What constitutes "rejecting" Jesus?

[Merlinfmct87]

Will we still be thrown into the lake of fire if we let him down easy, like "You know, it's not you, it's me.  I'm just not ready for this kind of commitment".  Maybe he won't feel so rejected.

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I haven't read something that funny in days.

 

You rock, Dio!

 

Merlin

[Merlinfmct87]

LOL.....Trashy......

 

Yo-Yo and I have spoken at length.

 

"I have learned about many raising of the dead, healing of the sick, and more supernatural experiences happening in many countries, including India..."

I would love to have really seen that and not just heard about it.

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Maybe you can sue for false advertisement?

 

Worth a shot...

 

Merlin

[Cerise]

Cerise, I think there is a great attachment with those who are our family! It comes from being there for each other through these bad times, as well as the good. A deep love comes through these enduring alliances, creating secure attachments, regardless of our ways and mistakes.

 

Many of us struggle to release many ideas that our family perpetrated onto us, that was perpetrated onto them, etc... with their good intentions, of course.  Why can't we  be free of such detrimental thinking, hate it, and still love these people immensely? It is said that the most powerful way we can teach our children is modeling... do we just keep modeling a dysfunctional lifestyle, or can we separate them from ourself and still love those that initiated them?

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A lot fo words, and yet, none of them really an answer to my questions.

 

Code for "ask god", perhaps?

[Amanda]

A lot fo words, and yet, none of them really an answer to my questions.

 

Code for "ask god", perhaps? 

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Cerise, I thought your question was this in response to me suggesting that we are to hate these dysfunctional WAYS of our parents... then this was your question...

 

"Without your families' ways, would they still be your family?

 

Without your mannerisms, would you still be you?

 

How are you seperating these things as if they were water to be strained from sand?"

 

I apolgize Cerise for my lack of understanding here, yet why is that not an answer to your question? Could you please make your question more specific then? I have no idea in what you are referring to a code for "ask god".

[Cerise]

If you hate the dysfunctional WAYS of your parents, are you not still hating your parents?

 

A part of your parents, not the whole, to be sure, but still undeniably a part of them.

 

How can you seperate a person from all that they do, say, and are? What is left of them, when you strain out every part of them there is to hate?

 

It amounts to saying "I love you in spirit" to someone so you can avoid saying you hate them. But ultimately, it means nothing. You asked,

 

Why can't we be free of such detrimental thinking, hate it, and still love these people immensely?

 

If you hate a way a person thinks, the very mind of that person, what is left in them to love? Their body? Something that may or may not be a "soul"? Your own reflection of them?

 

How are you seperating these people from who they are?

[Mike D]

How can you seperate a person from all that they do, say, and are?  What is left of them, when you strain out every part of them there is to hate??

This reminds me of Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin ™. Yep, I am sure plenty of Christians hate the ways of the BTK killer but love him with all their hearts.

[Amethyst]

This reminds me of Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin ™. Yep, I am sure plenty of Christians hate the ways of the BTK killer but love him with all their hearts.

 

Yeah. It would be just as ridiculous to say to an African American person: "I love you, but I hate your skin color!" See how prejudiced that sounds? Christians do the exact same thing, but they don't realize it.

[Mike D]

Yeah.  It would be just as ridiculous to say to an African American person: "I love you, but I hate your skin color!"  See how prejudiced that sounds?  Christians do the exact same thing, but they don't realize it.

I always wonder what they say to a biologically transgenered person who is attracted to both sexes. It would probably take them awhile to actually figure out what sin they are committing to hate, so in the meantime they could just do what they always do...hate the person and call it a day

[Mike D]

Psalm 11

The LORD examines the righteous, but the wicked and those who love violence his soul hates.

I never noticed that verse before. I thought all sinners were wicked? So got hates everyone?

[Mike D]

Well, no, because if your washed in the blood of the lamb you can still be wicked but loved by god.  No wait, 1 John says you can't sin if you have the spirit.  No wait, Paul says you'll still struggle.  No wait, Peter says that false teachers will lead people into sin and they'll be worse off than if they hadn't know Christ at all.  No wait, Paul says we still have the flesh.  No wait, Jesus says to obey the law.  No wait, Paul says obeying the law makes you fall from grace.  No wait, James says faith without works is dead.  I'm confused!!  LOL

 

Man, I love this website

[Amanda]

Yeah.  It would be just as ridiculous to say to an African American person: "I love you, but I hate your skin color!"  See how prejudiced that sounds?  Christians do the exact same thing, but they don't realize it.

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Amethyst, would you mind explaining your analogy from person and their ways is the same thing as a person and their color? These are the same thing, Amethyst?

[Amethyst]

Amethyst, would you mind explaining your analogy from person and their ways is the same thing as a person and their color?  These are the same thing, Amethyst? 

 

Well, gay people are born gay, yet the bible says it's a sin. It's been scientifically proven to be a genetic factor, just like hair color or eye color or skin color, and yet fundie Christians like my idiot cube mate keep assuming they are sinning simply because a 2,000 year-old-book says so.

[TruthWarrior]

This reminds me of Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin .  Yep, I am sure plenty of Christians  hate the ways of the BTK killer but love him with all their hearts. 

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BTKs friend was on the Anderson Cooper news show saying that he still loves him. Here's the transcript:

 

COOPER: George, you've known Dennis Rader for over 20 years, your kids were Scouts together. You were both in the Scouts together. Do you feel like he tricked you?

 

GEORGE MARTIN, BTK KILLER'S FRIEND: No, I don't. There was a side of him that I didn't know, but the side of him that I knew, he was always straightforward and honest in that respect. So, I don't feel that he tricked me at all.

 

COOPER: But do you feel like you really knew who he was? I mean, all this time he was having these fantasies, these thoughts in his head and acting them out?

 

MARTIN: A lot of people have fantasies, especially in this younger year and boys, particularly, will have fantasies a lot of time. And what he was and is, is certainly world class, but -- as far as being very rare. But the side of Dennis I knew, is still there and I still respect that part of him.

 

COOPER: You still consider him your friend?

 

MARTIN: Yes, I do. I've -- we've exchanged letters two or three times since he's been in prison and...

 

COOPER: What do you say to him?

 

MARTIN: Just little things about the community and daily life, is what I write. I never have said anything about BTK to him at all.

 

COOPER: It doesn't sound like you're talking about the same guy that we've been listening to yesterday in court. I mean, the things he did, the things he thought about, the things he -- I mean, even the people -- when he wasn't murdering people, the fantasies that he was having that he kept documents in his home, the things he did on Cub Scout trips, maybe even when your son was there, are beyond the pale. I mean, they're just disgusting and shocking. It doesn't -- does that seem real to you? MARTIN: Like I say, what he did in the fantasy world is world class and it's going to rewrite a few textbooks.

 

COOPER: But George, I mean, help me understand this, because I'm not telling you how you should feel about Dennis Rader, but I'm interested to try to understand how you feel. I mean, if someone I knew for 20 years, who I had, you know, my child was around, went on camping trips together, if I found out that person, you know, was fantasizing about dismembering and raping women and children and in fact on Scouting trips had carried out some of these sick fantasies on himself, I would be outraged. Are you mad at Dennis Rader at all?

 

MARTIN: Not at all. I realize he has some problems that I wasn't aware of, but the first two points of the Scout law are: A Scout is trustworthy, a Scout is loyal. And Dennis is my friend and he will be until the day I die and he will...

 

COOPER: Do you think Dennis Rader is loyal and trustworthy? You think he is a good Scout?

 

MARTIN: We asked him to come to our Methodist men's group several months ago to talk about the suburban wildlife and he did that. He did a good job of that and he -- and everybody appreciated his and enjoyed his talks.

 

COOPER: That's like saying Hitler was a good dancer. I mean, if at a certain point, what does it matter if he gave a good speech to your friends or you know, was -- seemed like a nice guy when you were around him, if you know, in his off time he's murdering people and hanging himself?

 

MARTIN: I do not have to judge Dennis Rader. God will do that at the final judgment. But God says we're supposed to love our fellow man, and that love is there, that's constant.

 

COOPER: You spent time with him in the company of his children, you both -- you were all on Scouting missions together, on Scouting events. What was his interaction like with his kids, with other kids? Was he good with kids? MARTIN: Yeah, I think so. He's -- as a compliance officer, he is kind of half police officer. And there has to be a sternness in that role. But generally, he got along well with the kids.

 

COOPER: He taught them -- he taught them how to tie knots, I have heard, I have read from other people involved in Scouting with him, he taught all these kids how to tie all these different kinds of knots.

 

MARTIN: A lot of Scout leaders do that.

 

COOPER: Well, come on, you know the significance, is that in his offtime, he was using those knots to tie up and rape women and children. Does that -- I mean, does it -- as you look back now, do you see it in a different light?

 

MARTIN: No, not really. He didn't really impress me all that much. I remember that one of the press reports was that one of his victims got herself untied, and he had to fight quite hard with her. So at least one of his victims got untied. So that was an unsuccessful knot, in at least one case.

 

COOPER: Yeah. You sort of stunned me on that one, George, I've got to tell you.

 

Let me ask you, there are going to be some people who hear what you are saying tonight, and are kind of stunned. And it's one thing being a friend to someone and being loyal, being, you know, true to them and true to that friendship that you shared for 20 years. But I mean, have you read the accounts of what your friend, Dennis Rader, did to these women, to these children, to 11-year-old Josephine Otero, when he hung her and did unspeakable things to her? And when she asked him what -- where she was going to be in a few hours, he said, "you know, honey, you're going to be in heaven with your parents, with your family," because he had just murdered them? I mean, have you read the accounts of what this man did?

 

MARTIN: I didn't spend too much time reading the accounts. Probably he was -- Dennis was still in the fantasizing stage a little bit when he was arrested, and he was probably -- possibly making up some stuff, and certainly telling the most shocking part of it.

 

COOPER: Wait a minute, so you don't believe he did all this stuff? You don't believe that he hung an 11-year-old girl and did things in front of her while she was strangling to death?

 

MARTIN: Oh, there were several quotes that came across my mind initially. I think it was one from Shakespeare that says, "the evil that men do live long after them; the good is often turned with their bones." And anything good that Dennis did will be quickly forgotten. If you ask me, if I was his friend, I will be -- I am his friend and I will always be his friend.

[Amanda]

Well, gay people are born gay, yet the bible says it's a sin.  It's been scientifically proven to be a genetic factor, just like hair color or eye color or skin color, and yet fundie Christians like my idiot cube mate keep assuming they are sinning simply because a 2,000 year-old-book says so.

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Ahhhh, ok, I see where you're coming now.

 

Asserting that what I say is analogous to being a racist was a low blow to me, but now I see what you're saying... and take no offense. I am very much in the midst of multi-racial conditions, and would never offend anyone because of their color.

 

I also have Gay friends that are my best friends! Most deeply cherished friends, and I would NEVER offend a Gay person either! I know what you're saying about 'fundies' and their often times unfounded moral crusades, yet I don't think the NT says anything bad about being Gay. Really!

 

I personally think that a group of people have taken the truth of the Gospels hostage, and are asserting their own agenda instead. It seems Bishop Spong has a similar conclusion. As for Gays being embraced by Christian theology, there is a church devoted to it... can be accessed via the internet, called the Cathedral of Hope. I use to subscribe to it for at least a year!

[Mike D]

MARTIN: I do not have to judge Dennis Rader. God will do that at the final judgment. But God says we're supposed to love our fellow man, and that love is there, that's constant.

I wonder what the Christians in the courtroom (possibly his victims families) would have done if Dennis Radar stood up and said "remember everyone, love the sinner hate the sin". I am sure that would have gone over well

 

His friend sounds pretty demented himself. He makes it sound as though it's ok, they were fantasies

[Mike D]

As for Gays being embraced by Christian theology, there is a church devoted to it... can be accessed via the internet, called the Cathedral of Hope. I use to subscribe to it for at least a year!

Aside from these types of misc. "boutique" churches of Christianity, for the most part Christianity in general has totally alienated gays and demonized them as people. Just turn on any televangelist show, chances are no matter what the topic they'll manage to get in a word or two about them evil homersexuals. And I honestly think they don't much care.... as long as the perverts who are "living in sin" aren't in their church and near their kids, they couldn't be happier. Lots of gay people probably never had the chance to reject Jesus, he rejected them first.

[Amanda]

Aside from these types of misc. "boutique" churches of Christianity, for the most part Christianity in general has totally alienated gays and demonized them as people.  Just turn on any televangelist show, chances are no matter what the topic they'll manage to get in a word or two about them evil homersexuals. And I honestly think they don't much care.... as long as the perverts who are "living in sin" aren't in their church and near their kids, they couldn't be happier.  Lots of gay people probably never had the chance to reject Jesus, he rejected them first. 

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Mike, IMO, JESUS has NOT rejected them! As I've said, it seems that some people have taken the truth of the gospels hostage and perpetrated their own agendas instead! The teachings of Jesus are quite emphatic about refusing to be judgemental unto condemnation! How prideful! Much of hell, IMO, is a state of mind that comes from knocking someone down from their lofty opinions of themselves. ouch!

 

It seems the ONLY people Jesus really got upset with are the judgemental, condemning Pharisees... that seemed to enjoy their self elitist style of positioning themselves loftily in pride. It doesn't appear that the 'religous right' has changed much, has it? Of course, it says in the 'book' that if we judge them, then we are no better than they... so maybe we should bless them too, without condoning these actions, lest we allow them to effect our internal state of peace.

[Amethyst]

Hmmm...greedy...

 

I think that covers the vast majority of people in the world, don't you think?

[Mike D]

Mike, IMO, JESUS has NOT rejected them!

Well my point here is that Christians are speaking for Jesus. And they have to. Because........Jesus is 1.) invisible and 2.) doesn't have the required vocal cords to speak for himself.

 

Sure, someone could read the Bible themselves and see what Jesus allegedly said thousands of years ago, but we are told that Jesus spoke in parables which cannot be disciphered without the guidance of the holy spirit, which a person can't get unless they are first saved. So, for the unsaved person, they must depend on the holy spirit guided Christians to interpret "correctly" what Jesus said and speak for him.

 

This is why I find the Bible so absurd..... it doesn't say what it really says until someone is saved and guided to it's "true" meaning. Which in itself is ludicrous because logically at some point nobody was saved and had to read what the Bible says, which if course is not what it really says without the guidance of the holy spirit. In other words: "this sentence has no meaning, but do "x" to unlock the meaning".

[Mike D]

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

Achtung! Bible verses may or may not actually mean what they say!

 

Only with guidance from the holy spirit can you know the true meaning. Did he guide you to take it literally or did he tell you to throw out the whole thing and re-interpret it to mean something totally different?

[Amethyst]

Achtung! Bible verses may or may or not actually mean what they say!

 

Only with guidance from the holy spirit can you know the true meaning. Did he guide you to take it literally or did he tell you to throw out the whole thing and re-interpret it to mean something totally different?

 

Yes, we now need the holy spirit to tell us whether red lights are truly red, or if they are green, or whether the yellow light means we can speed up, because it may be Satan tempting us to think that the lights are another color entirely.

 

[Amanda]

Why are we even debating about this?  For goodness sake, in the Bible itself, black in white the bible DOES NOT ACCEPT HOMOSEXUALITY and of course, many mainstream fundies turn a blind eye to these other character flaws in which the sinner will not inherit the kingdom of heaven either. 

No one took the gospel hostage, the bible says so.

 

1 Corinthians 6

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

What did get hijacked was Judaism by Christianity.

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Hey Thankful, thanks for the info on how to get an avatar! Me, being quite computer illiterate, found it was much easier than I had thought. I do appreciate you taking the time to help me! You actually have taught me lots of things, even though we disagree on some other things.

 

It seems to me that the wicked, no matter what their 'lable', will not inherit the kingdom of God, as heaven is more or less a state of mind. “The kingdom of God is within you.” Do you think 'wickedness' brings internal peace and joyful repercussions, even if it is just the lack of compassion?

 

In this particular verse, the word wicked has as a meaning to deal fraudulently with others. The word ‘male prostitutes’ seems to be older boys providing sexual services to adults for an exchange of monetary value. These words 'homosexual offender’, in this verse, is one that uses a homosexual act to sexually assert their dominance over another male, the sense of power over another male is what is gratifying, hence ‘offender‘. Probably relating to the ones that capitalize on these boy prostitutes and why it follows it in context. In fact, the version I use, the KJV with Strong Numbers just refers to this as an abuser of mankind and does NOT use the word homosexuality. The key words here are ‘fraud’, 'abusers', and ‘offenders’ and NOT homosexuality. IMHO.

 

What got hijacked? First of all, the INTENT of these laws seems captivated, and instead the proliferation of the legalistic perspective with one‘s own spin, as it seems to be with many fanatics of the ‘religious right‘! Let the Spiritual aspects of a merciful heart guide us instead of the literal interpretation with one's own self-elitist, carnally inspired strategies to condemn, as God is Spirit of a soft heart that promotes edification, and he is not mere words on paper.

 

Again, it is my opinion that one must use the philosophy of Jesus in rationally understanding the MEANING AND THE PURPOSE of the law. The law can not be the law without a purpose. What the INTENT of the law/message is, THAT is what is important. The real world is NOT black and white, yet the words on paper may be. The Spiritual connotation of these words must come from the spirit of the heart. If we respect our self and others, then why would something be wrong? The meaning and purpose ALWAYS supercedes the letter/legalistic interpretation of the law! So now one would have to ask, what possible actions are there that disrespects another in being gay? That 'particular aspect' would be what is unlawful, not the sex act itself.

 

1Co 2:10

But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Co 14:26

How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.

Ro 7:6

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Ro 8:32

He that * * spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

1Co 6:12

All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Co 3:21

Therefore let no man glory in men. For all things are yours;

1Co 14:40

Let all things be done decently and in order.

 

Here's what the KJV says, with Strong Numbers, found at this site here, pertaining to this verse 9... Then one can research the reasoning of the meaning by how this meaning evolved to the English word used (remember that language was not as articulate back then as now)...

 

http://bible.crosswalk.com/OnlineStudyBibl...+Corinthisans+6

 

6:9

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

[Amanda]

Sure, someone could read the Bible themselves and see what Jesus allegedly said thousands of years ago, but we are told that Jesus spoke in parables which cannot be disciphered without the guidance of the holy spirit, which a person can't get unless they are first saved.  So, for the unsaved person, they must depend on the holy spirit guided Christians to interpret "correctly" what Jesus said and speak for him. 

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Mike, IMO, ALL ARE ALREADY SAVED! Jesus brought these principles, liberating us from the hell of guilt and condemnation into practice (among other things), so that we can more easily recognize the ability to do/use them to manifest heaven within us.

 

EVERYONE has the ability to KNOW/DISCERN what is the respectable action/thought to have, don't they? One doesn't NEED the Bible, perhaps it is just a tool to use. I think that the nature of having to search deep into Biblical understandings is part of its powerful transformational process working in us, as I think it probably is for all other Spiritual teachings as well. Many people seem to me to do just fine searching their own heart...

[Antlerman]

EVERYONE has the ability to KNOW/DISCERN what is the respectable action/thought to have, don't they? One doesn't NEED the Bible, perhaps it is just a tool to use. I think that the nature of having to search deep into Biblical understandings is part of its powerful transformational process working in us, as I think it probably is for all other Spiritual teachings as well. Many people seem to me to do just fine searching their own heart...

It's really refreshing to hear your unbothered approach to the Bible and your fluid belief in God. I think most people with religious backgrounds (myself included) have a hard time getting past viewing the Bible with black and white interpretations - or at the least attempting to interpret it "correctly". Evangelicals view it as accurate and true, and that mindset carries over to us ex'ers to say it is inaccurate and untrue. I've never found within myself the ability to just take it as a vehicle for spiritual pursuits, rather than understanding it as either true or untrue.

 

I know that for the vast majority of Christians, the stories of the Bible are not literal, but they speak to them spiritually. I know that intellectually, but I cannot practice that myself. I admire those who can be happy with something that they don't need to defend to themselves on an intellectual level, I think in part because it is ability I do not posses. In a probably very real sense, fundamentalists arguing that the Bible is infallible has done incredibly more harm that good.

 

I'm not going to argue how you interpret the Bible. I gather you see it as the act of interpreting as what's important, not what the words "really mean". What they mean to you is what's important. It's therefore pointless and irrelevant to argue against something whose meaning is purely subjective. True?

[Nicole Simon]

My problem is which Jesus? There are so many versions.

 

There's "sunday school, meek and mild Jesus" I find him a bit too wet.

 

There's "Jesus the revolutionary" of liberation theology. He has some appeal!

 

There's "Jesus is my boyfriend" of adolescent Christianity. Well I used to be in love with him, but it wore off.

 

There's "Jesus the Conquering hero": "Onward Christian Soldiers! No thanks!

 

There's Jesus my friend and brother. I quite like him. A sort of imaginary friend I can talk things over with.

 

There's Jesus who died for me because I'm so bad. Now I have to spend my life paying him back for loving me so much. I've almost left that one behind!

 

There's Jesus the heretic who told people no sacrifice was necessary for God to forgive them - only that they forgive others in the same generous and non-judgmental spirit. Or did I make him up?

 

And many, many more.

 

Being a good little fundamentalist I studied the Bible, and found out that Jesus was a First Century Jew, not a Christian at all.

 

I studied Church History and discovered that just about evey "orthodox" Christian doctrine has been disputed  by Christians at some time or another.

 

So there have been and still are many versions of Christianity. Although I get the impression that most people on this board are reacting to American fundamentalism.

 

Will the real Jesus please stand up?

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And then there's the 'Counting Crows' take on it . . .

 

She parks her car outside of my house takes her clothes off, says she's close to understanding Jesus. She knows she's more than just a little misunderstood she has trouble acting normal when she's nervous. Round here we're carving out our names Round here we all look the same Round here we talk just like lions but we sacrifice like lambs