How Involved Is Bible God In Death?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I'm interested to hear from christians what level of involvement they think the christian god has in death.

 

Does he plan each person's death precisely or is it a matter of letting nature/circumstances take their course? Or does it work some other way?

 

For example, on September 11, 2001 were the people killed in the terrorist attacks put into the planes and buildings by god (including the terrorists who died), or were they there by chance? What about children who die of cancer? Is that god's plan or just the course of nature?

[Guest end3]

I'm interested to hear from christians what level of involvement they think the christian god has in death.

 

Does he plan each person's death precisely or is it a matter of letting nature/circumstances take their course? Or does it work some other way?

 

For example, on September 11, 2001 were the people killed in the terrorist attacks put into the planes and buildings by god (including the terrorists who died), or were they there by chance? What about children who die of cancer? Is that god's plan or just the course of nature?

 

TFT,

 

I have never had a personal revelation concerning the aforementioned questions. My gut "feeling" is God is more about life than death.

 

To make a stab....why wouldn't it be to let nature take it's course? What would be the need for Jesus if nature we not invoved.*

 

 

 

*All opinions are from the hip and have not been pondered much, if any.

[Deva]

As a Baptist Christian my position would be that we are all deserving of death since we have rebelled against God. Doesn't really matter what form it comes in. No innocent people past the age of accountability. Since they were mostly adults they were past that point. Of course if there were people in the towers who accepted Christ, then they went to heaven. The rest got what they rightfully deserve.

 

Satan is the God of this world, so can't say that God had a total hand in it, but he would have permitted it.

 

As far as babies go, they went to heaven. No problem there. Sorry.

 

Yes, its crazy and brutal, but that was the view.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

TFT,

 

I have never had a personal revelation concerning the aforementioned questions. My gut "feeling" is God is more about life than death.

 

To make a stab....why wouldn't it be to let nature take it's course? What would be the need for Jesus if nature we not invoved.*

 

 

 

*All opinions are from the hip and have not been pondered much, if any.

Thank you end3. I'm interested in the personal revelation statement - have you had personal revelations about other issues? If so, do you mind describing how that has occurred (what you experienced?)

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

As a Baptist Christian my position would be that we are all deserving of death since we have rebelled against God. Doesn't really matter what form it comes in. No innocent people past the age of accountability. Since they were mostly adults they were past that point. Of course if there were people in the towers who accepted Christ, then they went to heaven. The rest got what they rightfully deserve.

 

Satan is the God of this world, so can't say that God had a total hand in it, but he would have permitted it.

 

As far as babies go, they went to heaven. No problem there. Sorry.

 

Yes, its crazy and brutal, but that was the view.

Thanks DL - but as a Baptist did you think that satan got to choose when/how people died, and that god just intervened once in a while to override satan? I was a Southern Baptist and I was taught that god knew when we'd die, etc, but I don't recall ever discussing whether god had actually determined when/where/how. I prayed to god to heal people who were sick, so I guess I felt that he at least could control the outcome if he wanted.

[Deva]

Thanks DL - but as a Baptist did you think that satan got to choose when/how people died, and that god just intervened once in a while to override satan? I was a Southern Baptist and I was taught that god knew when we'd die, etc, but I don't recall ever discussing whether god had actually determined when/where/how. I prayed to god to heal people who were sick, so I guess I felt that he at least could control the outcome if he wanted.

 

Its actually hard to think like a Baptist again since its been 20 years I have been working on getting out of it, but I will try. I don't actually remember being too concerned with the determination question. I suppose that ultimately I did believe that god was in control of whatever happened. Otherwise, as you suggest, prayer would be useless.

 

I am not sure how much this relates to the death question, but there is this idea of handing people over to Satan. That is, if you try to witness to someone and they reject Christ, they are then under Satan's power and not your concern any longer. Otherwise, their blood is on your hands. It was terrible the way you were made to feel guilty if you didn't go soul winning.

 

I am not sure it was ever stated how much power Satan had over death but the whole idea was that Satan was given power on earth and I am pretty sure that included influencing outward circumstances of all kinds.

[Guest end3]

TFT,

 

I have never had a personal revelation concerning the aforementioned questions. My gut "feeling" is God is more about life than death.

 

To make a stab....why wouldn't it be to let nature take it's course? What would be the need for Jesus if nature we not invoved.*

 

 

 

*All opinions are from the hip and have not been pondered much, if any.

Thank you end3. I'm interested in the personal revelation statement - have you had personal revelations about other issues? If so, do you mind describing how that has occurred (what you experienced?)

 

 

My "revelations" are usually about relationships/understandings that I would not thought myself to have put together on my own. Also, they are normally about experienced reality matching to a Biblical concept. When I consider them from God, there is a physiological reponse (goose bumps/emotion) with these revelations.

 

FWIW, the last one that I had concerned Jesus being the "fruit" of the Tree of Life (the cross), planted outside of the Garden of Eden for us to "eat".....so we would have life after death. That one was really big for me as I had been visiting with you yahoos for so long I was contemplating disbelief. There have been a few more confirmations since, but they are all reminders.

 

I know people have talked about the goosebumps before, but it still works for me. And I am not trying to be rude by saying that God "talks" to me as I know many here have desired "something" from God. I am just saying it is real to me as I honestly have considered quitting, but these things keep popping up. It is like God saying, "I am still here".

[Kathlene]

TFT,

 

I have never had a personal revelation concerning the aforementioned questions. My gut "feeling" is God is more about life than death.

 

To make a stab....why wouldn't it be to let nature take it's course? What would be the need for Jesus if nature we not invoved.*

 

 

 

*All opinions are from the hip and have not been pondered much, if any.

Thank you end3. I'm interested in the personal revelation statement - have you had personal revelations about other issues? If so, do you mind describing how that has occurred (what you experienced?)

 

 

My "revelations" are usually about relationships/understandings that I would not thought myself to have put together on my own. Also, they are normally about experienced reality matching to a Biblical concept. When I consider them from God, there is a physiological reponse (goose bumps/emotion) with these revelations.

 

FWIW, the last one that I had concerned Jesus being the "fruit" of the Tree of Life (the cross), planted outside of the Garden of Eden for us to "eat".....so we would have life after death. That one was really big for me as I had been visiting with you yahoos for so long I was contemplating disbelief. There have been a few more confirmations since, but they are all reminders.

 

I know people have talked about the goosebumps before, but it still works for me. And I am not trying to be rude by saying that God "talks" to me as I know many here have desired "something" from God. I am just saying it is real to me as I honestly have considered quitting, but these things keep popping up. It is like God saying, "I am still here".

End, I have a question for you. Do you think when a believer walks away from God he tries to stop them by giving them any of these experiences to show He is with them, or by sending someone to try and talk to them or see what is the matter? Im curious to your take on it. I have just realised that since walking away from god 4months ago that not once have I felt god try and reach out to me and convince me otherwise or have really anyone I know to talk to me or some miraculous occurence that would give me goosebumps and know he was still real and cared about me. It may be because I have so called switched off that way of thinking in my head, or it may be that the entire time I was christian I made a lot of it up! I am starting to believe the latter.

 

I was one of those christians that always felt god's presence and have him 'talk' to me....but now I feel totally jipped by it all. I look at it differently now because when I correlate it with my life there was no fruit. How can I have been a full on christian for 13yrs and not do anything...apart from waiting on god..waiting for his prophetic words, waiting to see someone finally get saved which btw never happened. Those are my personal experiences...thanks for listening to the ramble. I was just curious to see your point of view.

[Guest end3]

End, I have a question for you. Do you think when a believer walks away from God he tries to stop them by giving them any of these experiences to show He is with them, or by sending someone to try and talk to them or see what is the matter? Im curious to your take on it. I have just realised that since walking away from god 4months ago that not once have I felt god try and reach out to me and convince me otherwise or have really anyone I know to talk to me or some miraculous occurence that would give me goosebumps and know he was still real and cared about me. It may be because I have so called switched off that way of thinking in my head, or it may be that the entire time I was christian I made a lot of it up! I am starting to believe the latter.

 

Kathlene, I think God cares for every last one of us. Truth is, we do a poor job in representing the original meaning for our lives. In an attempt, we try to mold others into a structure other than that which would have been formed by God. What I am trying to say is, you may not be walking away from God, but towards Him.

 

I was one of those christians that always felt god's presence and have him 'talk' to me....but now I feel totally jipped by it all.

 

I would think it affirming that you are not camped in one spot any more.......but I think the evil lies(sp) in the intent during the journey.....for me, I am fearful of purposefully denying God and traveling that path.....I don't think much good is at the end.

 

I look at it differently now because when I correlate it with my life there was no fruit. How can I have been a full on christian for 13yrs and not do anything...apart from waiting on god..waiting for his prophetic words, waiting to see someone finally get saved which btw never happened. Those are my personal experiences...thanks for listening to the ramble. I was just curious to see your point of view.

 

K, again, I believe there are entities of Good and evil and choices and I associate Jesus with a sign and a doorway and a path that leads us past this environment. And please listen, regardless of how we label these things, I don't believe God wishes for us to be harmed nor misled.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

My "revelations" are usually about relationships/understandings that I would not thought myself to have put together on my own. Also, they are normally about experienced reality matching to a Biblical concept. When I consider them from God, there is a physiological reponse (goose bumps/emotion) with these revelations.

Thanks again end3 - this is a topic that I find fascinating and have spoken to several christians about. I even got kicked off a christian board for starting a thread about it!

 

Have you considered the possibility that the goosebumps and emotions are just physical in nature? I still get goosebumps as an atheist when I have moments of wonder and awe about the beauty of arts or nature or even when I have an extraordinary atheistic thought! I'd wager that Hindus, Muslims, etc. have the same physical responses in their moments of religious revelation too. To me, that makes a physical response such as goosebumps, etc. difficult to use as a sign that a revelation is truly from god. How have you overcome that?

 

Also, would it be possible that satan is feeding you bad information but giving you the goosebumps/emotional response? I don't believe there is a satan, and I'm assuming you do (sorry if I'm wrong there), but I think for someone who does believe in a powerful satan, that would have to be a possibility too.

 

TF

[Heimdall]

My "revelations" are usually about relationships/understandings that I would not thought myself to have put together on my own.

In other words you have a "gut feeling"...something that we investigators develope after a few cases. One of our supervisors calls it an "intuitive leap of logic". So I would call what your belief system labels "revelations" to be nothing more than a common human trait. - Heimdall

[Guest end3]

Have you considered the possibility that the goosebumps and emotions are just physical in nature?

 

Yes, I have see discussions here about the same responses.

 

I still get goosebumps as an atheist when I have moments of wonder and awe about the beauty of arts or nature or even when I have an extraordinary atheistic thought! I'd wager that Hindus, Muslims, etc. have the same physical responses in their moments of religious revelation too. To me, that makes a physical response such as goosebumps, etc. difficult to use as a sign that a revelation is truly from god. How have you overcome that?

 

No, just faith.

 

Also, would it be possible that satan is feeding you bad information but giving you the goosebumps/emotional response? I don't believe there is a satan, and I'm assuming you do (sorry if I'm wrong there), but I think for someone who does believe in a powerful satan, that would have to be a possibility too.

 

I don't have goosebumps when I ponder evil....just makes me mad.

[Ouroboros]

I get goosebumps when I listen to some heathen music. But I don't know if I get goosebumps by pondering evil either, nor do I get it when pondering good. Pondering is pondering. So what does goosebumps then really prove? I had goosebumps the other day when Adam Lambert sang It's a Mad World, by Tears for Fears, on American Idol. They say he's gay... maybe God is gay too? Anyway, he missed the pitch at the end, but amazing... First time Simon Cowell gave a contestant a standing ovation. So can non-Christian music, sung by a gay performer, stir emotions or is it faith?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I don't have goosebumps when I ponder evil....just makes me mad.

 

But it's not always obvious evil is it? Couldn't satan send you off in just a slightly wrong direction?

 

For example, my mother is a devout and sincere Southern Baptist. She believes she knows the true path to salvation. Her best friend belongs to a Church of Christ where they have a slightly different understanding of salvation (just add water), but are equally devout and sincere. I work with a Mormon (LDS) who has a very different view of salvation and the afterlife. I have discussed this topic with all three and they all feel that god has confirmed their beliefs to them.

 

These are all good people who want to know the truth. Has god lied to at least two of them? Are goosebumps and emotions a sufficient test to pick the winner?

[Guest end3]

I get goosebumps when I listen to some heathen music. But I don't know if I get goosebumps by pondering evil either, nor do I get it when pondering good. Pondering is pondering. So what does goosebumps then really prove? I had goosebumps the other day when Adam Lambert sang It's a Mad World, by Tears for Fears, on American Idol. They say he's gay... maybe God is gay too? Anyway, he missed the pitch at the end, but amazing... First time Simon Cowell gave a contestant a standing ovation. So can non-Christian music, sung by a gay performer, stir emotions or is it faith?

 

Perhaps goosebumps in relation to God is learned for me? I, like you, have goosebumps for other things as well.....so who knows.

[Guest end3]

I don't have goosebumps when I ponder evil....just makes me mad.

 

But it's not always obvious evil is it? Couldn't satan send you off in just a slightly wrong direction?

 

For example, my mother is a devout and sincere Southern Baptist. She believes she knows the true path to salvation. Her best friend belongs to a Church of Christ where they have a slightly different understanding of salvation (just add water), but are equally devout and sincere. I work with a Mormon (LDS) who has a very different view of salvation and the afterlife. I have discussed this topic with all three and they all feel that god has confirmed their beliefs to them.

 

These are all good people who want to know the truth. Has god lied to at least two of them? Are goosebumps and emotions a sufficient test to pick the winner?

 

I understand your argument, but how are to measure objective Truth in this environment? As I stated earlier, the goosebumps work for me.

[Guest end3]

My "revelations" are usually about relationships/understandings that I would not thought myself to have put together on my own.

In other words you have a "gut feeling"...something that we investigators develope after a few cases. One of our supervisors calls it an "intuitive leap of logic". So I would call what your belief system labels "revelations" to be nothing more than a common human trait. - Heimdall

 

 

No H, a gut feeling is what I would view as intuitive. What I am describing would not be intuitive for me. I am descibing large abstract jumps in relationships......pattern to pattern. Perhaps it is common, but not for me.

[Ouroboros]

Perhaps goosebumps in relation to God is learned for me? I, like you, have goosebumps for other things as well.....so who knows.

I think it's when something connects with your past on some deeper level. In other words, I don't think the goosebumps are connecting to God, but it connects to your personal experience. Like for me, certain kinds of music touches me. And it happens to be techno/trance/dance songs, as well as heavy-metal or even death-metal sometimes. At times there are spiritual songs from almost any kind of religion. Sometimes it can be a beautiful pictures, or something in nature while I'm biking. Or even sitting down, outside, at the deck, smoking a cigar in the afternoon, with a nice glass of Russian Imperial Stout, and reading a book or watching a good TV-show. The tranquility and peace can be something that make me feel good. So really, maybe the whole goosebumps-thing is when we connect with our inner person, and the kind of "god" we are in this world? So you get your feel-good-fix from getting in touch with Youhweh.

[Heimdall]

No H, a gut feeling is what I would view as intuitive. What I am describing would not be intuitive for me. I am descibing large abstract jumps in relationships......pattern to pattern. Perhaps it is common, but not for me.

You evidentially have never taken any profiler classes...that is what is taught to look for...patterns...it is a normal and natural human thing, we all look for patterns and a profiler (which I never would want to be) is trained to not only look for these patterns but to exterpolate these to come up with a profile for a criminal...as I said, your "revelations" are nothing more than what other humans have and not "god given"...LOL..Heck you can't even give any verifiable that your god ever existed. - Heimdall

[Guest end3]

No H, a gut feeling is what I would view as intuitive. What I am describing would not be intuitive for me. I am descibing large abstract jumps in relationships......pattern to pattern. Perhaps it is common, but not for me.

You evidentially have never taken any profiler classes...that is what is taught to look for...patterns...it is a normal and natural human thing, we all look for patterns and a profiler (which I never would want to be) is trained to not only look for these patterns but to exterpolate these to come up with a profile for a criminal...as I said, your "revelations" are nothing more than what other humans have and not "god given"...LOL..Heck you can't even give any verifiable that your god ever existed. - Heimdall

 

You will find out on death's door brother...

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot....happy Passover! And Don't forget John 8:44 children of the devil!

[today]

I'm interested to hear from christians what level of involvement they think the christian god has in death.

 

Does he plan each person's death precisely or is it a matter of letting nature/circumstances take their course? Or does it work some other way?

 

For example, on September 11, 2001 were the people killed in the terrorist attacks put into the planes and buildings by god (including the terrorists who died), or were they there by chance? What about children who die of cancer? Is that god's plan or just the course of nature?

HE IS THE BEGINNING AND THE END, he is the ALPHA and OMEGA, and he knows everything in the middle, he created all, he is in control. He is involved in every thing. he created evil.Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

GOD did not Kill those people on the plane or in the building, man did and if you really look at cancer it was probably some thing that man made that causes cancer, so then again man caused it.

 

GOD CREATED US TO PROCREATE NOT CREATE AND TEND HIS GARDEN (HEAVEN) UNTIL MAN QUITS TRYING TO CREATE AND THINK HE CAN CREATE, WE (HUMANS) WILL NEVER BE TRULY PROSPEROUS, and we will continue to pollute and contaminate what he has given us charge over. and that will lead to many more deaths that has mans (humans) mark.

[Legion]

Today is the greatest

Day I've ever known

Can't live for tomorrow

Tomorrow's much too long

I burn my eyes out

Before I get out

[Heimdall]

You will find out on death's door brother...

Yep, I am going to request that the Creator let me sit in on your explanation of why you wasted your life following what is patently an evil and false religion. I do like waffling and tap dancing...LOL - Heimdall

[Guest end3]

You will find out on death's door brother...

Yep, I am going to request that the Creator let me sit in on your explanation of why you wasted your life following what is patently an evil and false religion. I do like waffling and tap dancing...LOL - Heimdall

 

It's just a coincedence that it says by faith, and it is just a coincedence that science can't define truth....I see....

[Heimdall]

As the school boy said, "Faith is believing what you dang well know is a bald faced lie!" Your rmythologyion can't even agree on what century your god was born in, much less what he said on the cross or who found the tomb open...LOL - Heimdall