Prayer in Public Schools: Why Is It Wrong?

[Guest miata]

Prayer in Public Schools

 

You've probably guessed, by now, that I'm wholeheartedly against this practice. Prayer, of any kind, has no place in America's public schools. The First Amendment's freedom of religion clause should be enough to explain why this is so, but, for many, it is not.

 

Politicians advocating this practice have often been quoted that "freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion." This is one of the most bigoted statements that a religious person can make. It basically says that everyone must believe in a God of some sort. This is a blatant slap in the face to those of us in the 10% of the nation that aren't religious.

 

Some advocates of the idea of prayer in public schools also say that it won't necessarily be Christian prayer, but any prayer, Moslem, Hindu or whatever else the student chooses to pray, but what about that student who doesn't believe in God? What should he or she do during this time of prayer? I'd suggest standing up during the prayer time and reciting the First Amendment, every day, every prayer session, until the intolerant practice is put to an end.

 

Christians who advocate this practice in public schools like to use the "any kind of prayer" argument to make it look like they're being inclusive to all others and their beliefs. However, they are only showing their willingness to use other religions for their own ends. "Look, we're letting a Buddhist meditate, we're tolerant!" This is simply going from "Christianity versus Everyone Else," to "All the World's Religions versus the Atheists and the Skeptics."

 

The point is that, no matter how many religions you include in your prayer sessions in a public school, you're always ostracizing someone. Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled. If the state engages in wholesale support of religious belief, even if it is every kind of belief from Christian to Wicca, the state is encouraging religion over non-religion. This is a violation of the separation of church and state. The whole point of that doctrine is to make sure that no law is ever made whose purpose is to elevate the status of one religion, any religion, and all religions in the eyes of the state.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Praying to all the Gods would take years. All gods are created equal in the public schools or should be. Give them al equal time.

[Ro-bear]

The moment of silence is only twenty-five seconds or so at my school. I don't have a class first block, so I don't know how many kids pray or how silent they are. I'm in the office making announcements at that time, and during the pause the office staff carries on business as usual.

 

It is stupid but harmless. No one has to pray.

[Godless Dave]

Kids are free to pray any time they have a free moment.  They don't need some special time set aside for it.  I'm sure just before the big test a lot are praying quietly already.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And the kids who are being raised in a religion already know when and how their parents want them to pray, so why do they need the school telling them to do it? It's pretty clear the people who want mandatory prayer in schools want the schools to make OTHER people's kids pray.

[Godless Dave]

And which is the reason I don't necessarily support a ban on school prayer.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I don't know of anyone advocating such a ban. And it would be unconstitutional, a violation of the free exercise clause. Children have a constitutonal right to pray in school as long as they don't disrupt class.

[Godless Dave]

I also agree that seperation of church and state is not in the constitution of the US PR

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"Separation of church and state" is pretty much a paraphrase of "no ... establishment of religion".

[Guest Joseph]

The First Amendment's freedom of religion clause should be enough to explain why this is so, but, for many, it is not.

 

The first amendment does not cover such things as voluntary time for prayer. To assign such an idea to "freedom of religion" or perhaps "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" would be a very far stretch. It would be the subversion of personal liberty to establish a governmental band upon the freedom to practice a faithful act freely regardless of location. Who do you think you are in trying to take my freedom of speech (inner speech at that) quite frankly? A God?

 

Now, I want to quantify that statement very quickly: I do not think that a teacher or other person should practice prayers to specific deity/ies in a classroom. I would support the middle ground of a "moment of silence." To be used by each member of society based upon their belief structure or world view. In such a manner the Christian can pray to Jesus, the Islamic person can pray to Allah, the Jewish to YHVH, and the agnostic/atheist can complete his homework or think about the constitutional right to free speach which are being protected under such a moment of freedom.

 

Politicians advocating this practice have often been quoted that "freedom of religion doesn't mean freedom from religion." This is one of the most bigoted statements that a religious person can make.

 

I would say that their world view leads them to think that others should have the same peace of existence and what many times we would want to label as ego is merely their desire for others to live in the same type of world they do (ignorance is bliss, HEH).

 

Granted, some are quite egotistical in their desires to back-door theological ideas into our classrooms and I understand why they try to do such things (brainwashing and enculturation being the number 1 way to get a person into a faith branch).

 

But again, there is nothing wrong with allowing a person to practice their world view in their way so long as it does not effect/affect the freedoms of another. And trying to demonstrate that a private inner prayer has an effect/affect upon anyone in the room would be hard to press. And a "moment of silence" can be used for various things (I used my for cram sessions, homework completion, and to look over stuff before class in fact, along with a small/short prayer.) It was only a minute or two long anyways, not enough to really make anyone worry too much about it.

 

You want something to argue about, then argue that a graduation prayer shouldn't end in "In Jesus Name" or some such, or perhaps that the "prayer" should be done in the most non-religious manner possible. But to say that kids have no right to any type of prayer is so absolutist in nature it is almost ringing of a zealotal idea stream, scarey really when you come to understand that your world view is nothing more than a belief that goes without demonstration just like those of another person. Science does not demonstrate the negative that you seem to be trying to demonstrate in your unbelief, science makes no claims about deities by definition of looking only at the material world.

 

It basically says that everyone must believe in a God of some sort.

 

You do. Either you believe in a God or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence. A fanatic by any definition of the word. One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

(snip)

What should he or she do during this time of prayer?

 

Homework? Studying? Any number of a thousand other things that kids need time for early in the morning (when they did it in my school).

 

(snip)

The point is that, no matter how many religions you include in your prayer sessions in a public school, you're always ostracizing someone.

 

How exactly does playing the lame duck help your argument?

And for the f*ck of the matter, how does a moment of silence "ostracize" someone?

I think you are a bit too thin skinned if I can't be quiet around you, personally.

 

Pardon my french by the way.

 

Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled.

 

I haven't really read such a moronic statement in a long time.

THINK about what you just wrote for a second...

Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled????

 

Until we have nanites in our blood or perhaps computer implants, I see absolutely no way for them to control your freedom of thought short of putting you into a state of a coma.

 

Also, just for the fun of it, where in the hell does the Constitution assure you a freedom of thought? And your trying to extrapolate on the word speech?

 

If the state engages in wholesale support of religious belief, even if it is every kind of belief from Christian to Wicca, the state is encouraging religion over non-religion.

 

Again, allowing kids to say a prayer or not is NOT supporting religous over non-religion. It is allowing the kid to do whatever the hell it has been enculturated into it. Nothing more.

 

This is a violation of the separation of church and state.

 

This idea is developed through much later law and is not a Constitutionally granted right, sorry to be the bearer of that bad news.

 

The whole point of that doctrine is to make sure that no law is ever made whose purpose is to elevate the status of one religion, any religion, and all religions in the eyes of the state.

 

To have the right to a moment of silence is a non-issue. Period. You should have attacked graduation prayers that are sectation specific or something in order to have something to complain about.

 

I corrected the hell out of this several times, if anything else is mis-spelled I give up.

[vargo]

The first amendment does not cover such things as voluntary time for prayer.  To assign such an idea to "freedom of religion" or perhaps "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" would be a very far stretch.  It would be the subversion of personal liberty to establish a governmental band upon the freedom to practice a faithful act freely regardless of location.  Who do you think you are in trying to take my freedom of speech (inner speech at that) quite frankly?  A God?

 

Now, I want to quantify that statement very quickly:  I do not think that a teacher or other person should practice prayers to specific deity/ies in a classroom.  I would support the middle ground of a "moment of silence."  To be used by each member of society based upon their belief structure or world view.  In such a manner the Christian can pray to Jesus, the Islamic person can pray to Allah, the Jewish to YHVH, and the agnostic/atheist can complete his homework or think about the constitutional right to free speach which are being protected under such a moment of freedom.

I would say that their world view leads them to think that others should have the same peace of existence and what many times we would want to label as ego is merely their desire for others to live in the same type of world they do (ignorance is bliss, HEH).

 

Granted, some are quite egotistical in their desires to back-door theological ideas into our classrooms and I understand why they try to do such things (brainwashing and enculturation being the number 1 way to get a person into a faith branch).

 

But again, there is nothing wrong with allowing a person to practice their world view in their way so long as it does not effect/affect the freedoms of another.  And trying to demonstrate that a private inner prayer has an effect/affect upon anyone in the room would be hard to press.  And a "moment of silence" can be used for various things (I used my for cram sessions, homework completion, and to look over stuff before class in fact, along with a small/short prayer.)  It was only a minute or two long anyways, not enough to really make anyone worry too much about it.

 

You want something to argue about, then argue that a graduation prayer shouldn't end in "In Jesus Name" or some such, or perhaps that the "prayer" should be done in the most non-religious manner possible.  But to say that kids have no right to any type of prayer is so absolutist in nature it is almost ringing of a zealotal idea stream, scarey really when you come to understand that your world view is nothing more than a belief that goes without demonstration just like those of another person.  Science does not demonstrate the negative that you seem to be trying to demonstrate in your unbelief, science makes no claims about deities by definition of looking only at the material world.

 

It basically says that everyone must believe in a God of some sort.

 

You do.  Either you believe in a God or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence.  A fanatic by any definition of the word.  One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

(snip)

What should he or she do during this time of prayer?

 

Homework? Studying?  Any number of a thousand other things that kids need time for early in the morning (when they did it in my school).

 

(snip)

The point is that, no matter how many religions you include in your prayer sessions in a public school, you're always ostracizing someone.

 

How exactly does playing the lame duck help your argument?

And for the f*ck of the matter, how does a moment of silence "ostracize" someone?

I think you are a bit too thin skinned if I can't be quiet around you, personally.

 

Pardon my french by the way.

 

Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled.

 

I haven't really read such a moronic statement in a long time.

THINK about what you just wrote for a second...

Someone's right to think freely is always going to be trampled????

 

Until we have nanites in our blood or perhaps computer implants, I see absolutely no way for them to control your freedom of thought short of putting you into a state of a coma.

 

Also, just for the fun of it, where in the hell does the Constitution assure you a freedom of thought?  And your trying to extrapolate on the word speech?

 

If the state engages in wholesale support of religious belief, even if it is every kind of belief from Christian to Wicca, the state is encouraging religion over non-religion.

 

Again, allowing kids to say a prayer or not is NOT supporting religous over non-religion.  It is allowing the kid to do whatever the hell it has been enculturated into it.  Nothing more.

 

This is a violation of the separation of church and state.

 

This idea is developed through much later law and is not a Constitutionally granted right, sorry to be the bearer of that bad news.

 

The whole point of that doctrine is to make sure that no law is ever made whose purpose is to elevate the status of one religion, any religion, and all religions in the eyes of the state.

 

To have the right to a moment of silence is a non-issue.  Period.  You should have attacked graduation prayers that are sectation specific or something in order to have something to complain about.

 

I corrected the hell out of this several times, if anything else is mis-spelled I give up.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

You have this illusion that my Post was about me opposing your stupid idea of Moment of silence in class.

What you fail to understand is that my post is about Open prayer in public schools. From what I understand is what our government ( Bush ) and Extreme fundamentalists Christians want in our schools. Forcing there belief into our children.

 

The first amendment does not cover such things as voluntary time for prayer. To assign such an idea to "freedom of religion" or perhaps "Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion" would be a very far stretch. It would be the subversion of personal liberty to establish a governmental band upon the freedom to practice a faithful act freely regardless of location. Who do you think you are in trying to take my freedom of speech (inner speech at that) quite frankly? A God?

 

What part of my post did I say anything about freedom of speech ( inner Speech at that) And no I'm not a god because I don't believe in god. I'm NOT saying your not allowed to practice your religion . Just not in a public school during any particular time where there is about 10% of people who don't believe in God. Public school is not function of the church, its a place of public education. There is a time and a place to have freedom of speech anywhere. But why during a time of education. I would think education is more important then having to wait for some to finish there moment of prayer.

I would support the middle ground of a "moment of silence." To be used by each member of society based upon their belief structure or world view. In such a manner the Christian can pray to Jesus, the Islamic person can pray to Allah, the Jewish to YHVH, and the agnostic/atheist can complete his homework or think about the constitutional right to free speech which are being protected under such a moment of freedom.

 

I would like to believe a "moment of silence" is when we were honoring and remember the dead... IE 9/11, plane crashes, our dead troops over seas." Moment of silence" is a universal way for all religious and non religious people to come together and remember those who have perished. I have never seen or hear anyone out side of a church use a Moment of silence in a public place in reference to having to say a pray in there head.. What your doing is taking the idea of a "Moment of Silence" and making it a religious statement.

I why don't you just call it , a "Moment of Religious Silence". If I was to have a moment of silence I would like to think its about the people who have passway before us and this is the way to remember them by.

 

 

But again, there is nothing wrong with allowing a person to practice their world view in their way so long as it does not effect/affect the freedoms of another. And trying to demonstrate that a private inner prayer has an effect/affect upon anyone in the room would be hard to press. And a "moment of silence" can be used for various things (I used my for cram sessions, homework completion, and to look over stuff before class in fact, along with a small/short prayer.) It was only a minute or two long anyways, not enough to really make anyone worry too much about it.

 

I have nothing wrong with people demonstrating there religion, I just don't like that we have to put aside of few minuets of precious school education for you to have a religious moment. You can have your moment of silence anytime you want, before school after school, hell you can have a moment of silence when your taking a shit. Why do you have to have it during school time. Is to show off your religion to the rest of the class??. SAYING ha ha we won we can have prayer in school now. Its bad enough we have racisms in some public schools. Now where going to have religious battles for those who think our god is better then your god. Believe me it will happen.. Your like a child teasing his sister saying. " I'm not touching you , I'm not touching," all at the same time waving his finger in of her nose.. GET THE POINT??

 

 

 

"

It basically says that everyone must believe in a God of some sort."

 

 

You do. Either you believe in a God or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence. A fanatic by any definition of the word. One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

I don't believe in god nor do I scream at people telling them there is no god. I simple think there is now place for any open pray in a public schools. That is point of my post which you failed to understand

 

 

"The point is that, no matter how many religions you include in your prayer sessions in a public school, you're always ostracizing someone."

 

 

How exactly does playing the lame duck help your argument?

And for the f*ck of the matter, how does a moment of silence "ostracize" someone?

I think you are a bit too thin skinned if I can't be quiet around you, personally.

 

Pardon my french by the way.

 

Did you realize what you did here. You took your "Moment of silence" idea and make believe that my post was all about me telling you not to have a moment of silence in class.. Let me review my post again. UMMMM yep not one single line I wrote mention anything about YOUR FUCKING STUPID moment of silence idea. but since we are talking about moment of silence and ostracizing someone. I would have to say your stupid idea is DEFIANTLY Ostracizing someone. I would like you to tell Mr. Islam and Mr., Jewish and every one else..," I know all of your life you have been praying out loud in your churches and at home and special functions, but here in Public school we need to you say it in your head because we don't want to offend other people who don't believe in your god" If anything I would believe that is more insulting to someone's religion. If you have someone who really believes in there religion, there not going to say there prayer in there head during a moment of silence that would defeat the whole idea of having prayer in school to begin with. PLUS not ever one's pray is just a moment long. You can also tell them that you only have a few min. to say your prayer so make it quick. Because I know that the lords prayer is only about a min long to say anyway, where the Jews and Islamic prayers are like whole passage in there holy books. Like I said before you can have your moment of silence anytime go for it, HELL you can even have it when the teacher is talking, during lunch, taking a shit but why would you want to have a moment during the day that every one has to stop what there doing to see what's going on. IS IT BECAUSE you can now say HA HA HE HE we won we can have prayers in school....

 

Sorry I'm buying the whole Moment of Silence gig pal.

[Cerise]

Hey Joseph, I just have one question buddy...

 

 

Either you believe in a God or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence.  A fanatic by any definition of the word.  One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

 

What kind of a fucking moronic statement is that?

[Ms. K]

We have the "moment of silence" in my district.  While it is inwardly irritating knowing that the MoS is little more than a front for evangelicals to imply, "Hey, look at us; we're praying!", I doubt there is much ground for a serious challenge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

And frankly, that's more irritating an attitude than "freedom OF religion doesn't mean freedom FROM religion."

 

The whole, "Hey, look at us, we're praying!" attitude, that is, not yours, Samurai Tailor, sorry, I should have clarified that earlier.

 

For that, their own holy book says, "And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, fro they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the streetcorners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. But when you pray, go into your room, close the dor and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you." Matthew 6: 5-6, NIV.

 

Well, if they are True Christians, then why do they need a special time set aside to pray? They are to be praying in secret, in their rooms, so their God, who is unseen, will see what is done in secret and reward their prayers.

 

Prayer in school is nobody else's business, IMHO. If a kid is going to take a moment to pray over his or her lunch, good for him or her. I don't care. If a kid is going to take a silent moment to pray before a test, okay, no big deal. But making everyone observe a "moment of silence", or listen to someone pray? Nope, that goes against the First Amendment protections of freedom of religion (i.e. it's still pushing a religion on someone else's kid), and freedom of speech (you can bet that school administrations wouldn't go for any kind of Wiccan/pagan/Satanic prayer).

 

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it.

[Guest Joseph]

You have this illusion that my Post was about me opposing your stupid idea of Moment of silence in class.

 

And I quote:

Prayer, of any kind, has no place in America's public schools.

{Emphasis added.}

 

If you only meant spoken prayer, teacher led prayer, and or another type of prayer, then you should not have made the absolutist statement you did. That is what set me off in the first place, your totalistic take on the subject.

 

What you fail to understand is that my post is about Open prayer in public schools.

 

No, you may have meant it to be about that but you wrote "Prayer, of any kind." Sorry to make you read your own post.

 

From what I understand is what our government ( Bush ) and Extreme fundamentalists Christians want in our schools. Forcing there belief into our children.

 

There are various groups of various religions that would love to see their particular sectation's prayer type to return to a led-by-teacher type of thing.

 

That doesn't mean they have a chance in hell of this happening however.

 

Again, I attacked you totalistic / absolutist ideas you gave in your post. If that is not what you meant then you should have not typed it that way.

 

What part of my post did I say anything about freedom of speech ( inner Speech at that)

 

That would be the part that says, "Prayer, of any kind..."

 

(snip)

Just not in a public school during any particular time where there is about 10% of people who don't believe in God.

 

Stats really do not hold to real life very clearly. You would be hard pressed to find any given classroom in America to represent the beliefs of the general population. This to the side I once again want to say that your viewpoint upset me due to your statement of any kind of prayer. I still say that such a ban is impractical and really does impose upon personal liberty.

 

Public school is not function of the church, its a place of public education. There is a time and a place to have freedom of speech anywhere. But why during a time of education. I would think education is more important then having to wait for some to finish there moment of prayer.

 

Education is more important than a personal liberty?

 

I'll quote Ben Franklin:

"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."

 

Many times it is the cry of a specific socially agreed upon good that allows persons to remove personal liberties. A kid saying an inner prayer in the classroom should be a non-issue. Heck, for that matter, a kid saying a relatively short open prayer in a classroom should be allowed up to a point otherwise our system is removing from us individual liberties.

 

I would like to believe a "moment of silence" is when we were honoring and remember the dead... IE 9/11, plane crashes, our dead troops over seas." Moment of silence" is a universal way for all religious and non religious people to come together and remember those who have perished.

 

A perfect idea in fact.

The atheist can reflect upon the great sacrifices given up through time in order to have personal liberties while allowing others to participate in their belief systems privately. Wonderful idea.

 

(snip)

I have nothing wrong with people demonstrating there religion, I just don't like that we have to put aside of few minuets of precious school education for you to have a religious moment.

 

Most are done in the morning when students are coming in, getting settled, and last but a minute max. Those trying to make an issue of it really do not understand the concept. It is a universal need to give a kid a few seconds to get things done and/or pray. In all honesty the majority do not use it for prayer but that is for another topic entirely. Ever tried to get something done in a minute? Goes by real fast.

 

You can have your moment of silence anytime you want, before school after school, hell you can have a moment of silence when your taking a shit. Why do you have to have it during school time. Is to show off your religion to the rest of the class?

 

First, an inner prayer during a moment of silence is not "showing off [my] religion to the rest of the class." I'm agnostic for the most part anyways and have little to demonstrate outright. I'm also not in any class, heh. To demonstrate a religion would require much more than a moment of sleepy quiet time anyways.

 

Second, the reason for this to be in a classroom is to appease the various groups that desire it which are in fact a majority in this country which is a democracy. Morality is relative and if this is enough to appease those that would take back the classroom to a specific deity then let them have it as it is a non-obtrusive policy that is universally a relative good in application (benefits everyone hurts no one). Again I am referring to the moment of silence not teacher-led-prayer.

 

(snip)

Now where going to have religious battles for those who think our god is better then your god.

 

Would not discussions about differing viewpoints and exposure to different cultures not help to teach others not to look down on belief systems not their own? Would this not breed tolerance instead of back-wood ignorant racist ideologies so common in the south?

 

Believe me it will happen.. Your like a child teasing his sister saying. " I'm not touching you , I'm not touching," all at the same time waving his finger in of her nose.. GET THE POINT??

 

Not really. If a kid wants to say a prayer there should be little a teacher can do to stop it by default. Unlike various policies which exist today I am not a proponent of removing personal freedoms when a kid enters a classroom.

 

(snip)

I simple think there is [no] place for any open pray[er] in a public schools. That is point of my post which you failed to understand

 

So you were not speaking out against all prayer, just specific type. Then we perhaps almost entirely agree then. I will then ignore the statement "Prayer, of any kind" and put into it "open prayer in public schools."

 

Did you realize what you did here. You took your "Moment of silence" idea and make believe that my post was all about me telling you not to have a moment of silence in class..

 

Don't try to throw out a red herring defense Mr.

I will immediately call you on the carpet about the quote I have harped on repeatedly during this post...which I had to edit to get at what you really meant it would seem.

 

(snip)

Let me review my post again. UMMMM yep not one single line I wrote mention anything about YOUR FUCKING STUPID moment of silence idea.

 

HHMMM, amazing that you would reflect upon your post and miss the very statement that set me off into my response, isn't it? As we have already agreed to ignore your mis-statement and to edit it toward what you really meant, I will not harp on this anymore.

 

{Edited for focus, point, and well, length}

I would have to say your stupid idea is DEFIANTLY Ostracizing someone. If anything I would believe that is more insulting to someone's religion. If you have someone who really believes in there religion, there not going to say there prayer in there head during a moment of silence that would defeat the whole idea of having prayer in school to begin with.

 

First, the reason to have "prayer" (moment of silence) in school is for the kid to decide, period. So the kid can do whatever the hell the kid wants during that ime. To assume that those who put such things into practice get to dictate what is done during that time is, quite frankly, silly. Therefore to say that it defeats the whole idea of having prayer in school" is really to not look at the context of the idea at all. And again, I would want to know who we are ostracizing as you claim because the atheist can reflect on whatever s/he wants, the xian to their god, the muslim to their god, and so on and so forth. I see no "ostracizing" what-so-ever.

 

PLUS not [everyone's] pray[er] is just a moment long. You can also tell them that you only have a few min. to say your prayer so make it quick. Because I know that the lords prayer is only about a min long to say anyway, where the Jews and Islamic prayers are like whole passage in there holy books.

 

This isn't for scripted prayers (long) as those are allowed under entirely other laws (the child that must turn to a city and have a prayer at lunchtime has a right to it if they so choose, in a designated area). This is another topic entirely. This is about a moment of silent personal prayer (or whatever the kid decides) that someone can do or not and it is normally around a minute, normally in the morning during "homeroom" or such things. The policy changes from place to place.

 

Like I said before you can have your moment of silence anytime go for it, HELL you can even have it when the teacher is talking, during lunch, taking a shit but why would you want to have a moment during the day that every one has to stop what there doing to see what's going on. IS IT BECAUSE you can now say HA HA HE HE we won we can have prayers in school....

 

Sorry I'm buying the whole Moment of Silence gig pal.

 

If you are "buying" then I would suppose you are voting for it, but I think you meant "you are not buying it" and that it is an attempt to get "prayer back in schools." Granted I agree that it is such an attempt but again I see little reason to argue against it if the current policies are kept, inthat the teacher does not lead it, it is up the kid to participate or do something else, and the moment is kept short (around a minute). Because we live in the world we do there are certain things that must be allowed which in a perfect society we would not allow, but to impose upon personal liberty just because a kid is trying to learn doesn't seem right to me. If your first post was meant to have had "absolutely" nothing to do with a moment of silence then of course it wasn't to you from the get go.

[Guest Joseph]

Hey Joseph, I just have one question buddy..

 

What kind of a fucking moronic statement is that? 

 

Here is what he was talking about...

 

QUOTE(Joseph @ Aug 15 2005, 10:34 PM)

Either you believe in a God

 

A person either accepts that a deity exists....

 

or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence.

 

Or that same person believes themselves a type of god inthat they (he/she) has a right to enforce their world view upon the planet as a whole based upon no evidence in either direction. Lack of evidence is an argument from ignorance.

 

A fanatic by any definition of the word.  One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

A person who is a fanatic about a given subject is one who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

Hope that helps. It was about how the poster was trying to enforce his unbelief in a deity upon society as a whole instead of looking for a middle ground. No better than the right winger who demands that the graduation prayer end in "In Jesus Name." They are both in the same illogical boat or, to phase it differently "think they have a right to enforce [their] world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence."

[Ro-bear]

  Either you believe in a God or you are god from your viewpoint that you have a right to enforce your world view upon the planet as a whole based upon non-evidence.  A fanatic by any definition of the word.  One who holds extreme views or advocates extreme measures.

 

Egad! What utter nonsense! Surely you don't mean to introduce such a clumsy and obviously false dichotomy. I neither believe in a God nor consider myself one. I have no desire to impose my worldview on anyone. Why do you think the schools are obliged to set aside time for prayer, contemplation, meditation, masturbation, or anything else not related to the curriculum? Are there not opportunities enough throughout the day for the devout to pray, the curious to ponder, and the flatulent to fart? Who's stopping you?

 

I don't give a rat's ass about the moment of silence. If the school board mandates it, whatever; it's no big deal. But if it is not offered, YOU deal with it. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the truly devout. Don't expect public schools to pander to the religious.

[vargo]

Ok... I had to give this some more thought. I can see your point about my post referring to any prayer. Out of anger I may of responded to quickly with out really understand what you mean . The whole "Moment of silence" took me off guard. So in farness I went home and decided to redo my post to accommodate your moment of silence idea.

I took my time proof read it and spell check it. I put aside my mental frustration on this topic.

OK.......If your moment of silence idea is passed by the goverment, it will doubtless lead to the state sanction of religion. TheEstablishment Clause requires government neutrality toward religion. Because the "moment of silence" law or legislation what ever it may be, is passed is inherently promotes prayer or meditation, it amounts to a state sanction of religion over non-religion. In addition, moments of silence conform most closely to the Christian practice of silent prayer and meditation. In contrast, many religions require adherents to chant, pray audibly or to move when praying. A moment of silence thus prefers one religious tradition over others.

A moment of silence may become coercive prayer. Any law or idea that establishes a moment of silence must be sensitive to the likelihood that the school, teachers or students will actively or tacitly coerce non-religious children and believers in non-majority faiths to participate in prayer. Some legislation or laws (what ever) exacerbates this probability by requiring all students to participate in the moment of silence. Safeguards must be established so that those who do not wish to pray are not harassed or ostracized as being anti-religious, amoral heathens.

Teachers will become the facilitators of religious practice. Under your proposed idea, teachers will be responsible for conducting the moment of silence during the school day. While teachers are prohibited from encouraging prayer, this is all but impossible to police and teachers retain the discretion to interpret and define the contours of the moment of silence. Some teachers may choose to refer to the moment of silence as a moment of reflection, of meditation, or of prayer or suggest that students comport themselves in an "appropriate and respectful" manner. In addition, some teachers may be prone to guide the students by suggesting a topic of thought such as morality, faith, or God. This is tantamount to putting the teachers in the role of quasi-religious leaders.

Moment of silence idea is completely unnecessary. Any person who needs 60 seconds in the day to organize their thoughts and prepare for the day’s events can do so at any time during the morning. They can do so before rising from bed, while in the shower, before breakfast, or on the way to school or work. In addition, prayer and bible study are not prohibited in public schools; they simply must be voluntary, student initiated and non-coercive and must not bear the imprimatur of the State. For example, students may pray silently on their own during breaks or study periods.

[Cerise]

Hope that helps. 

 

Not really. I still think that was a ridiculous thing to say.

[Guest Joseph]

Egad! What utter nonsense! Surely you don't mean to introduce such a clumsy and obviously false dichotomy. I neither believe in a God nor consider myself one.

 

This was to a specific person in a specific post due to the wording of that specific post. The are in fact hundreds of reasonings as to this example and I realize that, I was merely stating that the poster seemed to believe themselves god-like for attempting to force their absolutist ideals upon all of society based upon their unbelief without little regard for a middle ground.

 

I have no desire to impose my worldview on anyone. Why do you think the schools are obliged to set aside time for prayer, contemplation, meditation, masturbation, or anything else not related to the curriculum?

 

Because faithful children are in schools also. And it would limit their liberty of personal act to say they could not do such a thing. To offer them a set time to do such a thing that is not labeled as prayer-time is a non-issue in my book. If it were labeled "The Pat Robertson 700 Club Prayer to Jesus Minute" then I would see an issue. To set a minute to the side during which many teachers are taking roll (heh) has little issue with myself personally as I have seen it in action. And it is a wonderful thing to throw into the faces of parents who demand prayer back in schools. A middle ground so-to-speak inwhich no one is offended because no one is being forced to do anything...the moment is there to do with as the child sees fit.

 

Are there not opportunities enough throughout the day for the devout to pray, the curious to ponder, and the flatulent to fart? Who's stopping you?

 

Yes, but this goes beyond a personal break and/or even the prayer issue. It goes into a type of social issue inwhich whenever someone starts to hark that the schools no longer have prayer you can immediately answer that a "time is set asside for children to do as they have been enculturated." It is a wonderful policy to have in place to keep the right wingers at bay. This is especially necessary in the south as I am certain you can understand. Again, in a perfect world somethings wouldn't be, but as per the real world application of the moment of silence policy I have seen good things come of it. The personal liberty, the social acceptance, and the right for the kid to do as they wish during it. A VERY small minority actually use it for prayer, HEH.

 

I don't give a rat's ass about the moment of silence. If the school board mandates it, whatever; it's no big deal. But if it is not offered, YOU deal with it. It doesn't make a damn bit of difference to the truly devout. Don't expect public schools to pander to the religious.

 

I agree 100%. I am in favor of it simply because I see many personal liberties being removed from the classroom and it disgusts me. I think a kid has a right to do just about anything they want that doesn't hinder the learning process but in today's "prisons" and "social culture farms" that exist many are taught that they give up their rights (freedom of speech, search and seizure, et al) simply to have a place to learn...it really isn't right. The moment of silence works on many levels even though few kids use it for what those that draw up the policy thought it would be used for.

[Guest Joseph]

(snip)

OK.......If your moment of silence idea is passed by the goverment, it will doubtless lead to the state sanction of religion.

 

I rarely follow the "slippery slop mentality" because very few times in history does such things happen. If you see it as such then so be it but I see a "moment of silence" inwhich the teacher is either not in the room, taking roll, and/or grading papers as a non-issue and I do not see it as a means to force anyone into doing something they do not wish to do. Those that actually use this time are silent...by design.

 

The Establishment Clause requires government neutrality toward religion. Because the "moment of silence" law or legislation what ever it may be, is passed is inherently promotes prayer or meditation, it amounts to a state sanction of religion over non-religion.

 

That is a false assumption of what the kid is going to use the time for. It is false labeling. This is not "holy roller praze jebus minute" it is a moment of silence. The policy works very well in real world application and is for the kid to decide how to use it. Those that do are silent.

 

This is not the state saying "you shall pray now" it is the state saying "here is a moment of time for you to do so as you please." A completely neutral policy defined by each child under it.

 

In addition, moments of silence conform most closely to the Christian practice of silent prayer and meditation. In contrast, many religions require adherents to chant, pray audibly or to move when praying. A moment of silence thus prefers one religious tradition over others.

 

Again, the kid decides how to use this moment. If it does not "conform" to their religious acts/rituals then they can do another thing. It is not even labeled "moment of prayer" or anything...it is "it is time for a moment of silence." From that point on the kid is assigning the definition for that moment not the state.

 

(snip)

A moment of silence may become coercive prayer. Any law or idea that establishes a moment of silence must be sensitive to the likelihood that the school, teachers or students will actively or tacitly coerce non-religious children and believers in non-majority faiths to participate in prayer.

 

In the south, where the football team has prayer before the game and it normally ends in "in jesus name" and where the graduation speaches are many times very sectational, please understand that you would do good to enforce the policies and laws already on the books down here. The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of kids are judeo-christian and thus so are the teachers. This leads to a very coercive society in general. It is near impossible to ask a person to flip a switch and not be something they "are" when they are at their job. It would be the same as telling an atheist to not say GD when they hit their thumb, heh. Habits (and we are all servant to them) are exceptionally hard to limit to a given area. But this to the side I understand that the policies that exist many times do not relate to the reality of life very well. And for this reason I very much enjoy the idea of the "moment of silence" because it is a policy which actually is neutral, non-coercive, and sensitive to students and teachers alike. Unlike various other things that go on in our systems daily, I would think that this would be a non-issue. I would want to focus on the blantant disregard of the non-establishment claus in other parts of our schools than believe that this slippery slope would be arrived at by kids deciding on their own what to do with a short moment of time. Ce la vie.

 

(snip)

Some legislation or laws (what ever) exacerbates this probability by requiring all students to participate in the moment of silence.

 

The only thing "required" is to be silent. The rest is defined by the kid. Any and all "silent" activities are allowed to be done during this time period. It is really a non-issue.

 

(snip)

Teachers will become the facilitators of religious practice.

(snip)

 

Already answered under the slippery slope part so I will skip this Orwellian idea. The sky isn't falling it is purely a neutral policy that works very well...so far as my exposure to it has dictated.

[vargo]

I rarely follow the "slippery slop mentality" because very few times in history does such things happen.  If you see it as such then so be it but I see a "moment of silence" inwhich the teacher is either not in the room, taking roll, and/or grading papers as a non-issue and I do not see it as a means to force anyone into doing something they do not wish to do.  Those that actually use this time are silent...by design.

That is a false assumption of what the kid is going to use the time for.  It is false labeling.  This is not "holy roller praze jebus minute" it is a moment of silence.  The policy works very well in real world application and is for the kid to decide how to use it.  Those that do are silent.

 

This is not the state saying "you shall pray now" it is the state saying "here is a moment of time for you to do so as you please."  A completely neutral policy defined by each child under it.

Again, the kid decides how to use this moment.  If it does not "conform" to their religious acts/rituals then they can do another thing.  It is not even labeled "moment of prayer" or anything...it is "it is time for a moment of silence."  From that point on the kid is assigning the definition for that moment not the state.

In the south, where the football team has prayer before the game and it normally ends in "in jesus name" and where the graduation speaches are many times very sectational, please understand that you would do good to enforce the policies and laws already on the books down here.  The simple fact of the matter is that the majority of kids are judeo-christian and thus so are the teachers.  This leads to a very coercive society in general.  It is near impossible to ask a person to flip a switch and not be something they "are" when they are at their job.  It would be the same as telling an atheist to not say GD when they hit their thumb, heh.  Habits (and we are all servant to them) are exceptionally hard to limit to a given area.  But this to the side I understand that the policies that exist many times do not relate to the reality of life very well.  And for this reason I very much enjoy the idea of the "moment of silence" because it is a policy which actually is neutral, non-coercive, and sensitive to students and teachers alike.  Unlike various other things that go on in our systems daily, I would think that this would be a non-issue.  I would want to focus on the blantant disregard of the non-establishment claus in other parts of our schools than believe that this slippery slope would be arrived at by kids deciding on their own what to do with a short moment of time.  Ce la vie.

The only thing "required" is to be silent.  The rest is defined by the kid.  Any and all "silent" activities are allowed to be done during this time period.  It is really a non-issue.

Already answered under the slippery slope part so I will skip this Orwellian idea.  The sky isn't falling it is purely a neutral policy that works very well...so far as my exposure to it has dictated.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm sorry but for me "A moment of silence" (a.k.a. "moment of silent meditation") is a code expression for prayer time. The United States Constitution forbids any religion, including Christianity, from being the state religion. It forbids forcing every American to kowtow to the beliefs of any sect. The U.S. Supreme Court has ruled that requiring prayer in government institutions is unconstitutional, so Christians who want to have a public display of religious worship in places such as public schools, high school football fields, or government offices have created the ruse of the moment of silence. Even though judges and justices know that the moment of silence is code for prayer time, they have encouraged the ruse to flourish by publicly advising that laws requiring moments of silence are constitutional as long as they don't specify what is to be done during the moment of silence. Christian judges have rationalized their rulings by pretending that they don't know for sure that the reason for the law is to have a public display of people praying while pretending to be observing a moment of silence. Encouraging hypocritical behavior has become a pastime among certain Christian evangelists and judges, and the moment of silence marks one of their proudest achievements.

 

I'm going to say this again, moments of silence conform most closely to the Christian practice of silent prayer and meditation. Once again, prayer and bible study are not prohibited in public schools; they simply must be voluntary, student initiated and non-coercive and must not bear the imprimatur of the State. For example, students may pray silently on their own during breaks or study periods. That's fine with me.

 

Not everyone would agree with this but in a most southern schools when you have to stop what your doing to have a "Moment of Silence" its just another way of saying prayer time.