saying that history has not happened the way it has by accident and the elite of this world are certainly not Jewish.

 

I don't think the concept that the Bible has been used for purposes of maintianing the masses is hardly novel or anti-semitic.

[shantonu]

As LNC has suggested, this topic probably should be in a separate thread.

 

 

This does not mean that the Bible is "worthless." I've maintained, with some success I think, that the Bible is still an important landmark in ethical thinking. I don't deny that Jesus lived, taught, and died, more or less as the Biblical record said he did. I respect and admire Jesus for his human message. I like to think of myself as being a "Christian" in the limited sense that my worldview grows out of a Christian upbringing. I recognize that I share some kinship with Christians, but I just don't see how evangelicals get around the problem of genocide in books that I've mentioned.

 

I'm particularly interested in the LNC and End3's take on this, but anyone is free to jump in.

 

First of, Hi, My name is Jon and I quit being a Christian last year after 30 years of believing. I came to realize last year that the bible is both esoteric and exoteric. The exoteric story is purposefully confusing and will take you in cicles forever. The esoteric meaning is clear and is intended for the initiates of what we could call a "myster religion" for lack of a better word. Basically the bible is a manual on how to navigate through the current and ancient global "system" of currency slavery.

 

See the story of Jacob and Esau as a reference. Here you are told the real rules of the game. Use cunning and guile when you steal and you will get the blessing.

 

The bible is a book that came out of Babalyon around 300 BC. The people touting it called themselves Jews because as they claim everyone related to some arbitrary anscestor they had were all special. Their claims to history are totally unfounded though as you will find no mention of a country called Isreal on any Greek or Egyption map dating before 300 BC.

 

The bible and the Jews are the invention of the ancient ruling class of elites that were stationed at the time in Babolyn. The book is intended to assist in the mental slavery of the profane (that is you and me) and lay out the rules and reinforce the same old symbolism this elite sect had used for melinia, ie astral theology.

 

The brutality of the bible merely reflects the values of its writers. It is time we understand that the people who own our countries, our religions, and if you asked them even ourselves don't particularly like us and see us as meat on the table for their use.

 

I don't know whether to ignore your seeming anti-Semitism or to address it. I guess I've chosen to address it, and I reject it. Modern Jews do not believe in the literalness of the genocidal stories and the rabbis have done their best to make sure that no Jew ever uses the stories in Joshua and 1 Samuel to justify genocide. Elie Wisel has commented on this point (I saw him in an interview). He said that the rabbis made it clear that no one knows who the Amalekites were, and thus Jews never say that for example Palestinians are Amalekites.

 

Incidentally, the Jews are not the only religion to have embarrassing texts. The Hindus and Muslims also have outrageous and detestable scriptures. My criticism of 1 Samuel has nothing to do with modern Judaism. Jews don't understand the OT the way that Christians do. I'm talking about the Christian OT, not the Jewish Tanach.

 

I am not anti-semitc. I don't really believe there is any difference between anyone we are all genetically the same to a degree of making distinctions meaningless. Irish, Jewish, Persian, are all words making distinctions that don't have any basis in reality.

 

I am saying I don't really believe there is any such thing as a Jewish person other than their belief that they are Jewish. I am saying that history has not happened the way it has by accident and the elite of this world are certainly not Jewish.

 

I don't think the concept that the Bible has been used for purposes of maintianing the masses is hardly novel or anti-semitic.

 

Maybe so, but the Bible's worst abuses have been at the hands of ethnic gentiles. People with last names like Winthrop, Colon, and Bush.

[Guest ColossusOfDestiny]

I guess what I am saying is we are all people of the basic same stock. Brutality is done by people, not ethnicities. Personal responsibilty has to come before identification with any race religion or anything for that matter.

 

I wish I had never mentioned the J word now because I am not accusing any group of doing anything. I am saying individuals created the bible for a purpose. All kinds of things have been done by individuals in its name.

 

I was responding the the idea that "the bible is still good even though it isn't true". Who is it good for? is the question I was trying to ask and answer.

[mwc]

1: Based on whose concept of morality? Some people hold that the moral (noble, brave, right) thing to do is completely wipe out the enemy. Isn't it possible that God could hold that to be the moral thing to do as well?

This works the way it always works. Those who are doing the judging are whose concept of morality will be used.

 

So when explorers went down and wound up in the big pot of boiling soup. It was the tribesmen's morals that were used to do the judging.

 

When the Spaniards killed off all the natives wherever they roamed. It was the Spaniards morals that were apparently superior.

 

When the Nazis were judged at Nirenberg I can tell you no one really cared about the Nazi's morals.

 

Again, when Saddam had his day in court it wasn't Saddam's moral code that was used to condemn Saddam to his fate.

 

According to the bible it won't be a human moral code that sends humans to their doom either.

 

Isn't it strange how this works? It might seem that way, but it's not. Kings, tyrants and everyone else may scream out "How dare YOU judge ME!" But that's simply the way it is.

 

To look at it another way we judge the "devil," this "Satan," as "evil." And how? How dare we judge a heavenly creation using human morals. How can we possibly understand such things? But we do. We judge this thing, that must surely be beyond our lowly understanding, as the worst of the worst. The lowest of the low. Beneath all thing including ourselves. How dare we. But to judge other heavenly creations? To say that is beyond us? Not so. If we can understand such evil then we can understand good. The bible says we gained that understanding long ago. So to judge both good and evil is well within our grasp. Even on a heavenly level. And it's our moral code that this god has been accused of violating and it is with this moral code it will be judged. Just like all the examples above. How dare we? How dare it.

 

2: You assume the victims were innocent. Again, what moral code do you use to declare them as innocent and who are you to make such a declaration.

I normally steer clear of these discussions because one of the rules of studying history is to not judge history by our modern rules and morality. To simply accept it as-is. But sometimes it's fun to play along because people start asking questions like this.

 

The question is easy to turn around. Who placed this "god" in this same position? Well, the answer is..."god." Obviously, this is a poor answer because looking at what I wrote above we have "god" judging people by his morals and not by their morals. If, as LNC asserts, this "god" is perfect (meaning unattainable in the larger outlook) then we have a problem. No one can live up to this standard and these people did nothing wrong other than not living up to a standard they could never achieve and not being part of the "chosen," or select, group. They could not win. So they were utterly destroyed. It doesn't matter if they raped babies all day long or if they sat around knitting there is no way to achieve the impossible. They had to be destroyed by this "god's" moral code. The bible makes this clear. Noah's flood. And still everyone was doing evil. He couldn't be appeased. It's not us. It's an impossibly high standard that a "god" expects a human to perform on the level of a "god." This shows a limitation in the level of critical thinking on the part of the god.

 

So we get a "sacrifice" in the form of the "jesus." This doesn't work as explained but nonetheless. It simply "hides" the problem from the "god." It doesn't actually fix anything. It simply allows, in a manner of speaking, the "god" to look down and see himself, instead of us, and not become irate. This is a patch. A quick fix. Nothing more. It's also illogical because it shows the "god" is capable of being tricked, by himself at least. He stills uses his own moral code to judge rather than adjusting his expectations to fit the situation. You expect an animal to behave as an animal. You expect a human to behave as a human. A god a god. You don't expect a human to behave as a god or a god as an animal. These things are logical and reasonable but escape the reasoning of this particular god. He is flawed.

 

mwc

[shantonu]

I guess what I am saying is we are all people of the basic same stock. Brutality is done by people, not ethnicities. Personal responsibilty has to come before identification with any race religion or anything for that matter.

 

I wish I had never mentioned the J word now because I am not accusing any group of doing anything. I am saying individuals created the bible for a purpose. All kinds of things have been done by individuals in its name.

 

I was responding the the idea that "the bible is still good even though it isn't true". Who is it good for? is the question I was trying to ask and answer.

 

No problem. I'm sure you didn't have any bad intentions.

[Guest Jerboa]

Exactly, I'm assuming a 21st Century mindset. Humans are wonderful. We can learn from our mistakes. We can see from all the suffering the Holocaust caused that, you know, killing people is bad. If you can't see that--if you need a theory about that--then so much the worse for you.

 

I sure would like to know how you got from 'The Holocaust' to 'killing is bad'.

 

The people responsible for the Holocaust (those witnessing it first hand) didn't seem to come to the conclusion that it was a problem. In fact, they worked on ways to be more efficient at the killing. The wonderful human lesson they learned is how to kill other humans quicker. Oddly enough, we ended that nonsense by being more efficient killers than the Nazis.

 

So I'm totally lost on how you reached the conclusion that 'killing is bad' or that 'we can learn from our mistakes' when all the evidence seems to indicate that we've learned nothing at all.

[Guest Jerboa]

What is your point? As for "punishment" I'm not sure that babies deserve punishment for anything. Go back and read 1 Samuel 5:3.

 

Your argument was dependent upon the presupposition that the babies did NOT deserve punishment.

If you aren't sure about that now then the argument fails.

 

Thankfully, you are no longer in the position of declaring absolute innocence for people who lived 3000+ years ago.

I thought maybe for a bit there that you were claiming to be a god or something.

[Guest Jerboa]

1. Ummm . . . modern standards morality. The Geneva Convention, etc. C'mon. If you don't think that's a legitimate source of morality, so much the worse for you.

 

2. The presumption seems to be that they were innocent. After all, they were only babies. Read the text. What could babies be guilty of? Being human babies? Is that a crime? Maybe it is in your Book. So much the worse for your Book.

 

#1: Regarding the Geneva Convention: The Geneva Convention is a set of rules chiefly concerning how people act in a WAR. Excuse me, but I don't consider a bunch of stuffed suits sitting around a table dreaming up rules for war to be a very legitimate source of anything other than gas. While they are at it maybe they should come up with a list of gentlemen's rules for rape.

 

#2: Regarding Babies: You claimed earlier that you don't know if they were innocent or not, and now we are back to this. Even if you could handle that problem I doubt you could explain why innocent matters. Evolution whacks the innocent all the time - are you going to stop believing in evolution because it kills the innocent?

[Guest Jerboa]

I woudn't worship an evil god just because he could put the smack down. Maybe you would. If so, go right ahead.

 

Here is your argument as I understand it:

 

1: Omni-max is a really mean god.

2: I personally detest bullies.

3: Therefore, I'll go stick my finger in Omni-max's eye.

 

I'm gonna have to call you "full of poo" for such a silly argument.

 

Do you regularly punch police officers?

Why don't you fly to Tehran and tell President Whack-job that his mother dresses him funny?

Go find a grumpy biker and kick his arse while you're at it.

 

You, who lives in fear of other humans, isn't going to grow a pair and take on an Omni-max.

You'd fold like a house of cards like any other rational human being would do.

(Unless, of course, you happen to be Chuck Norris)

[Guest Jerboa]

Oh, and all the Christians out there who think they can distance themselves for the OT God need to sit down and read the Book of Revelation. As it turns out, Jesus Christ comes back and wipes out entire nations in a way that makes the loss of some Hittites look like child's play.

 

Like Father, like Son.

 

Ooooh . . . I'm sooooo scared. Jesus is gonna come on cloud and ride around in a chariot and whatnot. We've been waiting around a long time for tha. Keep waiting if that makes you happy.

 

That would be addressed to Christians who like to answer these kinds of challenges with some weird God Evolved approach.

If you had reading comprehension skills you'd realized I tossed you a bone there.

[Guest Jerboa]

You don't expect a human to behave as a god or a god as an animal. These things are logical and reasonable but escape the reasoning of this particular god. He is flawed.

 

God: Well, that wraps up judgment. I've got all the bad people stuffed into hell and I've got all the good people milling around heaven....

 

Angel: Uh...Lord...

 

God: Yes?

 

Angel: There is one file left to review.

 

God: Oh? Let's have it.

 

Angel: As it turns out a one "mwc", formally of exchristian.net has made the claim that you are "flawed".

 

God: *laughes*

 

Angel: No disrespect meant here but I think he makes a good case.

 

God: What? How so?

 

Angel: He claims that the whole incarnation thing was really just a bunch of smoke and mirrors.

 

God: *shuffles nervously*

 

Angel: ...he seems to think it's really just.. uh, well... just "God tricking God" as it were.

 

God: He figured that out all on his own?

 

Angel: Apparently.

 

God: I knew that website was going to be trouble.

 

Angel: What happens now?

 

God: Oh, I dunno... now that the secret is out I probably should just destroy and recreate everything again.

 

Angel: Oh dear.

 

God: This could be fun. I think this time around I'm gonna put in some alien spaceships among the fossilized bones to really screw with 'em.

[Neon Genesis]

Ok, is Jerboa here to discuss or is he just here to be an obnoxious troll?

[shantonu]

Ok, is Jerboa here to discuss or is he just here to be an obnoxious troll?

 

To troll certainly.

[freeday]

Ok, is Jerboa here to discuss or is he just here to be an obnoxious troll?

 

To troll certainly.

 

It was rather entertaining to say the least.

[shantonu]

I woudn't worship an evil god just because he could put the smack down. Maybe you would. If so, go right ahead.

 

Here is your argument as I understand it:

 

1: Omni-max is a really mean god.

2: I personally detest bullies.

3: Therefore, I'll go stick my finger in Omni-max's eye.

 

I'm gonna have to call you "full of poo" for such a silly argument.

 

Do you regularly punch police officers?

Why don't you fly to Tehran and tell President Whack-job that his mother dresses him funny?

Go find a grumpy biker and kick his arse while you're at it.

 

You, who lives in fear of other humans, isn't going to grow a pair and take on an Omni-max.

You'd fold like a house of cards like any other rational human being would do.

(Unless, of course, you happen to be Chuck Norris)

 

How do you know that I am not Chuck Norris?

 

Omni-max is a little bitch. He's going to wait until I'm dead to mess with me. What a sucka. If he were a real god, he's face me right now while I have my body intact.

[mwc]

I'm saved for last? Because the flawed god (I can rhyme) forgot about me? And he keeps his info in file folders? He really does have problems.

 

I'm flattered to discover that I'm the real reason behind the new creation. You can thank me for the New Heaven and New Earth bitches!

 

mwc

[Abiyoyo]

Ooooh . . . I'm sooooo scared. Jesus is gonna come on cloud and ride around in a chariot and whatnot. We've been waiting around a long time for tha. Keep waiting if that makes you happy.

 

What is the one difference between today and the past; in waiting for Jesus to come back?

 

 

I feel the fire, the heat. I see the flames, I'm gonna roast! :ohmy: