Mike D Posted August 14, 2005 Share Posted August 14, 2005 The Bible says that those who reject Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day. So that started me wondering what qualifies as "rejecting" Jesus? Lets say I live somwhere in India where i've been born and raised a Hindu. And let's say i've heard of Christianity and know it is a religion, but I don't know anything about it or any of the details. All I know is that I am a Hindu and it's been a long standing revelation of truth for my family and culture for centuries, and I don't need anything else. Then one day I get the opportunity to take a trip to America with my school. It will be my first encounter with a culture outside of my own. On my first night in America we go to dinner down the street from our hotel. While walking back, a homeless crazy person standing on a corner is yelling that the end is near, and that Jesus is our only hope and unrepentant sinners will be sent to hell if we don't accept his salvation. He hands me a flyer and asks if I know who Jesus is and if I have been saved. I say no. He briefly explains to me who Jesus is and how he died for my sins, and asks me to bow down and pray to ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins and come into my heart. I politely say "no thank you", and explain that I am a Hindu and I am very happy with my own religion, and I feel no need to change. We continue on our way, and I forget the encounter, never to remember it again. So has this person "rejected" Jesus? He had the opportunity to repent of his sins and accept Jesus and he didn't. Is it fair to say because he will now experience God's wrath and fury on judgement day for rebelling against the truth, and be cast into the lake of fire with the wicked to be punished for eternity without any hope of redemption? Would it also be fair to say he chose to go to hell by his own free will? And, if this doesn't qualify as "rejecting" Jesus, then what does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JP1283 Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Yes, he has rejected Jesus. You see, he (assuming he has reached the Age of Accountability) heard "the truth" and had the opportunity to embrace it, but he chose not to. He is now hell-bound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest aexapo Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Yes, he has rejected Jesus. You see, he (assuming he has reached the Age of Accountability) heard "the truth" and had the opportunity to embrace it, but he chose not to. He is now hell-bound. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> The idea of "rejecting" Christ has a lot more psychodynamics than that. I believe that a lot of them actually believe that to "reject Christ" means that you had an intimate relationship with him (born again, spirit-filled, etc), and that you believed in him, and willingly rejected him: "I reject thee, Christ -- Light of the Morning!" And a lot of these people ACTUALLY believe this because they can't conceive of somebody disbelieving the Christian Way once they've experienced it. To them, the "way" is too marvelous, miraculous and spectacular to simply stop believing in -- so, these rebellious believers simply "denounce" something they still believe in. OR, these people "never really knew our Savior." Apparently, we were worshipping the false Christ, using the wrong worship style, the wrong baptismal formula, or had varying beliefs about WHEN the rapture was going to take place: which means if we didn't believe it their way, the we didn't "know the Lord." For them to actually believe that someone could cease understanding of the Christian Walk would be a threat to their internal brain-mapping -- it would allude that their "understanding of life" may not be as concrete and secure as they once believed, and I believe that THIS is the core reason people NEED superstitions -- to find security in the chaos of nature. A "separate understanding" isn't possible according to them: you either "never knew", or consciously rejected something you still believe in, or you were deluded by Satan. Knowing something other than their absolute truth is impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 Here are a few statements from Mahatma Gandhi, with the conclusions he came to. Gandhi was asked what he thought of Christianity and whether or not he had ever considered becoming a Christian. Gandhi: My association with Christians dates from 1889 and there was a time in my life when I sincerely considered Christianity as my religion. In my pursuit, I met many a scholars and thinkers, who while having a profound effect on me, were not able to convince me. Although I admire much in Christianity, I am unable to identify myself with the orthodox Christianity. I must tell you in all humility that Hinduism, as I know it, entirely satisfies my soul, and fills my whole being. The missionaries come to India thinking that they come to a land of heathen, of idolaters, of men who do not know God. My own experiences all over India have been on the contrary. An average Indian is as much a seeker after truth as the Christian missionaries are, possibly more so. Please do not flatter yourselves with the belief that a mere recital of that celebrated verse in St. John makes a man Christian. If I have read the Bible correctly, I know many men who have never known the name of Jesus Christ, men who have even rejected the official interpretations of Christianity, but would nevertheless, if Jesus came in our midst today in the flesh, be probably owned by him more than many of us. My position is that it does not matter what faith you practice, as long as the soul longs for truth. --------------------------- Gandhi: A man (Jesus Christ) who was completely innocent, offered himself as a sacrifice for the good of others, including his enemies, and became the ransom of the world. It was a perfect act. I consider myself a Hindu, Christian, Moslem, Jew, Buddhist, and Confucian. I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. If Christians would really live according to the teachings of Christ, as found in the Bible, all of India would be Christian today. Freedom and slavery are mental states. Almost anything you do will be insignificant, but it is very important that you do it. All business depends upon men fulfilling their responsibilities. There is nothing that wastes the body like worry, and one who has any faith in God should be ashamed to worry about anything whatsoever. --------------------------- According to Christian doctrine, Gandhi is in hell. Why? He could not identify with orthodox Christianity. The rejection of Christ speaks of an inability to identify with Christ or Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 My problem is which Jesus? There are so many versions. There's "sunday school, meek and mild Jesus" I find him a bit too wet. There's "Jesus the revolutionary" of liberation theology. He has some appeal! There's "Jesus is my boyfriend" of adolescent Christianity. Well I used to be in love with him, but it wore off. There's "Jesus the Conquering hero": "Onward Christian Soldiers! No thanks! There's Jesus my friend and brother. I quite like him. A sort of imaginary friend I can talk things over with. There's Jesus who died for me because I'm so bad. Now I have to spend my life paying him back for loving me so much. I've almost left that one behind! There's Jesus the heretic who told people no sacrifice was necessary for God to forgive them - only that they forgive others in the same generous and non-judgmental spirit. Or did I make him up? And many, many more. Being a good little fundamentalist I studied the Bible, and found out that Jesus was a First Century Jew, not a Christian at all. I studied Church History and discovered that just about evey "orthodox" Christian doctrine has been disputed by Christians at some time or another. So there have been and still are many versions of Christianity. Although I get the impression that most people on this board are reacting to American fundamentalism. Will the real Jesus please stand up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 The other day me and Jesus were on the court, and he went for what he thought was an easy layup......... I rejected him..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dio Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 The Bible says that those who reject Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Will we still be thrown into the lake of fire if we let him down easy, like "You know, it's not you, it's me. I'm just not ready for this kind of commitment". Maybe he won't feel so rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 15, 2005 Author Share Posted August 15, 2005 Although I get the impression that most people on this board are reacting to American fundamentalism. Yes. According to them we're all going to hell for rejecting Jesus. God will have no mercy on us for being skeptical that Jesus was a god, or even that he possibly never existed at all. And most American fundamentalists don't believe in the kinder gentler version of hell (i.e. seperation from God), they believe we're in for the literal lake of fire where physical torture abounds. Better get my fireproof suit ready Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fortunehooks Posted August 15, 2005 Share Posted August 15, 2005 The other day me and Jesus were on the court, and he went for what he thought was an easy layup......... I rejected him..... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> one of the best rejections of jesus i have had the pleasure of reading about. what it means to say no to jesus is this. you hear that he's the son of god. he died to save mankind, and rose from the dead. now he sits next to his father in heaven. after hearing or reading this, you still hold firm to unbelief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 So there have been and still are many versions of Christianity. Although I get the impression that most people on this board are reacting to American fundamentalism. It makes sense to me that most people on this board would be "reacting to" American fundamentalism as most people on this board are Americans, living in the USA and subject to the wide-ranging influence of this blight. One's reactions however, be they transient or stable, are not exactly the same thing as one's wholesale rejection of Christianity. I do think one's reactive tendency and outright rejection may dovetail here: with American fundamentalism, there is simply more to hate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
indoctrinated Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 It makes sense to me that most people on this board would be "reacting to" American fundamentalism as most people on this board are Americans, living in the USA and subject to the wide-ranging influence of this blight. One's reactions however, be they transient or stable, are not exactly the same thing as one's wholesale rejection of Christianity. I do think one's reactive tendency and outright rejection may dovetail here: with American fundamentalism, there is simply more to hate. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Oops! I hope I didn't offend anyone! I didn't mean that in any pejorative way. I didn't mean that it was a "mere" reaction with no rational basis. Nor was I seeking to have a go at Americans! I'm reacting myself to lots of Christian stuff. I am here for debate and ideas and mutual support but not to "defend" Christianity. It was partly a question. I assumed that most of the people on the board are American, but I wasn't sure where people are coming from. It was also saying that the hot issues for me, as a Brit, will possibly be different from those with a different background. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I hope I didn't offend anyone! I didn't mean that in any pejorative way. I didn't mean that it was a "mere" reaction with no rational basis. Nor was I seeking to have a go at Americans! No offense taken whatsoever. I was just joining in on the discussion. I am especially leery of western Christianity which I find produces Christians less like Jesus than what I see produced in other countries. The western crop of Christians is particularly materialistic, self-serving and shallow. I meant to welcome you, Indoctrinated! I hope the site will be able to provide you with some of what you are searching for. -Reach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 The Bible says that those who reject Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day. So that started me wondering what qualifies as "rejecting" Jesus? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> If do do not obey your pastor, you have rejected Jesus and are worthy of eternal suffering and pain Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abiyoyo Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 The Bible says that those who reject Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day. So that started me wondering what qualifies as "rejecting" Jesus? Lets say I live somwhere in India where i've been born and raised a Hindu. And let's say i've heard of Christianity and know it is a religion, but I don't know anything about it or any of the details. All I know is that I am a Hindu and it's been a long standing revelation of truth for my family and culture for centuries, and I don't need anything else. Then one day I get the opportunity to take a trip to America with my school. It will be my first encounter with a culture outside of my own. On my first night in America we go to dinner down the street from our hotel. While walking back, a homeless crazy person standing on a corner is yelling that the end is near, and that Jesus is our only hope and unrepentant sinners will be sent to hell if we don't accept his salvation. He hands me a flyer and asks if I know who Jesus is and if I have been saved. I say no. He briefly explains to me who Jesus is and how he died for my sins, and asks me to bow down and pray to ask Jesus to forgive me of my sins and come into my heart. I politely say "no thank you", and explain that I am a Hindu and I am very happy with my own religion, and I feel no need to change. We continue on our way, and I forget the encounter, never to remember it again. So has this person "rejected" Jesus? He had the opportunity to repent of his sins and accept Jesus and he didn't. Is it fair to say because he will now experience God's wrath and fury on judgement day for rebelling against the truth, and be cast into the lake of fire with the wicked to be punished for eternity without any hope of redemption? Would it also be fair to say he chose to go to hell by his own free will? And, if this doesn't qualify as "rejecting" Jesus, then what does? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> God only knows that answer. Think about it. If God is all that He is said through Jesus Christ, then limiting your theory to a Hindu example in this simple, and incomplete nature is also limiting God in Christianity to your own thoughts and mind. Why try to put your thoughts into the life of this Hindu person? If we are going by the rejecting of Christ, and the Christian Bible, then evaluate the situation from the whole aspect, not just by a mere finite thought or obsticule that is ultimately in Gods hands. Whether this man/woman is held accountable and experinces life after death without the Lords presence, is ultimately in Gods just and righteous, Judge's, hands. According to the scripture, Jesus said that He was not here to condemn or judge, but if He was, He would judge just and right. Jesus, not you or I. All in all here, this question really comes down to your personal questions and obsticules in Christianity in general. Thats OK. I have many questions that Im sure, as an active Christian, I will not understand until I am completed in full spirit by Gods presence. My personal opinion to the unsolved answers to this type of question. Jesus said that the Gospels would be preached to all nations. Jesus said to go out, heal the sick, cast out demons, etc. Some, I have witnessed, say that these things dont happen anymore. I try to listen and learn, while discerning, in all things, whether it be from the radio to someone standing on the road yelling at people. I have learned about many raising of the dead, healing of the sick, and more supernatural experiences happening in many countries, including India, by locals simply beliveing in Jesus. The wonderful part is that the missinaries, and evangelists, and travelers that walk and talk about Jesus at these places are not the vessels of these miracles. The locals are that believe the Gospels, and become followers of Christ. Jesus prayed, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Just because someone sees another proclaiming or denying something doesnt tell us that they are either heaven bound or hellbound. Only God is just enough to judge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trashy Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 I have learned about many raising of the dead, healing of the sick, and more supernatural experiences happening in many countries, including India, by locals simply beliveing in Jesus. The wonderful part is that the missinaries, and evangelists, and travelers that walk and talk about Jesus at these places are not the vessels of these miracles. The locals are that believe the Gospels, and become followers of Christ. TAP - you need to talk to this guy - he found miracles that you missed! And why is it that the only Christians who come to this site can't put together two back-to-back coherent sentences? (TAP being the exception) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 ...if this doesn't qualify as "rejecting" Jesus, then what does? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'd say that telling the world that you believe Jesus was a two-timing, peadophilic, devil-worshipping homosexual with delusions of godhood would qualify as rejecting Jesus... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 16, 2005 Share Posted August 16, 2005 The Bible says that those who reject Jesus will be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day. So that started me wondering what qualifies as "rejecting" Jesus? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mike, IMO, FWIW... my perspective is that the issue isn't rejecting Jesus so much... as rejecting the WAYS of Jesus as our own ways, or rejecting our inner 'Christ' in becoming the annointed one ourself. 'Holy' be thy name (Lord's prayer), also the name of Jesus. I think that one's religous label or cultural semantics are not what is important here. It probably goes much deeper than that to relate to our inner core of who we are, rejecting that 'Jesus' nature within us all puts us into the lake of fire. Further, it seems to me that the lake of fire (state of mind) just guides and develops us into eventually being in that annointed state. Perhaps it burns off our carnal nature (disrespect) and leaves us in an 'inner' place that is sacred, and it is the embracing of this nature (versus rejecting it) that keeps us away from the lake of fire, or the need of it? Reach, as of EVERY post I've read of yours... I glean a refreshing insight, and the post on here of Gandhi is internally gratifying wisdom! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 Why try to put your thoughts into the life of this Hindu person? If we are going by the rejecting of Christ, and the Christian Bible, then evaluate the situation from the whole aspect, not just by a mere finite thought or obsticule that is ultimately in Gods hands. I am not quite sure what this means, but the person doesn't have to be Hindu, they can be Buddahist, Muslim, pagan, agnostic, atheist, take your pick. My point is that whatever they are, if they aren't interested in Christianity or opening their heart to Jesus, then they've rejected Jesus. At least that's what I am trying to find out. Just because someone sees another proclaiming or denying something doesnt tell us that they are either heaven bound or hellbound. Only God is just enough to judge. It doesn't? Hmm, you might want to mention that to most of the preachers out there, because according to them anyone who rejects Jesus is bound for the fires of hell. And the reason they know that is because the Bible says so, and the Bible is God's Word. They're not judging us of course (nope they would never do that), they're just giving us the Good News that we're on our way to hell, but Jesus will save us if we let him into our hearts. As for raising the dead, that's nice that it happens in India so often. How come nobody in the US seems to be able to do that trick? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted August 17, 2005 Author Share Posted August 17, 2005 Mike, IMO, FWIW... my perspective is that the issue isn't rejecting Jesus so much... as rejecting the WAYS of Jesus as our own ways, or rejecting our inner 'Christ' in becoming the annointed one ourself. ' Aren't the ways of Jesus just basically being a nice person, helping the poor, feeding the homeless, etc? So are you saying that if I am a good person, but don't believe in Jesus then I am not really rejecting Jesus because I am trying to live like he would? Wasn't it Jesus who said that we should hate our family if we wanted to be one of his disciples? That seems to suggest a lot more than just not rejecting his ways.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 17, 2005 Share Posted August 17, 2005 Aren't the ways of Jesus just basically being a nice person, helping the poor, feeding the homeless, etc? So are you saying that if I am a good person, but don't believe in Jesus then I am not really rejecting Jesus because I am trying to live like he would? Wasn't it Jesus who said that we should hate our family if we wanted to be one of his disciples? That seems to suggest a lot more than just not rejecting his ways.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Mike, it is my understanding that Jesus did more than 'help' the poor, etc... It includes HOW and WHY one helps the poor, it is the art of developing an internal locus of control, is is to have an esteem for one's self and others without an inflated or deflated ego, it is about embracing peace... not complacency, it is to propogate accountability and responsibility with compassion and mercy found through grace, it is having internal peace... as that is WHERE one truly lives, it is about going within and finding one's self and then reaching into another person and connecting with them spiritually, it's about principles, it's about integrity, and much, much more.... Reading the verses which leads to the one Jesus says to 'hate one's family', I think it is referring to Jesus seeking disciples for his teachings. Let me ask you, how many of us all come from rather dysfunctional families? You know what, most of us don't even notice the dysfunction, because it is 'normal' to us. Back then I think it was worse, women were possessions in many cases, and their children were to have workers. Spoiling our family, to abusing our family. to codependency, to disrespect... amongst many other issues... Jesus is just saying to hate the ways of your family and follow him, let him teach them new ways... for a healthier system to come to be... and a healthier way to be and share with your family, community, and beyond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerise Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Without your families' ways, would they still be your family? Without your mannerisms, would you still be you? How are you seperating these things as if they were water to be strained from sand? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reach Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Reach, as of EVERY post I've read of yours... I glean a refreshing insight, and the post on here of Gandhi is internally gratifying wisdom! Thanks, Amanda. I think that Gandhi would have made a better Christian than most Christians I've seen in the western world. Among many other fine qualities, he was honorable and he was honest; I find very few members of that religious persuasion that can be defined in such a manner. Because he recognized that pride is a personal killing field, he embarked on a journey of humility and that's where far too many Christians, unwilling to embrace humility, stumble all over themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Without your families' ways, would they still be your family? Without your mannerisms, would you still be you? How are you seperating these things as if they were water to be strained from sand? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Cerise, I think there is a great attachment with those who are our family! It comes from being there for each other through these bad times, as well as the good. A deep love comes through these enduring alliances, creating secure attachments, regardless of our ways and mistakes. Many of us struggle to release many ideas that our family perpetrated onto us, that was perpetrated onto them, etc... with their good intentions, of course. Why can't we be free of such detrimental thinking, hate it, and still love these people immensely? It is said that the most powerful way we can teach our children is modeling... do we just keep modeling a dysfunctional lifestyle, or can we separate them from ourself and still love those that initiated them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 Thanks, Amanda. I think that Gandhi would have made a better Christian than most Christians I've seen in the western world. Among many other fine qualities, he was honorable and he was honest; I find very few members of that religious persuasion that can be defined in such a manner. Because he recognized that pride is a personal killing field, he embarked on a journey of humility and that's where far too many Christians, unwilling to embrace humility, stumble all over themselves. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Bump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted August 18, 2005 Share Posted August 18, 2005 TAP - you need to talk to this guy - he found miracles that you missed! And why is it that the only Christians who come to this site can't put together two back-to-back coherent sentences? (TAP being the exception) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> LOL.....Trashy...... Yo-Yo and I have spoken at length. "I have learned about many raising of the dead, healing of the sick, and more supernatural experiences happening in many countries, including India..." I would love to have really seen that and not just heard about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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