Boy Scouts of America - should they be supported?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

"The Boy Scouts of America discriminates against gays and forces leaders to pledge that one can't be the 'best kind' of citizen without believing in God."

 

Without question the Boy Scouts of America organization does good things. However, it also openly discriminates against atheists and homosexuals. Does the good outweigh the bad, or is it immoral to support a group that discriminates based on religious beliefs and sexual orientation?

 

It's my opinion that they should not be supported. There are other scouting options that are not discriminatory and it appears the only way the BSA will change is to hit them where it hurts - in their membership (and therefore income) rolls.

 

If the BSA refused admittance to blacks or jews the nation would be in an uproar, and rightfully so. I don't see the difference in their discrimination against atheists and gays.

 

The article below give another example of the injustice being done by the Boy Scouts thru their immoral policies.

 

 

Boys Out in America

 

By Clint Hendler, MotherJones.com. Posted August 15, 2005.

 

In 1973, fresh out of college, Dennis St. Jean was hired by the Boy Scouts of America. He quickly worked his way up, serving in a variety of executive positions across the Northeast. In 1991 he was transferred to the BSA's headquarters in Irving, Texas, where, as Assistant Director of Professional Development, he taught management skills to thousands of employees across the country. Ten years later, St. Jean stepped down and moved to the Florida Keys to become General Manager of Sea Base in the Florida Keys. There, he and his seasonal staff of 2000 supervised the 11,000 Boy Scouts who came year-round to snorkel, scuba, and sail at one of scouting's three national high adventure programs.

 

But on January 28, 2005, according to St. Jean, he became the highest-ranking and longest-serving professional scouter in the history of the BSA to be fired merely for being gay. St. Jean had just successfully led Sea Base through a trying hurricane season when a representative from Irving came to Florida and presented him with the "evidence": a copy of his bill from Lighthouse Court Gay Guesthouses, where he had vacationed months before. (St. Jean believes the bill was obtained by a disgruntled Sea Base employee who had somehow found out about the trip.) Days later, a registered letter from Irving stated that the BSA had "lost confidence" in St. Jean's ability to serve as an employee. "I was like a deer in headlights," recalls St. Jean. "I was dumbfounded--I felt devastated, angry, hurt." The BSA's national spokesperson refused to comment on what he called a "personnel issue," but St. Jean, who says he had never received a professional evaluation that was less than glowing, can see no other explanation for why he was let go.

 

It is not at all clear exactly when the BSA started forbidding membership to gays and non-theists; for the first seven decades after the organization's 1910 founding the issue never came up in a public way. It wasn't until a series of court cases in the wake of a lawsuit filed by a California Scout--who was forced out after taking a boy to senior prom--that the BSA's membership policies became a legal issue.

 

The BSA's requires all of its approximately four million youth and adult members (who include about 4,000 employees) to meet its discriminatory membership standards, which were protected by the Supreme Court's 2000 ruling in Boy Scouts of America v. Dale. The 5 to 4 decision agreed with the BSA's claim that its membership policies were a form of speech legally known as "expressive association," and were thereby protected by the First Amendment. Since the decision the BSA has shown no sign of changing its mind, and that's angered many who, Like St. Jean, have otherwise felt that they had a home in scouting.

 

While the National Council's expenditures--$125 million in 2004--are privately funded, the organization has long benefited from a wide variety of in kind contributions and support from state, local, and federal governments. Dale triggered a battery of anti-discrimination lawsuits against the BSA, resulting in court decisions that restricted governmental support for the organization. The most important case yet decided involves the Boy Scout National Jamboree at Fort A.P. Hill--an Army base in Northern Virginia, which has hosted the event every four years since 1981--which closes its nine-day run tomorrow. An estimated 40,000 scouts and leaders from across the country will attend this year's summer camp-like gathering. The Department of Defense views the Jamboree as a unique opportunity to educate boys about careers in the military, and gives the military experience in setting up an event akin to running a refugee camp. The Pentagon expects to spend about $7.3 million on in-kind services in support of the Jamboree. This support accounts for about 80 percent of all federal funds directed to the Boy Scouts, according to Adam Schwartz, an attorney for the ACLU. But this spring, a Federal District Court judge for Northern Illinois declared the BSA a religious institution, and hence ruled that the military funds violated the Establishment Clause--which limits government support for organized religion.

 

To fight its many legal and public relations battles, the BSA is relying on support from a long roster of conservative and religious organizations, who see the Scouts as just another front in the ongoing culture wars to preserve what they, and the BSA, call "traditional values." Robert Bork Jr.--a former fellow at the conservative Heritage Foundation, and the son of Ronald Reagan's failed Supreme Court nominee--has been hired to coordinate public relations for the scouts; his campaign's centerpiece website recommends related articles from The Weekly Standard and Citizen, the magazine of James Dobson's Focus on the Family. The Federalist Society, the foremost legal think tank of the right, recently hosted a panel on the BSA's struggles, featuring Ken Starr. Scout Councils in Florida and Georgia have held fundraisers that have featured conservative celebrities Ann Coulter and Oliver North.

 

Mark Noel, a leader in the Coalition for Inclusive Scouting, a national network of activists working to reform the BSA's exclusive policies, thinks that liberal parents and scouts have been "voting with their feet," deciding that Scouting is no longer appropriate for their family after hearing about the discriminatory polices at issue in the lawsuits. Indeed, since Dale, Boy Scout rolls have dropped 3.8 percent. Cub Scout numbers have dropped by a staggering 13.8 percent--a decrease that likely foreshadows a similar drop among older Scouts in a few years time. But the reduced public support has perhaps had a more direct effect: One Portland BSA employee attributed a 10 percent drop in his Council's enrollment after the city forbid recruitment during school hours. Meanwhile, with corporate sponsors and local United Way affiliates cutting funds to BSA Councils, hiring has slowed. According to St. Jean, the BSA calculates that each new professional scouter usually recruits about 1,500 new boys.

 

The BSA, for its part, insists that the decline is unrelated to the fallout from its membership policies, instead pointing to changing age demographics and a general decrease in interest in scouting-related activities. But the population of eligible boys has held steady, and the Girl Scouts--a similar yet separate organization that does not discriminate on the basis of religion or sexual orientation--has continued to grow.

 

No matter the exact cause, however, the drop in enrollment is increasing the influence of those within the organization who support BSA's discriminatory rules. Internal efforts to reform membership policies have been thwarted by the BSA's Religious Relations Committee, which has long been dominated by representatives of conservative churches. (The Mormon Church, whose adherents are about 2 percent of the general population but account for about 13 percent of BSA membership, is usually described as the chief impediment.)

 

But reform efforts are unlikely to get far as long as the scouts continue to stifle dissent. New leaders are required to sign a pledge stating that they believe that someone cannot be the "best kind" of citizen without believing in God. Activists report that the BSA maintains a "litmus test" and refuses to promote any professional who disagrees with the policy.

 

Noel, concerned about the future of Scouting, points to polls that show younger Americans to be more tolerant than previous generations; these future parents will soon decide whether or not to encourage their sons to join. And he worries that Scouting, which used to respect the values of a broader swath of Americans, will have made up their minds for them.

 

It's been more than six months since St. Jean was fired. So far, his efforts to reach an out-of-court financial settlement with the BSA for wrongful termination have been unsuccessful; he soon plans to file suit against the organization, under a Monroe County, Florida, ordinance prohibiting employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation, and has retained an out-of-state lawyer who previously obtained a settlement for another gay client fired by the BSA.

 

He's been unemployed since his firing. With his seniority stripped away, the new job he'll soon start will pay about half what he earned at Sea Base. And it will not be with the organization he joined as an eight year old cub scout and "never left"--that is, until they kicked him out.

[Checkmate]

So...the BSA is an indoctrination center and a recruiting pool for the military and the religious conservatives? Well, THAT explains a lot! Glad I read this article. Now I have a very good reason to keep my kids from joining the Boy Scouts.

 

This fear of homosexuals molesting boys is a bullshit excuse. More boys are molested by Catholic priests. And I don't see anyone firing these fuckers.

 

Truth be told, children are more at risk from heterosexuals than from homsexuals.

 

Fuck, but I'm tired of the lies. When will these bigoted people and their ideas fucking die and leave us alone?

[Asimov]

My Grandmas been a part of the Girl Scouts for a long long time, but in Canada, but I don't know how things are done up here. I never really got into it. I thought that it was illegal for an employer to discriminate against someone based on their age, sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, creed, culture, or colour....When my family moved to Florida for a year, and were getting set up at an apartment, I read this plaque that said it was illegal...

 

I dunno....

[Amethyst]

There are secular-based youth groups that don't discriminate. And if you don't like any of them, you can always start your own.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Folks should speak out against bigotry. I veto the BSA. I would never support them.

 

Amerikkka sux ass. I'm leaving as soon as I can.

[Totallyatpeace]

Never mind......

[♦ nivek ♦]

Folks should speak out against bigotry. I veto the BSA. I would never support them.

 

Amerikkka sux ass. I'm leaving as soon as I can. (bold mine)

 

d_c...

 

Why wait..?

 

kL

[dogmatically_challenged]

d_c...

 

Why wait..?

 

kL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Cause I'm gonna finnish my education first. I never asked to be born, but here I am. Amerikka is against birth control so the government owes me an education before I leave. hehe.

[♦ nivek ♦]

yooooookkkay d_c...

 

That sense of entitlement will go a long, long, long assed way to enrich your life..

 

kL

[dogmatically_challenged]

yooooookkkay d_c...

 

That sense of entitlement will go a long, long, long assed way to enrich your life..

 

kL

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well. Maybe I'll rethink things. But I still disaprove of most americans and what they believe in. The Constitution and Bill of Rights is what I value and if people don't appreciate a Bill of rights Canada seems a better place to live.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

My Grandmas been a part of the Girl Scouts for a long long time, but in Canada, but I don't know how things are done up here.  I never really got into it.  I thought that it was illegal for an employer to discriminate against someone based on their age, sex, sexual orientation, race, religion, creed, culture, or colour....When my family moved to Florida for a year, and were getting set up at an apartment, I read this plaque that said it was illegal...

 

I dunno....

The Girl Scouts of America is a separate organization from the BSA, and the Girl Scouts don't discriminate against atheists or homosexuals. Too bad the boys can't learn from the girls.

[dogmatically_challenged]

nivek. Maybe I'll stay and encourage people to value others and thier rights to live and breathe as they are.

[Guest aexapo]

The BSA is LARGELY supported by such charitable clearing houses such as the United Way, and since United Way gives tons of cash to BSA and the Salvation Army (a Christian church, for those not in the know) -- I refuse to participate in their fund raising.

[Onyx]

We must protest injustice whenever we see it!

Time's too far to be gone to waste our freedoms any further.

We may be ridculed but we must go on. We'll get the last laugh sometimes into the future.

[BlueGiant]

Never was a scout, most of the ones in my grade growing up were assholes, despite that I have some family ties to them, as well as a rather intersting relationship through my fraternity (Alpha Chi Sigma, it's professional chemistry). I've seen some good in the BSA, however misguided many of the policies are, and I take a mend them don't end them view.

 

Most of the current policies on homosexuality date to the 1970's and were a knee jerk reaction to a suit that nearly ended the BSA, due to a child porn ring that was using a scout chapter as a front. I figure most of the leadership remembers this, and whether or not gays are more likely to do the whole kiddie-touching thing (they aren't statistically), it is the perception that matters. Unfortunately, that hasn't changed yet. As long as the leadership and the membership tends towards the neocon (and with guys like people on this board shouting how they leave/will not help/etc. this will not change. All the good people leave and what do you have left?) the policies will not change. I am not sure when the atheist witch hunt happened.

 

As far as the relation between AXE (no sigma, so I'll abbreviate this way), and the Scouts, in short, the chem badge book was written by us, and the organization I am a part of is kind of needed to help troops get that badge (the requirements are actually pretty tough for middle-schoolers and hs-ers). It doesn't help that as an org, we are obligated to help as a part of chemistry outreach efforts (longer story there). Not sure when this relationship began, but it appears to go back more than a few decades. Despite the BSA leadership apparently hating me, I am willing to help the kids in the program, and many of the leaders. A good deal are decent people who either don't care about the policy or are trying to change it themselves. It'll take time, though.

 

What happens when all the good people leave?

[dead_hobbit]

I choose option #5: Support the Boy Scouts and support reform within the organization.

 

Eventually, they'll (probably) change their policies. If not, we can find alternatives. 4H, for example, but I don't know if they have a lot of stuff for young boys. The FFA is also another good example (for both sexes).

 

That being said, as a Libertarian, while I am completely opposed to the discrimination that homosexuals face, I am opposed to making BSA's policies for them. If they don't want homosexuals in their organization, they shouldn't have to let them in. Similarly, if a webmaster doesn't want someone on his/her website, he/she shouldn't have to let them post on it.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I choose option #5: Support the Boy Scouts and support reform within the organization.

 

Eventually, they'll (probably) change their policies. If not, we can find alternatives. 4H, for example, but I don't know if they have a lot of stuff for young boys. The FFA is also another good example (for both sexes).

 

That being said, as a Libertarian, while I am completely opposed to the discrimination that homosexuals face, I am opposed to making BSA's policies for them. If they don't want homosexuals in their organization, they shouldn't have to let them in. Similarly, if a webmaster doesn't want someone on his/her website, he/she shouldn't have to let them post on it.

Scouting for All is one alternative.

 

I agree that we should not be making BSA's policies for them. However, moral people do have a responsibility to vote with their feet (and dollars) against this blatent discrimination, IMHO.

[fallenleaf]

Dammit, I had a long winded reply all written out and managed to close the window and lose it. Maybe I'll write it all again after I get out of work tonight but here's my deal for now.

 

1) I believe that scouts can be whatever type of asshole they want.

2) I believe that I don't and won't support them because of their actions.

3) I believe that people who do support the actions of the BSA should be able to support them in whatever way they want... it's not my call to claim that anyone but myself should or should not support the BSA. I can not make a moral judgement on those people who would support the BSA.

4) I believe what was done to the man in the article was a horrible wrong and that the BSA should compensate him for the situation they put him in. Like any company would have to pay unemployment for firing a person without cause. But that the BSA does not need to provide him a job if they don't want.

 

Yeah, they're assholes. I had a big response where I compared them to even bigger assholes but, like I said, it's gone now.

[Heimdall]

I say let those that believe that way support the BSA and those that don't, keep your kids away from them. The BSA seems to be declining (could be a tie in with the slow decline of the Christ Cult), so in a few decades, it might be a moot point.

 

Cause I'm gonna finnish my education first. I never asked to be born, but here I am. Amerikka is against birth control so the government owes me an education before I leave. hehe.

DC, I am sticking my neck out but I am going to tell you the same thing I told almost the entire forum when I came back (and got my head handed to me) - QUITCHERBITCHIN'! If all you can do is bitch, then you are useless to all mankind, if you see something wrong then work to correct it and quitcherbitching! - Heimdall

[spamandham]

This was a tough one for me since I have been involved in scouting in the past, but after reading the other responses, I think I have to conclude I should not support something that discriminates against people for their thoughts, nor for consentual behavior among adults.

 

On the other hand..., I think there is a good deal of ignoring the official position at the troop level. While the official positions may be discriminatory, from my personal experience, the individual troops are not generally. I attended a leader forum onetime when a woman aksed what the requirement to believe in god meant, and was told "whatever you want it to mean". She went on to discuss here Wiccan beliefs and no-one expressed any problem with that.

 

So then, I won't support the BSA, even if I continue to possibly support individual troops I've been active in that I know are not following the discriminatory policies. This isn't much different than my previous position anyway. I had stopped supporting the BSA due to its corruption.

[fallenleaf]

FUCK IT!

 

I was just about done writing my whole rant about this again. 45 minutes into it... didn't bother to save the file (it's a text editor this time) because I was just going to drag it over when done. My cat lays on the power strip by my feet and kills the computer. I'm not writing it again. Here's the basic outline:

 

I was both a scout and a royal ranger. The scout before the ranger. Both have an agenda. Neither make much attempt to hide it... let's compare.

 

Purpose of the Boy Scouts of America

 

It is the purpose of the Boy Scouts of America to provide an effective program designed to instill within youth desirable qualities of character, to train them in the responsibilities of participating citizenship, and to help develop their personal fitness, providing this country with citizens who:

1. Are physically, mentally, and emotionally fit.

2. Have a high degree of self-reliance as evidenced in such qualities as initiative, courage and resourcefulness.

3. Have personal and stable values firmly based on religious concepts.

4. Have a desire and the skills to help others.

5. Understand the principles of the American social, economic, and governmental systems.

6. Are knowledgeable about and take pride in their American heritage and understand America's role in the world.

7. Have a keen respect for the basic rights of all people.

8. Are prepared to fulfill the varied responsibilities of participating in and giving leadership to American society and in other forums of the world.

 

Purpose of the Royal Rangers Ministry

 

  1. To evangelize boys for Christ

 

  2. To develop the total boy for Christ (spiritually, physically, mentally and socially)

 

  3. To keep boys in our churches

 

Our Aim and Goals for Royal Rangers

 

To instruct, challenge and inspire our boys in the areas of Bible doctrine, Christian service, moral conduct and basic beliefs of our church through interesting activities boys enjoy.

 

Our Goals

 

  1. To instruct in Bible Doctrine. When a boy participates in Royal Rangers, he should have a basic knowledge of what the Bible teaches.

 

  2. To challenge for Christian service. When a boy completes this program he should be ready to take his place in the area of Christian service where God wants him to be

 

  3. To inspire a belief in the fundamental beliefs of our church. When a boy completes this program he should be Christian in belief for the remainder of his life.

 

  4. To satisfy the boy's basic need for activity. A boy engaged in this program should have enough interesting activities to do to prevent him from being tempted to engage in unwholesome activities.

 

Unwholesome activities, of course means jerking it... and other sexual stuff. If you wish to know what the fundamental beliefs of the church are here's a good place to start: http://ag.org/top/beliefs/position_papers/index.cfm

 

Basically, they're both evil... but having experienced both (and risen to an assistant commander in the latter) I rather appreciate the fact that the BSA is more "liberal" is is more apt to change over time to become even more in line with logical thought.

 

[Don't bitch about how lame this post is. The original included tons of anecdotes... and a detailed breakdown and comparison between both these groups. It's your job to do that on your own now. I've given you some help by highlighting the areas which are of special concern.]

[dead_hobbit]

Scouting for All is one alternative.

 

I agree that we should not be making BSA's policies for them.  However, moral people do have a responsibility to vote with their feet (and dollars) against this blatent discrimination, IMHO.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you mean voting against government funding for them (and abstaining from any donations to the guys who control their policies until they fix em)?

 

If so, I agree.

 

But, I don't see anything wrong with helping out local chapters. When I was a Scout, none of us (except one, who was just a jackass to everyone) were homophobes. We didn't care if a person was gay or straight (so long as they didn't try to hit on us, lol).

 

Of course, a bunch of us were (and still are) Libertarians too

[dogmatically_challenged]

Dammit, I had a long winded reply all written out and managed to close the window and lose it.  Maybe I'll write it all again after I get out of work tonight but here's my deal for now.

 

1) I believe that scouts can be whatever type of asshole they want.

2) I believe that I don't and won't support them because of their actions.

3) I believe that people who do support the actions of the BSA should be able to support them in whatever way they want... it's not my call to claim that anyone but myself should or should not support the BSA.  I can not make a moral judgement on those people who would support the BSA.

4) I believe what was done to the man in the article was a horrible wrong and that the BSA should compensate him for the situation they put him in.  Like any company would have to pay unemployment for firing a person without cause.  But that the BSA does not need to provide him a job if they don't want.

 

Yeah, they're assholes.  I had a big response where I compared them to even bigger assholes but, like I said, it's gone now.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I have less faith in laws to uphold morality than my own ability to change peoples minds about what is moral and what is not and what they should support and not support. Changing minds is a stronger foundation than trying to coerce people in being good people than through laws. Laws should be in place to protect us from eachother and allow us to be free. Yea, even nazis should be allowed to choose who can be in thier club. BSA is a club and they should be able to choose who is allowed in thier club. I will still try to convince people that BSA should not be supported until they stop being bigots. That is my right and duty as a caring individual. As a citizen.

[fallenleaf]

Amerikkka sux ass. I'm leaving as soon as I can.

 

That is my right and duty as a caring individual. As a citizen.

 

This amount of dissociation could only be the result of a public school education.

 

[dogmatically_challenged]

This amount of dissociation could only be the result of a public school education.

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That is what frustration does to me. hehe. I can't make up my mind what to do.

 

Sometimes I just feel so jaded, that leaving sounds very good at times.

 

To me many Amerikkkans suck ass. Not all though.

 

BTW I'm in college not HS.