Prayer in Public Schools: Why Is It Wrong?

[vargo]

Prayer in Public Schools

 

You've probably guessed, by now, that I'm wholeheartedly against this practice. Prayer, of any kind, has no place in America's public schools. The First Amendment's freedom of religion clause should be enough to explain why this is so, but, for many, it is not.

 

Politicians advocating this practice have often been quoted that "freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion." This is one of the most bigoted statements that a religious person can make. It basically says that everyone must believe in a God of some sort. This is a blatant slap in the face to those of us in the 10% of the nation that aren't religious.

 

Some advocates of the idea of prayer in public schools also say that it won't necessarily be Christian prayer, but any prayer, Moslem, Hindu or whatever else the student chooses to pray, but what about that student who doesn't believe in God? What should he or she do during this time of prayer? I'd suggest standing up during the prayer time and reciting the First Amendment, every day, every prayer session, until the intolerant practice is put to an end.

 

Christians who advocate this practice in public schools like to use the "any kind of prayer" argument to make it look like they're being inclusive to all others and their beliefs. However, they are only showing their willingness to use other religions for their own ends. "Look, we're letting a Buddhist meditate, we're tolerant!" This is simply going from "Christianity versus Everyone Else," to "All the World's Religions versus the Atheists and the Skeptics."

 

The point is that, no matter how many religions you include in your prayer sessions in a public school, you're always ostracizing someone. Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled. If the state engages in wholesale support of religious belief, even if it is every kind of belief from Christian to Wicca, the state is encouraging religion over non-religion. This is a violation of the separation of church and state. The whole point of that doctrine is to make sure that no law is ever made whose purpose is to elevate the status of one religion, any religion, and all religions in the eyes of the state.

[Vixentrox]

Kids are free to pray any time they have a free moment. They don't need some special time set aside for it. I'm sure just before the big test a lot are praying quietly already.

[Pariah]

What I find funny is that the same kind of people who are saying "freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion." are also the ones who insist that secular ideas (humanism, evolution, atheism, etc.) are religions and that the "secularist religion" is taking over America. If religion and politics are not supposed to be seperate than what's the issue with secular politics (besides "it's not Christian so it's evil)?

[duderonomy]

Great can of worms! Mind if I jump in?

 

"Freedom of doesn't mean freedom from" etc. is a cliche. It means nothing in reality, any more than "A penny saved is a penny earned", or any other such quote. It doesn't and shouldn't carry any weight where constitutional law is concerned.

 

What we have to go by is the Constitution of the United States, which never mentions a separation of church and state.

 

What it does say, is that "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion". In other words, NO state religion (i.e. this is America...no more Church of England). It doesn't say anything about prayer in schools, or prayer on the city bus for that matter.

 

While I agree with Vargo whole-heartedly, I do wish that people on both sides of this issue would argue from the Constitution as it is written. It's a pretty easy read, after all.

 

If it's a law, a rule, a requirement, or whatever the school board may call it, prayer by it's definition is an appeal to a 'higher power'. It's NOT introspection, it's not meditation, it's an appeal. That makes it a religion. And according to the Constitution, Congress cannot do that. And the States can't either.

 

And another thing... our courts on all levels need to stop trying to legislate by their decisions. It's not their job to try to 'make' laws. It's their job to judge right or wrong, yes or no, according to existing law, with the Constitution being the first and foremost law of this country.

 

Oh, and mom was right... I shoulda been a lawyer. I may not have the brains, but I have the passion. And you don't need brains to be a lawyer.

[Samurai Tailor]

On the contrary, prayer has every place in public schools. Just not being led by teachers or administrators.

[duderonomy]

Sammy Tailor,

Sorry, but no.

 

Of course those who wish to pray are free to do so, in school or anywhere.

 

But if the school sets aside time during a school day for prayer?

 

I think that that is the main issue.

[dogmatically_challenged]

[Guest Son of Belial]

Yep, just like my aunt saying that if someone doesn't want to hear the word God in school "they can close their ears," but I bet you any amount of money that if her grandkids came home talking about evolution she'd be up in arms. She wouldn't be saying they could just close their ears.

 

I remember when these Christians tried to ban Earth Day because it was "earth worship," and tried to ban a class making images out of clay as "idolatry." Where was the "they can close their ears" and "freedom of religion, not freedom from religion" then?

 

The fuckers even had school counsilors removed from schools because they said that it was an infringement of privacy. So if your kid is suicidal and you're such a narrow-minded, judgemental Christian that they're scared to talk to you, congrats on driving your kid to suicide by taking away the one person they might have felt comfortable talking to. Cos God isn't answering their questions, obviously, and a counsilor might.

[Samurai Tailor]

Sammy Tailor,

Sorry, but no.

 

Of course those who wish to pray are free to do so, in school or anywhere.

 

But if the school sets aside time during a school day for prayer?

 

I think that that is the main issue.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

We have the "moment of silence" in my district. While it is inwardly irritating knowing that the MoS is little more than a front for evangelicals to imply, "Hey, look at us; we're praying!", I doubt there is much ground for a serious challenge.

[dogmatically_challenged]

duderonomy

If it's a law, a rule, a requirement, or whatever the school board may call it, prayer by it's definition is an appeal to a 'higher power'. It's NOT introspection, it's not meditation, it's an appeal. That makes it a religion. And according to the Constitution, Congress cannot do that. And the States can't either.

The thing that makes this issue confusing to many folks is that from the very start we have examples our American predecessors ignoring the constitution by violating or not stopping people who broke the law, ( Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion). Some of our founding fathers allowed people at times even in Washington D.C. to ignor the Constitution.

 

Back then I could see how hard it might be to enforce such a law from time to time. But because of the precedences of our predecessors ignoring the Constitution it is even harder for us today.

 

Also the States had more power to do what ever the hell they wanted to in the beggining. Look at the State Constitions. Some had no respect for the ideals of the Founding Fathers who put together the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

Another thing also, before public schools who taught children? The clergy.

[duderonomy]

DC,

 

Sorry, but NO!

 

We have a Constitution, and it must be followed (sorry if I sound like a Fundie about this). Otherwise, and despite the mistakes of those who(m) have come before... we either have a Bill of Rights or we don't. I guess one would need to make the same decision regarding the Constitution as one would make regarding the Bible.

 

You believe in it and adhere to it, or you don't.

 

There's a lady reporter in jail tonight and she's there because she wouldn't reveal her sources on a particular story. So then, it's a battle between 'Freedom of the Press' and the courts.

 

I still say, the Constitution wins. The court can throw her in the slammer -by force-for exercising her freedom, and then I might be next... for praying in school, or for not praying. That doesn't make the courts right. They aren't interpreting the law, they are trying to write the law...not their job.

 

I stand by my first post on this thread, period.

[dogmatically_challenged]

DC,

 

Sorry, but NO!

 

We have a Constitution, and it must be followed (sorry if I sound like a Fundie about this). Otherwise, and despite the mistakes of those who(m) have come before... we either have a Bill of Rights or we don't. I guess one would need to make the same decision regarding the Constitution as one would make regarding the Bible.

 

You believe in it and adhere to it, or you don't.

 

There's a lady reporter in jail tonight and she's there because she wouldn't reveal her sources on a particular story. So then, it's a battle between 'Freedom of the Press' and the courts.

 

I still say, the Constitution wins. The court can throw her in the slammer -by force-for exercising her freedom, and then I might be next... for praying in school, or for not praying. That doesn't make the courts right. They aren't interpreting the law, they are trying to write the law...not their job.

 

I stand by my first post on this thread, period.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Me too. But certain Xers brought up the fact that our predecessors ignored the law many times. The Constitution says what it says and I just tell the Xers that we have a long history of ignoring the Constitution.

[duderonomy]

Sammy Tailor...

 

There might be a challenge. Our children are there to learn. That's why we pay the big bucks for local schools.

 

What are these kids going to learn from a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Aren't they there to learn readin' writin', and 'rythmitic'?

 

Are they going to learn that in a classroom of silence?

 

2+2= 'Shsshhh!'

 

So what is the school's answer to why are the kids forced into a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Silence to whom? To what??

 

Is that silence more important than a teacher making noise by teaching?

 

C'mon!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Sammy Tailor...

 

There might be a challenge. Our children are there to learn. That's why we pay the big bucks for local schools.

 

What are these kids going to learn from a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Aren't they there to learn readin' writin', and 'rythmitic'?

 

Are they going to learn that in a classroom of silence?

 

2+2= 'Shsshhh!'

 

So what is the school's answer to why are the kids forced into a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Silence to whom? To what??

 

Is that silence more important than a teacher making noise by teaching?

 

C'mon!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They can't let go of tradition. Neither can they justify tradition other than "Its a part of American tradition that the childens pray to start the school day."

 

A tradition that some parts of the country have held for a long time.

 

As far as I'm concerned America is a melting pot or its not and if so boundries must be set more than ever as new peoples come to our shores to live.

[duderonomy]

DC,

I couldn't give a sh*t about what Xer's think. When the Constitution goes out the window, for whatever reason, then we're all doomed.

 

And if some big shots in the past ignored it, then I guess we're just 'lucky' to have gotten this far.

 

The same goes for 'Tradition'.

[dogmatically_challenged]

As far as I'm concerned America is a melting pot or its not and if so boundries must be set more than ever as new peoples come to our shores to live.

 

Folks need to let go of tradition a little more and make room for new ideas and real freedom.

 

I agree with you 100% duder.

 

I am just applying a little empathy for the xers in order to point out how hard things will be to follow the Constitution for a change. People will fight to keep traditions. Many Americans are primitive and are handicapped in thier concept of true freedom. They have no empathy for others. How do we sell folks on what is right and practical when they are all jesus addicts? I dunno.

 

When I get out of school I think I'll bail and move to a country were there is a greater number of unreligious people. I have no faith in the American people because most are religionists.

 

I wish all heathens would take thier money and skills and move to one part of the U.S.A so that we can have our own State(s) that follows the Constitution of The United States of America. A secular belt. hehe. The West coast is perfect for that. We could be a shining beacon of true freedom that would be truly grounded in the Constitution and Bill of rights as given us by our Founding Fathers. I bet folks from over seas who imigrate to our state would love us if they ever got a taste of the bible belts brand of amerikkka.

[MrSpooky]

People are free to pray however and whenever they want.

 

What is at issue is whether government institutions can impose religion on kids. THAT is what the separation of church and state is all about.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

People are free to pray however and whenever they want.

 

What is at issue is whether government institutions can impose religion on kids.  THAT is what the separation of church and state is all about.

 

 

And which is the reason I don't necessarily support a ban on school prayer. If kids want to pray on their own, maybe after school or during some kind of group meeting, just like an art club or wrestling club, why not? If it isn't imposed on me, if the school doesn't force everyone to pray -- as they don't force everyone to join the aforementioned art or wrestling clubs -- then let them have their imaginary friends. Schools will support DARE or the Cub Scouts for gods' sakes. Letting some kids, on their own, pray together some place it doesn't bother the rest of us is hardly going to kill you. Shit, even if my school would have allowed it, I may have rolled my eyes, but I wouldn't stop them.

[dogmatically_challenged]

People are free to pray however and whenever they want.

 

What is at issue is whether government institutions can impose religion on kids.  THAT is what the separation of church and state is all about.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea. Some folks want jesus back in school. They want prayor that ends in "In jesus name amen." in schools again.

 

A monent of silence seems fair to me though.

[dogmatically_challenged]

And which is the reason I don't necessarily support a ban on school prayer.  If kids want to pray on their own, maybe after school or during some kind of group meeting, just like an art club or wrestling club, why not?    If it isn't imposed on me, if the school doesn't force everyone to pray -- as they don't force everyone to join the aforementioned art or wrestling clubs -- then let them have their imaginary friends.    Schools will support DARE or the Cub Scouts for gods' sakes.    Letting some kids, on their own, pray together some place it doesn't bother the rest of us is hardly going to kill you.  Shit, even if my school would have allowed it, I may have rolled my eyes, but I wouldn't stop them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Yea. As long as they don't make a time in class where everyone is saying a xian prayor out loud in class.

[Sokudo Ningyou]

Yea. As long as they don't make a time in class where everyone is saying a xian prayor out loud in class.

 

 

Exactly. Let them have an extracurricular club if they want. Hell, the jocks can do it, why not the other brainless students?

[Christopher Carrion]

Forcing children to partake in Christian prayers, hymns or sermons is ultimately barbaric, and evidence of the fundamental insecurity that permeates the faith. Surely, were it so self-evidently the ultimate "truth" that its adherents promote it as, then it would not be required to condition children at such an early stage of personal and psychological development into regarding it as such? "Truth" is self-evident, therefore the belief-system would have much more legitimacy in my eyes were its adherents (and promoters) willing to allow children (and everyone else) to gravitate to it of their own admission, which they would surely do regardless of what other perspectives, ideologies and belief-systems they become exposed to were it as fundamentally correct as they proclaim.

 

Neurotic doesn't quite cover it.

[Purple Rhino]

IMO

 

It's all or nothing. Either every religious non/belief is encouraged and recognized for 'prayer in school' or None.

 

I also agree that seperation of church and state is not in the constitution of the US but if you listen to what the Christians are saying with a fundy administration in place ... IS for a national religion recognized and sanctioned by congress.

 

They would like nothing more than replacing the statue of liberty with a huge cross and have all beliefs that did not fit exactly into their thinking outlawed.

 

What's the difference between Communism demanding there is no god and Bush demanding there IS a god, and said god is his defence advisor.

 

PR

[Samurai Tailor]

Sammy Tailor...

 

There might be a challenge. Our children are there to learn. That's why we pay the big bucks for local schools.

 

What are these kids going to learn from a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Aren't they there to learn readin' writin', and 'rythmitic'?

 

Are they going to learn that in a classroom of silence?

 

2+2= 'Shsshhh!'

 

So what is the school's answer to why are the kids forced into a 'Moment of Silence'?

 

Silence to whom? To what??

 

Is that silence more important than a teacher making noise by teaching?

 

C'mon!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I sympathize. Like I said, it irritates me knowing that the MoS was spearheaded by evangelical Christians and cloaked in a superficial sheen of inclusiveness. Unfortunately, I think it is superficial enough (it is only 1 minute long, IIRC) that the school board would dismiss challenges that it significantly disrupts the learning environment with a collective handwave.

[duderonomy]

Well, it seems like we all pretty much agree. Amazing, since we don't have a holy book or a jazillion denominations to teach us!