willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 A friend came over and I made the comment I wish christian shit wasn't on tv ever sunday. We debated over and over and I swear everything I said he either said "cause the bible says so or it's gods wake up call". I finally yelled I don't want to be a Christian!!! It seems like everytime I debate people in this town it's like if I debated with the tv they don't give a shit about what i say and say the same shit over and over. Maybe I should just say from now on I don't want to be a christian! that silenced him. He said I tried telling you but ok. Then he went to bed...I think I will tell him I am going somewhere tommorow and it's not church! I need to move I am so sick of these people being everywhere. I want to just say I don't want to talk about it leave me alone. Why do I owe any one an explanation or think I do. I think next time someone debates or witnesses I will just say "I don't care" after ever sentence till they shutup. I could just see this conversation now: Christian says jesus loves you Me: I don't care Christian says your going to hell Me: I don't care Christian says the bible says it's the truth Me:I don't care Christian says why don't you care? Me:I just don't care Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted April 5, 2009 Super Moderator Share Posted April 5, 2009 it's like if I debated with the tv That's a perfect analogy. They can't hear you, and they have a script to recite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 They are just as mindless as a tv too. No thoughts on anything they just recite the same crap over and over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeptic Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I know what you mean. I think I'm done debating, too. What finally turned me off was this "atheist" who said that atheism is a religion and that it takes a leap of faith to not believe in god. That led me to believe that there are people who just believe whatever they want to believe and no amount of debate or reason will convince them otherwise. There are lots of stupid people out there who choose to be stupid, and from what my fiance tells me, Alabama is a place that attracts such people. I've never been there, but I've heard stories of the kinds of craziness that goes on down there. I sincerely hope that you can escape or find people that you have more in common with. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 I never could understand the statement Atheism is a religion don't religions require a god or some supernatural stuff. Yea, some people don't want to use their brains it's easier to let a book and cult do the thinking for them so they mutter what ever they was told. I wish I could find some people around here I have stuff in common with or move maybe someday I will. If it wasn't for the internet I think i'd go nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Why do I owe any one an explanation or think I do. Maybe you could evaluate each argument/statement and then grade their performance as a witness. " Uh-uh-uh. Thats an ad hominem. Didn't they teach you that in Sunday School?" " John 3:16 (roll-eyeballs). You know, you should know better than to commit an appeal to authority. How long you been doing this witness thing?" " So creation tells us that God exists? Which form of the teleological argument are you using. What? Teleological. T-e-l-e-o- . You know what? Forget it. You should do better than this. I give you a D- " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Willy, this is the same reason I gave up debating with them. 99.9% of the time, it's not worth your time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 It's fun debating them on the forum but in person it's annoying. For some reason the fundys on the forum can atleast say more than 3 sentences about something. Maybe the ones here are just dumber in my town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Willy, this is the same reason I gave up debating with them. 99.9% of the time, it's not worth your time. Depends on what your goal is. If the purpose is to convert them, or convince them, or disprove them, or make them understand, yeah, it's most likely a lost case. If the purpose is to learn something about yourself, to get deeper into a personal understanding, to reflect and be introspective, to educate oneself, to improve one's own knowledge, then it's not necessarily a waste of time. I guess that would be the 0.1% you left open there. But there's a difference between debating binary-space and in meat-space. Online you can get more said without rude interruptions, while in real life discussion it's usually hopeless. The topic will go in 200 mph in all directions simultaneous and the answers have to be instantaneous and 100% correct and cover several hundred years of philosophy, science, and intricate and accurate knowledge, within the span of 5 seconds. So meat-space... forget it. Online, well, there can be some benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 I guess I am trying to change them so I can finally have some Atheist friends or friends in some open minded religion that's anti christian. I'd probally be better off not trying to do that and just hoping someday someone will join this group and say their in my town or something. Online is alot easier debating what you said seems to always happen when I try to debate offline. Willy, this is the same reason I gave up debating with them. 99.9% of the time, it's not worth your time. Depends on what your goal is. If the purpose is to convert them, or convince them, or disprove them, or make them understand, yeah, it's most likely a lost case. If the purpose is to learn something about yourself, to get deeper into a personal understanding, to reflect and be introspective, to educate oneself, to improve one's own knowledge, then it's not necessarily a waste of time. I guess that would be the 0.1% you left open there. But there's a difference between debating binary-space and in meat-space. Online you can get more said without rude interruptions, while in real life discussion it's usually hopeless. The topic will go in 200 mph in all directions simultaneous and the answers have to be instantaneous and 100% correct and cover several hundred years of philosophy, science, and intricate and accurate knowledge, within the span of 5 seconds. So meat-space... forget it. Online, well, there can be some benefits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 But there's a difference between debating binary-space and in meat-space. Online you can get more said without rude interruptions, while in real life discussion it's usually hopeless. The topic will go in 200 mph in all directions simultaneous and the answers have to be instantaneous and 100% correct and cover several hundred years of philosophy, science, and intricate and accurate knowledge, within the span of 5 seconds. So meat-space... forget it. Online, well, there can be some benefits. True - remember when I shared a cubical with the born-again fundy who brought up religion into every single conversation, even if it was about the weather? I eventually had to request a separate cube the first chance I got. I think though, there was a glimmer of hope when I used the invisible pink unicorn analogy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 I have a few Christian or religious friends, and I keep the discussion of religion out of the way. If one of my kids bring religion up when they're around, I try to divert the topic to something more innocent and less toxic. I have to pick the time, the place, the person, the topic, or I know it will get out of hand. And I have to have a feeling they're open for an honest discussion, and not just dogmatic positioning. Sometimes when I hear some friends bring up political issues, I bit my tongue when I disagree, because I can tell when it's more about chest-beating to simulate some technical prowess in that area, than it is an honest exchange of ideas. So Willy, learn to pick your fights. That's what it's about. And know what you want to have said, and keep it short and simple, and don't go outside the topic. But like Ame said, 99% of meat-space discussions are just waste. If they're out to "get" me, or convert me, they tend to run away crying after I talk to them... Which can be a bit discouraging... Unless they just want to talk about it in an honest way. The cubicle antagonist is red-flag, avoid him with gusto. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 I think I will just stick to discussing or arguing religion online it's alot easier when you can think about what to post and I think that's probally why the fundys here got more to say they think about it too. Offline it's just going to be a back and forth argument with about a second to think. If they are out to get me or convert me i'd probally be better off saying I don't care and say drop the subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Florduh's siggie says it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 That's true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R. S. Martin Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Willy, this is the same reason I gave up debating with them. 99.9% of the time, it's not worth your time. Depends on what your goal is. If the purpose is to convert them, or convince them, or disprove them, or make them understand, yeah, it's most likely a lost case. If the purpose is to learn something about yourself, to get deeper into a personal understanding, to reflect and be introspective, to educate oneself, to improve one's own knowledge, then it's not necessarily a waste of time. I guess that would be the 0.1% you left open there. But there's a difference between debating binary-space and in meat-space. Online you can get more said without rude interruptions, while in real life discussion it's usually hopeless. The topic will go in 200 mph in all directions simultaneous and the answers have to be instantaneous and 100% correct and cover several hundred years of philosophy, science, and intricate and accurate knowledge, within the span of 5 seconds. So meat-space... forget it. Online, well, there can be some benefits. Are you speaking from experience or something? The self-understanding I've acquired from debating on Craig's forums has been enormous. It has helped me develop my own ideas, work through residual feelings and doubts, and on the intellectual level it has helped enormously in my research of religion. Often they post links to debates or videos that they think show how stupid atheists are or how wise their own are. This has broadened my research base a LOT. If I can take the stuff I learn from online videos and internet discussions and go into the local universities and have meaningful discussions with the people there about the same topics, then I know I'm learning real stuff--not just fluff. As for real life or meat space. I seldom disclose my total apostacy to people unless I know I'm talking to nonreligious people OR I know the relationship can withstand the disclosure, i.e. the disclosure won't change the relationship. Willy, how about looking up an atheist or humanist or freethinker group in your area? Surely the atheist who thinks atheism is a religion is not typical of these groups. I don't try to change the religious people around me. Doesn't work. Besides, I'm not sure about the ethics of it. I just don't know. I am interested in what people believe so I can sometimes get them to tell me what church they go to and what they believe. I like looking up their church websites. This is just a personal interest of mine that I've had as far back as I can remember. I still wear the traditional Mennonite dress but I no longer go to the Mennonite church so they ask what church I go to now. I say I don't go to church. I offer no more information though I think some people may be able to deduce from other things I value that I am rather far away from fundamentalist Christianity. A rabid fundy in evangelizing mode won't stop at anything and I think self-defense becomes number 1 priority for the victim in such a situation. But I'm talking mostly about people who care about protecting their career (there's laws about what they can and cannot say in their professional capacity) or who wish to retain neighbourly relationships. This is Canada and we don't have that large a population. Religion is divisive. Only nuts talk religion on the street. Then again, there are quite a number of hardwood trees native to Canada that grow nuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 Are you speaking from experience or something? You betcha! I do have the experience of people leaving me crying. Now, on campus, when I see the Christian tables and the gospel-preachers with the Bibles held-high, I just put on the headset, start the music, and walk by without looking at them. (It's like homeless people... just don't give them an eye, or they'll strike a conversation with you... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 Most groups are far away I don't have a car and This town don't have a greyhound place anymore. I'd need to find someone in this town maybe looking into Alabama groups might help. I'm not sure if I would fit in with a completely Atheist group tho I still like somethings in Wicca but the mythology I could do without. I don't know I might fit in I have been in the Freespeechatheist group for a good while and seem to be ok there. I'm courious why do you dress like a Mennonite do you not like modern clothes or like making your own? Mennonites interest me as far as how they live without modern technology it seems like it'd be pretty rough. Willy[/b], how about looking up an atheist or humanist or freethinker group in your area? Surely the atheist who thinks atheism is a religion is not typical of these groups. I don't try to change the religious people around me. Doesn't work. Besides, I'm not sure about the ethics of it. I just don't know. I am interested in what people believe so I can sometimes get them to tell me what church they go to and what they believe. I like looking up their church websites. This is just a personal interest of mine that I've had as far back as I can remember. I still wear the traditional Mennonite dress but I no longer go to the Mennonite church so they ask what church I go to now. I say I don't go to church. I offer no more information though I think some people may be able to deduce from other things I value that I am rather far away from fundamentalist Christianity. A rabid fundy in evangelizing mode won't stop at anything and I think self-defense becomes number 1 priority for the victim in such a situation. But I'm talking mostly about people who care about protecting their career (there's laws about what they can and cannot say in their professional capacity) or who wish to retain neighbourly relationships. This is Canada and we don't have that large a population. Religion is divisive. Only nuts talk religion on the street. Then again, there are quite a number of hardwood trees native to Canada that grow nuts... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 What do you do if they walk beside you on the side walk and try to get you over there? There's a big building down my road where they have conferences and Everytime I walk threw town they bug me. Lately, I been pretending to talk on my cellphone that's worked so far. Are you speaking from experience or something? You betcha! I do have the experience of people leaving me crying. Now, on campus, when I see the Christian tables and the gospel-preachers with the Bibles held-high, I just put on the headset, start the music, and walk by without looking at them. (It's like homeless people... just don't give them an eye, or they'll strike a conversation with you... ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 What do you do if they walk beside you on the side walk and try to get you over there?There's a big building down my road where they have conferences and Everytime I walk threw town they bug me. Lately, I been pretending to talk on my cellphone that's worked so far. Just say that you don't have time, or that you already have your beliefs without specifying what, and say you're content and happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 That sounds like a good thing to say to any fundy wanting to witness..I have my beliefs and I am content and happy with them. What do you do if they walk beside you on the side walk and try to get you over there?There's a big building down my road where they have conferences and Everytime I walk threw town they bug me. Lately, I been pretending to talk on my cellphone that's worked so far. Just say that you don't have time, or that you already have your beliefs without specifying what, and say you're content and happy with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted April 5, 2009 Share Posted April 5, 2009 That sounds like a good thing to say to any fundy wanting to witness..I have my beliefs and I am content and happy with them. Exactly. And it's not their damn business to know what you believe or not. This country happens to have the freedom to believe or not to believe, and you have the right to say "no thanks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willybilly30 Posted April 5, 2009 Author Share Posted April 5, 2009 That's true I can say it's non of their buisness what I believe...They just want to know so they can argue with me all day anyway. I got better things to do. That sounds like a good thing to say to any fundy wanting to witness..I have my beliefs and I am content and happy with them. Exactly. And it's not their damn business to know what you believe or not. This country happens to have the freedom to believe or not to believe, and you have the right to say "no thanks." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neon Genesis Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 Most groups are far away I don't have a car and This town don't have a greyhound place anymore.I'd need to find someone in this town maybe looking into Alabama groups might help. I'm not sure if I would fit in with a completely Atheist group tho I still like somethings in Wicca but the mythology I could do without. Maybe you could see if there's a local Unitarian Universalist church in the area? I've never been to to one myself to know what it's like, but I haven't heard any major complaints about them and from what I understand, you can basically believe what you want to in their church. Another possible good reason for debating with fundies is that for any xtians that are already having doubts that could be reading the discussion is that it might help them to finally come over to the dark side and can help newbie ex-xtians become more confident in themselves. But I agree that for the most part it's a waste of time which is one of the reasons why I tend to stick to debating with fundies at ex-c for the most part. I've never tried debating offline to know what it's like, but I imagine it must be easier to do online. Online it's easy to post links to sites for your sources and you can just link a fundie to a site like talkorigins.org if you want to explain something complicated like biology to them whereas I'd imagine that offline you'd have to have all your arguments and sources and printed material memorized before you engage in a debate with a fundie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabula Rasa Posted April 6, 2009 Share Posted April 6, 2009 What do you do if they walk beside you on the side walk and try to get you over there?There's a big building down my road where they have conferences and Everytime I walk threw town they bug me. Lately, I been pretending to talk on my cellphone that's worked so far. Hey Willybilly! If you want to mess with them, mention a good bible atrocity. When they start, tell them" No thanks, I don't worship gods that like to eat little girls."(Jepthar's daughter-Judges 11) then walk away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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