Christians:

[Guest Zoe Grace]

One of the most inconsistently applied principles within Christianity is the concept of free will.

 

Free will is often used as a rationale for the concept of Hell. "Hell" isn't so "bad" suddenly when it's not god's fault. When you CHOSE to go there.

 

See, supposedly your free will is more important to god than your salvation. I used the analogy with a christian the other day of a parent allowing their child to have the freewill to go play in traffic. No good and loving parent does that. We have laws and rules even for adults. It's because freewill isn't always the most important thing. Safety comes first. We all have "limited freewill" at best. Allowing someone the free will to harm themselves IMO is unethical. Especially if you are wiser than them and can help them.

 

We don't allow suicidal people to kill themselves...we don't give them that free will, we help them...we try to stop them. Biblegod shouldn't have to TRY if he's god. It's not that hard.

 

A christian gave me the analogy of a lifeguard trying to save the swimmer but the swimmer won't allow himself to be saved so the lifeguard can't save him. I told the christian that that's a false analogy because biblegod supposedly IS all powerful therefore you cannot thwart his will. The only reason anyone goes to hell is because god wants them to. period. God cannot have everything if what god wants is contradictory. Either god can give everyone total free will to "choose" hell or he can save everyone. Apparently he wants people to have free will MORE than he wants them to be saved. (NOW let's please ignore for a moment that free will is never ever stated in the bible as the way things are. everything seems to be somehow compelled and orchestrated by god. all i can say is at least the calvinists are intellectually honest. even if vile.)

 

The Christian also gave me the analogy of someone in prison...the door to their cell has been opened but they don't believe it...they can't for whatever reason believe it (this was after I told him belief was not a choice), the end result is still the same, you still stay in that cell. I replied that that too was a false analogy because we don't punish the person for not believing the door is open and they are free. According to Christian theology...if we follow that analogy...biblegod chooses to torture people for eternity simply because they are victims within their own mind and cannot believe the door is opened.

 

In fact...we as sane human beings wouldn't just LEAVE the person in the cell with their own faulty beliefs anyway. We would send in a few medical professionals to work with the individual and help them to reach understanding of their freedom.

 

 

BUT...is freewill REALLY all that important to god?

 

When a christian gets to heaven do they still have free will? If not...then why the hell would biblegod choose to allow them freewill to choose hell if he was going to take it from them anyway. If they DO have freewill in heaven then they could conceivably make a mistake/sin and go to hell. Since there would be no forgiveness IN heaven...else why can't you just confess when you die to begin with. No, no second chances in heaven. The bible is very clear there will be no sin in heaven, so ONE sin and you go to hell. Hmmm...neither option seems very noble or good to me. Is it perhaps a big funny game for biblegod...just see how long it takes him to get EVERYONE in hell. It would match the character of the bloodthirsty tyrant in the old testament.

 

A second problem with free will is the christian who arrogantly says; "If you are an ex-christian now, you were never really a christian to begin with...you CAN'T ever leave."

 

Well, isn't that a nice big case of stockholm syndrome. CAN'T leave? What happened to my free will? So I can't sincerely believe in something and later decide I was wrong and leave? Once I'm in I'm a lifer? So I have no free will then? Once i'm in I forfeit it?

 

If someone wants to say that anyone who leaves Christianity was never really a Christian then I would like to posit that there ARE no true Christians...because how the hell do you know you are "truly saved" if many who truly believed and felt they were saved left the faith, proving they never WERE saved.

 

The simple plan of salvation seems to get more and more complex the more brain cells you use to evaluate it.

[kevin]

Apparently god has given us free will to either chose him, or reject him and go to hell. That is not free will, that's blackmail.

 

Kevin:

[Kay]

Apparently god has given us free will to either chose him, or reject him and go to hell. That is not free will, that's blackmail.

 

That's duress - and according to the law of contracts, any contract that is 'voluntarily' signed by a party under duress is void and unenforceable. Our laws recognize that a action taken under duress is not voluntary.

[Guest Son of Belial]

I was on the Christian section of a forum once. I was actually having a rather intelligent discussion with the people there, because they agreed not to bring "free will" into the debate. I told them ahead of time that the free-will thing is a bullshit copout and I was leaving if someone started pushing it.

 

Well, they were cool about it and pretty much left it out, though we talked about it a little, in terms of defining it. They all agreed that "free will" was defined as having the ability to choose good OR evil, as you wish.

 

So I asked them if, being no evil in Heaven, we would be stripped of free will in Heaven.

 

Just about that time(and we'd been having a nice discussion for a couple weeks) this obnoxious Christian jumped in and started pushing free will, it's all our fault, blah blah blah. Basically all the bullshit arguments we hear every five minutes... and nobody on the forum had started spouting them the whole time I was there! It was amazing! It's sad that I get one decent conversation going with them and then one of them has to be an idiot.

 

So anyway, I basically told her to fuck off, and as I saw a fight beginning I ducked out.

 

About that time, someone took it upon themselves to explain about Heaven: see, Heaven would be free will, but WITHOUT EVIL! Wow! We'll have the free will to choose what we want to do, but nothing evil. So I guess we can choose whether we want the pizza or the hamburgers for lunch, or whether we sing or play the harp. I guess. I don't know, they didn't explain.

 

But the part that pissed me off was that they earlier defined free will as the ability to choose evil, THEN said Heaven was free will WITHOUT EVIL. You can't HAVE free will without evil according to their own definition!

 

I lurked a while to see the conversation. Without me there to ask questions and make them think, a whole week went by like this:

 

 

ChristLuvr777

Time: 5/7/2001, 05:26 PM

Yes, we will have free will in Heaven but there will be no evil. It will be great.

 

NoBraincells24

Time: 5/7/2001, 09:52 PM

Yes, I also agree that heaven will be great.

 

kissingass4christ

Time: 5/8/2001, 01:14 PM

Yes, it will won't it? I'll see you there

 

dickhead4jesus

Time: 5/8/2001, 07:43 PM

I can't wait 2 get 2 heaven. it will b awesome. i will love it and I will see all of u there 2

 

ChristLuvr777

Time: 5/10/2001, 02:21 AM

Yes it will be so great to see all of you in Heaven. With our free will with no evil. I love all of you my brothers and sisters in Christ : ) x <3 <3 <3

 

NoBraincells24

Time: 5/10/2001, 011:37 PM

Jesus is Lord. Heaven will be great!

 

 

 

I swear to fuck the entire week went by like that. It made me laugh, although I felt guilty about laughing. It's like laughing at someone with downs syndrome.

[Philosopher Dave]

One of the most inconsistently applied principles within Christianity is the concept of free will.

 

Free will is often used as a rationale for the concept of Hell.  "Hell" isn't so "bad" suddenly when it's not god's fault.  When you CHOSE to go there.

 

See, supposedly your free will is more important to god than your salvation.  I used the analogy with a christian the other day of a parent allowing their child to have the freewill to go play in traffic.  No good and loving parent does that.  We have laws and rules even for adults.  It's because freewill isn't always the most important thing.  Safety comes first.  We all have "limited freewill" at best.  Allowing someone the free will to harm themselves IMO is unethical.  Especially if you are wiser than them and can help them.

 

We don't allow suicidal people to kill themselves...we don't give them that free will, we help them...we try to stop them.  Biblegod shouldn't have to TRY if he's god.  It's not that hard.

 

A christian gave me the analogy of a lifeguard trying to save the swimmer but the swimmer won't allow himself to be saved so the lifeguard can't save him.  I told the christian that that's a false analogy because biblegod supposedly IS all powerful therefore you cannot thwart his will.  The only reason anyone goes to hell is because god wants them to.  period.  God cannot have everything if what god wants is contradictory.  Either god can give everyone total free will to "choose" hell or he can save everyone.  Apparently he wants people to have free will MORE than he wants them to be saved.  (NOW let's please ignore for a moment that free will is never ever stated in the bible as the way things are.  everything seems to be somehow compelled and orchestrated by god.  all i can say is at least the calvinists are intellectually honest. even if vile.)

 

The Christian also gave me the analogy of someone in prison...the door to their cell has been opened but they don't believe it...they can't for whatever reason believe it (this was after I told him belief was not a choice), the end result is still the same, you still stay in that cell.  I replied that that too was a false analogy because we don't punish the person for not believing the door is open and they are free.  According to Christian theology...if we follow that analogy...biblegod chooses to torture people for eternity simply because they are victims within their own mind and cannot believe the door is opened.

 

In fact...we as sane human beings wouldn't just LEAVE the person in the cell with their own faulty beliefs anyway.  We would send in a few medical professionals to work with the individual and help them to reach understanding of their freedom.

BUT...is freewill REALLY all that important to god?

 

When a christian gets to heaven do they still have free will?  If not...then why the hell would biblegod choose to allow them freewill to choose hell if he was going to take it from them anyway.  If they DO have freewill in heaven then they could conceivably make a mistake/sin and go to hell.  Since there would be no forgiveness IN heaven...else why can't you just confess when you die to begin with.  No, no second chances in heaven.  The bible is very clear there will be no sin in heaven, so ONE sin and you go to hell.  Hmmm...neither option seems very noble or good to me.  Is it perhaps a big funny game for biblegod...just see how long it takes him to get EVERYONE in hell.  It would match the character of the bloodthirsty tyrant in the old testament.

 

A second problem with free will is the christian who arrogantly says; "If you are an ex-christian now, you were never really a christian to begin with...you CAN'T ever leave."

 

Well, isn't that a nice big case of stockholm syndrome.  CAN'T leave?  What happened to my free will?  So I can't sincerely believe in something and later decide I was wrong and leave?  Once I'm in I'm a lifer?  So I have no free will then?  Once i'm in I forfeit it? 

 

If someone wants to say that anyone who leaves Christianity was never really a Christian then I would like to posit that there ARE no true Christians...because how the hell do you know you are "truly saved" if many who truly believed and felt they were saved left the faith, proving they never WERE saved.

 

The simple plan of salvation seems to get more and more complex the more brain cells you use to evaluate it.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree...freewill is inconsistently applied, and I also agree that, in relation to God, people have a limited will. No one is ever truly fully free in most aspects of reality. But I think that the reason 'freewill' gets used inconsitently by Christians is that the bible does not present a comprehensive exegesis of what our will's role is in relation to God. The bible's writers simply give indicators of certain aspects, although it does seem that God has the formative position in the matter of salvation. (i.e. Jesus said that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him [or her.])

 

Actually, there are philosophers who would argue that allowing someone to harm themselves is a matter of ethically observing and respecting someone's autonomy. This might come up in the matter of allowing someone to commit suicide, perhaps someone with a terminal illness.

 

In the case of God, I think that the will he instills in each of us is given only the level of freedom He deems appropriate for His purposes involving that person. Additionally, the Bible seems to indicate that God does not look down from heaven upon us all and see us all as 'dearly beloved children'. Rather, we have to be 'adopted' into that particular relationship, and it does happen by any of us simply willing it to take place. God has to initiate.

 

From what I can tell, we will still have motility to our wills in heaven, the difference is that all moral flaws will be removed from us in the 'transformation'. There won't really be any outside influence that will detract from our comfort and cognitive composure. Thus, no apostasy...then. Only apostasy....now.

 

Anyway, I think you're on the right track generally in that you recognize that Calvinist's seem to have a succinct orientation to how it could be. But, I don't subscribe to a strict Calvinist evaluation of the Scriptures.

 

It's good that you are applying critical thought to the matter of Christian claims, since there are so many. However, it is too bad that you despise the possibility that human misconceptions within Christian circles may not by necessity indicate that the bible is false in total.

[Philosopher Dave]

I was on the Christian section of a forum once. I was actually having a rather intelligent discussion with the people there, because they agreed not to bring "free will" into the debate. I told them ahead of time that the free-will thing is a bullshit copout and I was leaving if someone started pushing it.

 

Well, they were cool about it and pretty much left it out, though we talked about it a little, in terms of defining it. They all agreed that "free will" was defined as having the ability to choose good OR evil, as you wish.

 

So I asked them if, being no evil in Heaven, we would be stripped of free will in Heaven.

 

Just about that time(and we'd been having a nice discussion for a couple weeks) this obnoxious Christian jumped in and started pushing free will, it's all our fault, blah blah blah. Basically all the bullshit arguments we hear every five minutes... and nobody on the forum had started spouting them the whole time I was there! It was amazing! It's sad that I get one decent conversation going with them and then one of them has to be an idiot.

 

So anyway, I basically told her to fuck off, and as I saw a fight beginning I ducked out.

 

About that time, someone took it upon themselves to explain about Heaven: see, Heaven would be free will, but WITHOUT EVIL! Wow! We'll have the free will to choose what we want to do, but nothing evil. So I guess we can choose whether we want the pizza or the hamburgers for lunch, or whether we sing or play the harp. I guess. I don't know, they didn't explain.

 

But the part that pissed me off was that they earlier defined free will as the ability to choose evil, THEN said Heaven was free will WITHOUT EVIL. You can't HAVE free will without evil according to their own definition!

 

I lurked a while to see the conversation. Without me there to ask questions and make them think, a whole week went by like this:

ChristLuvr777

Time: 5/7/2001, 05:26 PM

Yes, we will have free will in Heaven but there will be no evil. It will be great.

 

NoBraincells24

Time: 5/7/2001, 09:52 PM

Yes, I also agree that heaven will be great.

 

kissingass4christ

Time: 5/8/2001, 01:14 PM

Yes, it will won't it? I'll see you there

 

dickhead4jesus

Time: 5/8/2001, 07:43 PM

I can't wait 2 get 2 heaven. it will b awesome. i will love it and I will see all of u there 2

 

ChristLuvr777

Time: 5/10/2001, 02:21 AM

Yes it will be so great to see all of you in Heaven. With our free will with no evil. I love all of you my brothers and sisters in Christ : ) x <3 <3 <3

 

NoBraincells24

Time: 5/10/2001, 011:37 PM

Jesus is Lord. Heaven will be great!

I swear to fuck the entire week went by like that. It made me laugh, although I felt guilty about laughing. It's like laughing at someone with downs syndrome.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Son of Belial, I think your right to be hacked a bit by their response. I think it would be more accurate to say, perhaps in line with some things that St. Paul said about 'the flesh not inherting the eternal state, but that we'll be transformed', that we won't sin because we will be transformed into sinless beings. It isn't a matter of free will as much as a change of state in our very beings.

[nightflight]

Yes, I get really pissed at these arguments. Next time a christian brings up the "lifeguard/drowning man" analogy I will ask him what if the drowning person is unconscious, face down in the water. Where is his "free-will" then?

 

We don't allow suicidal people to kill themselves...we don't give them that free will, we help them...we try to stop them. Biblegod shouldn't have to TRY if he's god. It's not that hard.

 

I made a thread on a christian forum on time proving that the xtian god's love is inferior to a human parent's love. If a parent gets a call from one of their children, even their adult children, and the child is calling to tell mom or dad that they have had enough of life and want to check out............what do you think a normal human parent is going to do? They are going to do whatever is in their power to stop their child from making this ultimately harmful, irrevocable "choice". But the xtian god, oh the xtian god is far from having such parental affections. No, he (at least according to convention xtian wisdom) will respect a person's "choice". He will allow the person to make a choice that will bring them to ultimate harm. So much for the idea that god is love.

[qadeshet]

There is no free will at the point of a gun. A robber points a gun at you and tells you to choose: your money or you life; you have a choice, but it's hardly free. Christianity has been using a gun called Hell for 2000 years. The Church should be in jail for armed robbery.

[Guest Onlyonepath]

God has given us free will because it's the highest order of justice. He could have just killed us after eating that apple but he choose to give us responsibility, even though that means the majority will throw themselves in Hell.

[Mythra]

God has given us free will because it's the highest order of justice.  He could have just killed us after eating that apple but he choose to give us responsibility, even though that means the majority will throw themselves in Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

PEARLS!

[Guest Son of Belial]

God has given us free will because it's the highest order of justice.  He could have just killed us after eating that apple but he choose to give us responsibility, even though that means the majority will throw themselves in Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I agree with you. That's why when I see my kids about to hurt themselves near the oven or stovetop, I just let them. They have freewill, so if they get burned, it's just my lovingkindness. Plus if they don't do everything I say by age 18 I'l putting them IN the oven. They CHOSE to go there after all. I'm just that loving.

[Mythra]

Yeah. I'm the same way with my dogs. I don't bother fencing em in or tying them up or anything. If they want to go play in traffic, fuck em..

They chose it.

 

p.s. This isn't true. I would never let my dogs get hurt. I do everything I can to keep em safe. Guess that makes me more moral than biblegod.

[Guest Son of Belial]

Yeah.  I'm the same way with my dogs.  I don't bother fencing em in or tying them up or anything.  If they want to go play in traffic, fuck em..

They chose it. 

 

p.s.  This isn't true.  I would never let my dogs get hurt.  I do everything I can to keep em safe.  Guess that makes me more moral than biblegod.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Same way with mine. I carefully explained to my dogs that if they eat chicken bones, they could choke or it might get caught in their intestines, hurting or even killing them. But they have free will, so I make sure that when I eat chicken I leave the bones out so they can make their own decisions.

 

Usually my dogs die pretty quick, but that's their fault for not accepting my love. I warn then, but they don't listen. The way is narrow, you know.

 

p.s. Also not true. I love animals. Like you said, I seem to love them more than Yahweh does. He likes them when they're burnt offerings, with their blood poured on the altar and smeared on his follows in JUST THE RIGHT way.

[crazy-tiger]

God has given us free will because it's the highest order of justice.  He could have just killed us after eating that apple but he choose to give us responsibility, even though that means the majority will throw themselves in Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

God knows all... which includes what will happen in the future. If it doesn't include things in the future, then God doesn't know all.

 

THAT can only be true if the future is set... which means that free will doesn't exist.

 

 

 

So, either God knows all and free will doesn't exist, OR, free will exists and God doesn't know all.

 

You're a liar or God's a liar... which is it?

[Guest Son of Belial]

My mom tries to get around the God knowing all thing by saying that God CAN look into the future, but usually chooses not to...

 

Okay... sure...

[Bongo]

God has given us free will because it's the highest order of justice.  He could have just killed us after eating that apple but he choose to give us responsibility, even though that means the majority will throw themselves in Hell.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Hahaha <wipes tears from eyes> what a pile-o-poop that is.

 

I'm sure it's a great satifaction for the millions upon millions in hell right now, and those of us following, that we've all been given this great gift of life, er hell, rather than Bile-god merely killing Adam and Eve right away. Besides, didnt he say something like this: "for if ye eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge, on that day ye will surely die" (Amen, praise GAWD-Dah!, hallelujah, & burn baby burn.)

 

 

God Lied--Billions Died!

[Guest Son of Belial]

[Guest Son of Belial]

[Brother Jeff]

The Bible is like a lion; it does not need to be defended; just let it loose and it will defend itself. - Martin Luther

 

The Bible is actually like a comedian. Just let it loose, and it will entertain you for hours! Glory!

[Brother Jeff]

He could have just killed us

 

Well, that certainly wouldn't have been out of character for him. He does seem to enjoy killing, whether he's slaughtering folks by the thousands or just murdering a couple of folks simply for lying to him (Acts 5).

[Brother Jeff]

More quotes from Brother Martin Luther, the Deranged Theologian, from http://www.2think.org/hii/mlquotes.shtml:

 

"God does not work salvation for fictitious sinners. Be a sinner and sin vigorously.... Do not for a moment imagine that this life is the abiding place of justice; sin must be committed."

 

"Sin cannot tear you away from him [Christ], even though you commit adultery a hundred times a day and commit as many murders."

 

"A large number of deaf, crippled and blind people are afflicted solely through the malice of the demon. And one must in no wise doubt that plagues, fevers and every sort of evil come from him."

 

"An earthly kingdom cannot exist without inequality of persons. Some must be free, some serfs, some rulers, some subjects."

 

"As for the demented, I hold it certain that all beings deprived of reason are thus afflicted only by the Devil."

 

"As to the common people, ... one has to be hard with them and see that they do their work and that under the threat of the sword and the law they comply with the observance of piety, just as you chain up wild beasts."

 

"At Poltersberg, there is a lake similarly cursed. If you throw a stone into it, a dreadful storm immediately arises, and the whole neighboring district quakes to its centre. 'Tis the devils kept prisoner there."

 

"At Sussen, the Devil carried off, last Good Friday, three grooms who had devoted themselves to him."

 

"Demons live in many lands, but particularly in Prussia."

 

"How often have not the demons called 'Nix,' drawn women and girls into the water, and there had commerce with them, with fearful consequences."

 

"I almost feel like throwing Jimmy into the stove, as the priest in Kulenberg did."

 

"I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist."

 

"I maintain that some Jew wrote it [the Book of James] who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any."

 

"I myself saw and touched at Dessay, a child of this sort, which had no human parents, but had proceeded from the Devil. He was twelve years old, and, in outward form, exactly resembled ordinary children."

 

"I should have no compassion on these witches; I should burn them all."

 

"Idiots, the lame, the blind, the dumb, are men in whom the devils have established themselves: and all the physicians who heal these infirmities, as though they proceeded from natural causes, are ignorant blockheads...."

 

"In many countries there are particular places to which devils more especially resort. In Prussia there is an infinite number of evil spirits."

 

"In Switzerland, on a high mountain, not far from Lucerne, there is a lake they call Pilate's Pond, which the Devil has fixed upon as one of the chief residences of his evil spirits...."

 

"Many demons are in woods, in waters, in wildernesses, and in dark poolly places ready to hurt...people."

 

"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James, but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool."

 

"No gown worse becomes a than the desire to be wise."

 

"Our bodies are always exposed to Satan. The maladies I suffer are not natural, but Devil's spells."

 

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has: it never comes to the aid of spritual things, but--more frequently than not --struggles against the Divine Word...."

 

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."

 

"Snakes and monkeys are subjected to the demon more than other animals. Satan lives in them and possesses them. He uses them to deceive men and to injure them."

 

"Some [demons] are also in the thick black clouds, which cause hail, lightning and thunder, and poison the air, the pastures and grounds."

 

"The best way to get rid of the Devil, if you cannot kill it with the words of Holy Scripture, is to rail at and mock him. Music, too, is very good; music is hateful to him, and drives him far away. "

 

"The damned whore Reason...."

 

"The Devil can so completely assume the human form, when he wants to deceive us, that we may well lie with what seems to be a woman, of real flesh and blood, and yet all the while 'tis only the Devil in the shape of a woman. 'Tis the same with women, who may think that a man is in bed with them, yet 'tis only the Devil; and...the result of this connection is oftentimes an imp of darkness, half mortal, half devil...."

 

"The Devil...clutched hold of the miserable young man...and flew off with him through the ceiling, since which time nothing has been heard of [him]."

 

"The Devil fears the word of God, He can't bite it; it breaks his teeth."

 

"The Devil, it is true, is not exactly a doctor who has taken degrees, but he is very learned, very expert for all that. He has not been carrying on his business during thousands of years for nothing...."

 

"The Devil, too, sometimes steals human children; it is not infrequent for him to carry away infants within the first six weeks after birth, and to substitute in their place imps...."

 

"The fact that [the biblical book] Hebrews is not an epistle of St. Paul, or of any other apostle, is proved by what it says in chapter two...."

 

"The winds are nothing else but good or bad spirits. Hark! how the Devil is puffing and blowing...."

 

"There is no rustic so rude but that, if he dreams or fancies anything, it must be the whisper of the Holy Ghost, and he himself a prophet."

 

"This fool [Copernicus] wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth."

 

"To be a Christian, you must pluck out the eye of reason."

 

"...two devils rose from the water, and flew off through the air, crying, 'Oh, oh, oh!' and turning one over another, in sportive mockery...."

 

"We are at fault for not slaying them [the Jews]."

 

"We know, on the authority of Moses, that longer than six thousand years the world did not exist."

 

"We may well lie with what seems to be a woman of flesh and blood, and yet all the time it is only a devil in the shape of a woman."

 

"We need not invite the Devil to our table; he is too ready to come without being asked. The air all about us is filled with demons...."

 

"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school [the University of Wittenberg]....

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings...are to be taken from them."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...I advise that safe-conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews? I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach on pain of loss of life and limb."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...set fire to their synagogues or schools and bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

 

"What shall we do with...the Jews?...their homes also should be razed and destroyed."

 

"When I was a child there were many witches, and they bewitched both cattle and men, especially children."

 

"Whoever wants to be a Christian should tear the eyes out of his reason."

 

"Women...have but small and narrow chests, and broad hips, to the end that they should remain at home, sit still, keep house, and bear and bring up children."

 

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

[Guest Son of Belial]

"So tenaciously should we cling to the world revealed by the Gospel, that were I to see all the Angels of Heaven coming down to me to tell me something different, not only would I not be tempted to doubt a single syllable, but I would shut my eyes and stop my ears, for they would not deserve to be either seen or heard."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Now THAT'S a typical response!!!

[Guest Son of Belial]

I know that.  In reality "Lucifer" isn't the real name of satan, it's the name of a star or something.  The place in the bible that speaks of it...it's a metaphor but it has to do with one of the kings back then, not a fallen angel.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The Hebrew word was Helel. Lucifer was a poetic concept used to describe the Morning Star. The Dawn was Aurora, and the son of the dawn - the Morning Star - was Helel, or Lucifer. It was also a title taken by a particular king that Yahweh didn't like too much, which is what the verses about Lucifer are about. A quick reading of the verses in question show that Lucifer was clearly a human in that context.

[Guest kychristian]

Wow, it seems that you've heard a lot of people talk that weren't well versed in the scriptures. Yes, God has given us free will. Otherwise, our love for him would be forced and wouldn't be true love at all. God created us in his image for one purpose, to give him praise, to glorify him. If he had created us without free will, it would have been like you or I writing I love you on a piece of paper. That paper on its own has no choice but to say I love you unless we erase it. God didn't want that kind of forced love because it holds no meaning. He is glorified when people chose to believe in his son and live in him. Ultimately, it's our choice. Believe or don't believe. You already know the consequences of not believing.

 

"Since there would be no forgiveness IN heaven...else why can't you just confess when you die to begin with. No, no second chances in heaven. The bible is very clear there will be no sin in heaven, so ONE sin and you go to hell. "

 

That's not the point of saying there is no sin. Christians are forgiven their sin when they accept Jesus. Figuratively, we are washed clean. The price has already been paid for our sins. When we enter Heaven, we will be pure, blameless. Also, we wont sin once we are in Heaven. Sin is a result of temptations placed before us by the Devil. The Devil wont be in Heaven so there will be nothing to make us sin.

 

I'll do my best to answer any more questions you throw my way. You might email them to me so I'll be sure to see them.

[John]

Sin is a result of temptations placed before us by the Devil.

 

What?! How does the Devil tempt you? Why would He create the Devil or why won’t He get rid of Him? Why didn’t He create us perfect in Heaven in the first place.