Guest SerenityNow Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 On another thread it was implied that because the word "conscience" wasn't used before 2,000 years ago that people didn't have one until Jesus came. Meaning that we all are good to go with god concerning "NO ONE comes to the father except through me" because we now have a conscience which means that we all have the spirit of Jesus, which ensures that we are all saved. The death of Jesus was used to justify how conscience came into being. Might I ask then...what of the people before the death of Jesus? Were they all evil? Were they incapable of doing good? How could Buddha have been good without the spirit of Jesus/conscience? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I was taught that the good, upstanding, concerned about humanity, moral philanthropist who didn't have Jesus was the ultimate evil and the best example of a life that was marching in step with the devil and his lies. The dude who was closest to getting saved was the wife beating drunk, gutter dwelling pants pisser who was on the verge of hitting rock bottom. It wasn't how you lived or what you did or who you helped in life that mattered. The only important thing was DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE JESUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 The death of Jesus was used to justify how conscience came into being. Might I ask then...what of the people before the death of Jesus? Were they all evil? Were they incapable of doing good? How could Buddha have been good without the spirit of Jesus/conscience? That and what happens to those in our day who have never heard the name Jesus were the two biggest stumbling blocks that caused me to start questioning my faith. I've never heard a good answer for the question about how those who lived prior to christ would be judged. The only answer I've ever gotten is that they will be judged according to their own conscience, which makes no sense in light of the argument of saved by trust in christ's sacrifice. Even if they were saved by the sacrifices done in the temple it doesn't explain what happened to those who were not Jews and who had never heard of the Jewish faith. It all falls apart if you give it less than 5 minutes of serious thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 I was taught that the good, upstanding, concerned about humanity, moral philanthropist who didn't have Jesus was the ultimate evil and the best example of a life that was marching in step with the devil and his lies. The dude who was closest to getting saved was the wife beating drunk, gutter dwelling pants pisser who was on the verge of hitting rock bottom. It wasn't how you lived or what you did or who you helped in life that mattered. The only important thing was DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE JESUS. I was taught this also. So I guess the true believers are a composite of the dregs of society. Woo hoo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 To say that the concept of "conscience" originated with Jesus is truly ridiculous crapola. "There is no witness so terrible and no accuser so powerful as conscience which dwells within us." Sophicles BCE 495-406 "Though the dungeon, the scourge, and the executioner be absent, the guilty mind can apply the goad and scorch with blows." Lucretius BCE 95-55 "There is one thing alone that stands the brunt of life throughout its length: a quite guilty conscience." Euripedes BCE 480-406 "If you look into your own heart, you find nothing wrong there, what is there to fear?" Confucius BCE 551-479. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Mythra is the googlemeister. Typed in "history of conscience", and started google-oogling. FamousQuote_Conscience_1_.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Damn. You tricked me into giving away my secret. I wanted y'all to think I was smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Thankful... I have given this a lot of thought over the past year. I believe we are all born with a conscience and a desire to do right over wrong. Maybe I'm too simple minded but I believe if someone does something to me that is hurtful, I then know how it feels and want to make sure I don't do the same to someone else. My conscience has been there from the moment I could understand right from wrong. (really from conception) There were many wonderful people in the Old Testament.....(thinks about Ruth) and that was long before Christ. Maybe I'm missing the point here but I think conscience is part of our minds.......which we were given when we were conceived beginning with the very first person who lived. Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Well, I guess you know how to "word" the search , better than I do. Conscience then was in existance before jesus and since jesus spirit = conscience in some views, then jesus didn't need to die in order that everyone receive his spirit/conscience because they already had said spirit/conscience. Correct? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> It's not the reason he died anyway...... it was forgiveness and redemption. I'm not looking for a debate on that.....just clarifying the Christian perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 As I get the bible, Jesus was "here" to "bring light to all men".. To help them realize that they were born into sin and to realize just how horrific was God's opinion of sin, and to guilt them into repentence. This kind of carries conscience to a new level, since many of the things that are called sin do not seem to violate a person's conscience. If it doesn't hurt anyone else, most people have trouble believing things like simple lust or covetousness or white lies are inherently bad and worthy of troubling yourself over. However, even this stuff isn't new.. Original sin and guilt are present in the Orphic Mysteries (Greek Mythology) Now, this one I didn't have to google. Son of a bitch. Maybe I am smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 Oh yes, I know that is how you see it. :-) However, it was posted on the debate board by another Christian that believes that Jesus Spirit/Conscience are one in the same and that whether we accept Jesus or not that we are all saved, regardless, because we have the Spirit of Jesus/conscienc in us, that helps us decide right from wrong. ;-) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That sounds like Amanda. Am I close? Amanda and I are not of the same faith. I figured that out a long time ago. I was glad to see that Mythra actually said it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 In my last church, the pastor actually said that it is impossible for people to do anything good outside of Jesus. If an unsaved person does something that "looks" good, it isn't really counted as good by God because they have ulterior motives. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted August 11, 2005 Share Posted August 11, 2005 In my last church, the pastor actually said that it is impossible for people to do anything good outside of Jesus. If an unsaved person does something that "looks" good, it isn't really counted as good by God because they have ulterior motives. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Exactly what I was taught, too. The devil can disguise himself as an angel of light. We are the world. We are the children. Raised millions for the starving in Africa. EVIL EVIL EVIL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 In my last church, the pastor actually said that it is impossible for people to do anything good outside of Jesus. If an unsaved person does something that "looks" good, it isn't really counted as good by God because they have ulterior motives. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's twisted. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But it is in line with Martin Luther. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 I was taught that the good, upstanding, concerned about humanity, moral philanthropist who didn't have Jesus was the ultimate evil and the best example of a life that was marching in step with the devil and his lies.---------------------------------------------- The only important thing was DO YOU OR DO YOU NOT HAVE JESUS. I, too, can vouch for this doctrine being taught to Christians. In Fundie Baptist/Presbyterian circles it is known as The Sin Of Being Good. It is a twisted, insidious doctrine that the church has been polishing ever since the days of the Reformation. Believers are absolutely convinced that being "good" is a sin, and an affront to "God". You must be REALLY fucked up in the head to understand/believe this doctrine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 Conscience is a cultural thing, IMHO. Just like ethics. Everyone has a brain and the ability to learn what their culture says is good and what is bad from their parents/caregivers/society in general. But what we consider good and what another culture considers good may not be the same thing. It doesn't mean the person in the other culture doesn't have a conscience, it just means they consider different things good than we do, and there's usually a reason for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 That's twisted. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> But what about "The fool saith in his heart there is no God. There are none that doeth good, no not one." The Bible says that unbelievers don't do good, period. Hey, Tap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 yep, that's the verse that is used. Thanks for digging that up, JP. If the Bible says that there are none that do good, and someone does good outside of Jesus, then the Bible would be wrong. Therefore, the Baptists preach that what "looks" good is not really good at all, because the person has selfish motives for the good work. How can ANYONE avoid "selfish motives"? Isn't the entire point of "belief" and "repenting" to be "saved" from "eternal damnation"? What can possibly be any MORE selfish than saving your soul from torment? I'm being rhetorical, because I KNOW that Baptists don't view "faith" as a "work", nor belief as being selfishly motivated. Just good decision making. Fuck it. Just more evidence that these people are insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 That and what happens to those in our day who have never heard the name Jesus were the two biggest stumbling blocks that caused me to start questioning my faith. I've never heard a good answer for the question about how those who lived prior to christ would be judged. The only answer I've ever gotten is that they will be judged according to their own conscience, which makes no sense in light of the argument of saved by trust in christ's sacrifice. Even if they were saved by the sacrifices done in the temple it doesn't explain what happened to those who were not Jews and who had never heard of the Jewish faith. It all falls apart if you give it less than 5 minutes of serious thought. I see another problem with this in that even if they were judged according to their conscience, what if someone was basically basically good but also sinned? Like maybe they cared for the poor and fed the homeless, but they also were very sexually lustful and gave into it? If there's only heaven or hell and no in-between, where do they go? If they go to heaven then it seems Jesus was never needed in the first place. If they go to hell (which they should if even one trivial sin lands one in hell), then they are treated no different than the people after Jesus. Being judged on their conscience just doesn't seem to work with Christianity.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 yep, that's the verse that is used. Thanks for digging that up, JP. If the Bible says that there are none that do good, and someone does good outside of Jesus, then the Bible would be wrong. Therefore, the Baptists preach that what "looks" good is not really good at all, because the person has selfish motives for the good work. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> When I worked for Home Care about a year and a half ago, one of our patients literally had nothing to her name. Her son had raided her apartment while she was in the hospital. So I took up a collection and I donated several things to her, including a radio, rugs, and little knick-knacks. The only selfish reason I had was that I enjoyed the feeling of giving to someone in need, and I really wanted to help this woman. She said it was like Christmas for her when our social worker dropped the stuff off. There are none that doeth good, huh? Bullshit. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 (Sister M) In essence, there needs to be a foothold in a person's life for a pastor (or christian witnesser) to latch on to and start making the person feel like worthless cow dung. Tear 'em down, build 'em back up. If they have no place to start tearing down, they can't get the person demoralized enough to accept anything they say and become an obedient church member. That's the first step in brainwashing someone! (Sister M) Tear 'em down, build 'em back up. That is the essence and intent of brainwashing. Break the person as they are down through various tactics, and then build them back up as you (the brainwasher) want them to be. In the Church's case - a new and obedient "creation in Kryasst". Excellent description of the fundie brainwashing process, Sister M! I think the brainwashing also explains the residual "End Times" fears some of us have too, as discussed in this thread. It takes a lot of time and effort to completely deprogram. I don't know that I'll ever be completely deprogrammed, but Gawd willing I will be! Glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Jeff Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 (Brother JP1283) There are none that doeth good, huh? Oh, but your motives were selfish because they weren't aimed at bringing KRYASST the glory! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 That's twisted. But it is in line with Martin Luther. It's also reasonable in light of the binary hell doctrine. And yeah, it is twisted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 I don't know that I'll ever be completely deprogrammed, but Gawd willing I will be! Glory! You will come close. I still have a few issues, but hell doesn't bother me in the least any more. It used to be the biggest issue in my life. I had to study my way out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I, too, can vouch for this doctrine being taught to Christians. In Fundie Baptist/Presbyterian circles it is known as The Sin Of Being Good. It is a twisted, insidious doctrine that the church has been polishing ever since the days of the Reformation. Believers are absolutely convinced that being "good" is a sin, and an affront to "God". You must be REALLY fucked up in the head to understand/believe this doctrine. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Wow, I didn't know it had a name. Thanks. I hate to admit it but I was "REALLY fucked up in the head" because I absolutely believed this. I really felt bad for these people that were being deceived (the helpers and those they were helping). Sure it seemed like were doing good but they were only helping the devil take away from Jesus. If you wanted to help people the right way you would accept Jesus, become a missionary and help in the name of Jesus. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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