Exchanging ideas

[kevin]

It's great discussing christianity with believers, but I soon realise that both of us haven't the slightest idea what we are talking about. It develops into an *argument* where egos get involved, and the whole purpose of exchanging ideas is lost. So why do I do it then? Leaving christianity has been like waking up from a dream, and realising it was just a dream. It sounds self righteous, but I want to wake christians up from their dream. The only way I think I can do this is through love. The thing that christians are supposed to give freely to us. Even someone like Goldie, if he calmed down a bit I'm sure would have been interesting to talk to. OK bad example, but do you see what I'm saying? What are your thoughts on this?

 

Kevin:

[Eudaimonist]

You can't convince christians to become atheists, only god ca... I mean, only Reason can. And that requires that they reason and be willing to be honest with themselves. Maybe it's a matter of the timing in a christian's life, and you should learn when the timing is just not right. For some christians, the timing might never be right, and you may simply have to accept that. I recommend that you not be too attached to the idea of converting others.

 

Good luck, though!

[Asimov]

It sounds self righteous, but I want to wake christians up from their dream. The only way I think I can do this is through love. The thing that christians are supposed to give freely to us. Even someone like Goldie, if he calmed down a bit I'm sure would have been interesting to talk to. OK bad example, but do you see what I'm saying? What are your thoughts on this?             

 

 

Let me try and coherize my jumbled thoughts as I'm kinda tired and don't know what I'm sayin right now...

 

Ok...

 

Neo's woken up from the Matrix and now he wants to liberate everyone from it. George Bush is calling for the liberation of iRaq. All that...not that I'm comparing you to GB, or Neo. But it's the same kind of situation.

 

The US mentality that because we're liberated the rest of the world must want it to needs to stop. People who want to be liberated will be liberated, people who aren't ready for it, or don't want it, wont. You can't provide freedom of thought, or liberty to people.

 

It's a wasted effort to try and get people to "wake up" from the dream you have woken up from. The only people you will take with you are the ones who think the same as you and who would have done it themselves had you not come along.

[pitchu]

Kevin,

The people who've ever told me that something I said had a profound influence on them inevitably quote something I have absolutely no memory of ever having said, and no understanding of why my statement connected with them in an important way.

 

In my experience, what works is rarely the intentional attempt at getting something across -- it's the combination of elements totally outside the control of the would-be converter.

 

But, imo, there's never a bad time or wrong reason for dispensing love.

[Skankboy]

I certainly appreciate your sentiment Kevin!

 

There's an eastern concept I've come to observe: "You cannot teach someone who doesn't want to learn."

 

No one can really change another person's mind. That person needs to be open to the change or else they're just going to filter all oppossing view out as a matter of course. The only thing you can do is show by example, and with the occassional intellectual jab, other alternatives. The rest will happen when they are ready for it...

 

IMOHO,

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Kevin,

 

I agree that love manifested as patience, civility, open-mindedness, a willingness to truly listen, etc., are the ways to reach others. That's coupled with really "knowing your stuff" - being prepared to give solid answers to questions and to provoke thought in others.

 

Finally, true humility is also necessary. Both sides must be open to listen and learn from the other. It's no good, IMHO, going into a discussion about religion if you are completely convinced that you know everything and can't be wrong about anything. That's true no matter which side you're on. Few adults are willing to be talked to as children, but many are open to mutual discovery.

[kevin]

Kevin, I am so happy for you that you woke up from the dream.  Just remember how it was that you became an ExC.  Was it anything or any people in particular that caused you to rethink Christianity.  If so, was it a harsh reality or a gentle guidance?  Just by being here and voicing your opinion is worth something and maybe something you say will benefit someone else who is struggling with what you used to.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I am thankful, but a part of me wants to go back to sleep so I can dream again!

Since it's only been a few weeks since leaving C, I can hop back to my C way of thinking anytime I want to. It's quite funny what we will accept if we so chose to believe it. I see now that the bible is the only thing that C's have to cling to, so I don't want to bash them over the head with it.

 

Kevin:

[Alice]

But, imo, there's never a bad time or wrong reason for dispensing love.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That's such a beautiful pearl.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Kevin,

 

 

Quite a long time ago I tried to quit discussing *religion* with folks.

 

Over the past few years, say 15-odd, the uS Republican Party, which i served with a righteous fevor, has turned into an arm of the neo-religiousRight.

 

Discusions of politics, Rights, "The way things oughta be", always turn into arguments over the way things are gonna be "run".

 

Religious Rightests (RR's) dealing with their particular bent will always try and theologize any discussion.

Republican party has been inflitrated and taken over for most part by folks with narrow minds and little brains.

 

I have gotten to point now as an anrchist/libertarian to avoid talking about shit to anyone I don't know well due to the "Praise God" syndrome...

 

(Old Man said years ago "You love to talk so you can hear head rattle" He was right)

 

I pick what I say to folks carefully as I don't want to waste my precious time, and in return garner nothing from expending mental capital on folks whose minds are made up.

 

The only hope I have is that somewhere in a conversation with an RR that something I've said or pointed out might shed some light into a crack that the ideas and ideals exploited.

 

Long past trying to jackhammer someone into submission.. That was back when the fundie was fullest.

 

Not again, no thanks..

 

Good convo, good friends, good times..

 

kL

[kevin]

But, imo, there's never a bad time or wrong reason for dispensing love.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

You are one of the people who did have an affect on me Pitchu. Skankboy, TF, Mr Neil, Bob, Chef, Reach and Webmaster also come to mind, along with a few others here.

 

K

[Eponymic]

Kevin,

 

I agree that love manifested as patience, civility, open-mindedness, a willingness to truly listen, etc., are the ways to reach others.  That's coupled with really "knowing your stuff" - being prepared to give solid answers to questions and to provoke thought in others.

 

Finally, true humility is also necessary.  Both sides must be open to listen and learn from the other.  It's no good, IMHO, going into a discussion about religion if you are completely convinced that you know everything and can't be wrong about anything.  That's true no matter which side you're on.  Few adults are willing to be talked to as children, but many are open to mutual discovery.

 

I'm very much in agreement with you here Tex. Especially with being patient. It takes a long time for people to develop the will to be open enough to finally breakout of a given behavior, especially something as deeply ingrained as Christianity is with most people.

[Skankboy]

You are one of the people who did have an affect on me Pitchu. Skankboy, TF, Mr Neil, Bob, Chef, Reach and Webmaster also come to mind, along with a few others here.

 

 

Thank you Kevin, I am truly flattered to be included amongst such company...

 

[Vigile]

In my experience, what works is rarely the intentional attempt at getting something across -- it's the combination of elements totally outside the control of the would-be converter.

 

Or we could kidnap them, lock them in a bright shiny room, put them on a high fructose, low carb diet and beam in Bertrand Russel quotes at full volume until they are slobbering and ready to recant.

 

Ok, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

[MrSpooky]

Study a little philosophy to refine your thoughts. Learn from the mistakes of your previous discussions. Things will only become clearer and clearer as time goes on.

[pitchu]

Or we could kidnap them, lock them in a bright shiny room, put them on a high fructose, low carb diet and beam in Bertrand Russel quotes at full volume until they are slobbering and ready to recant. 

 

Ok, I'm kidding, I'm kidding.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ah!

 

Finally, the equally-flip flip-side of "There are no atheists in a foxhole."

 

***************************************

 

Hesitent,

Thanks.

 

***************************************

 

Kevin,

 

Like Skankboy, I'm honored to be on that list.

 

(It might be enlightening to all of us at Ex-C to know what kinds of statements/attitudes delivered here either positively or negatively influenced your deconversion. )

[dogmatically_challenged]

It's great discussing christianity with believers, but I soon realise that both of us haven't the slightest idea what we are talking about. It develops into an *argument* where egos get involved, and the whole purpose of exchanging ideas is lost. So why do I do it then? Leaving christianity has been like waking up from a dream, and realising it was just a dream. It sounds self righteous, but I want to wake christians up from their dream. The only way I think I can do this is through love. The thing that christians are supposed to give freely to us. Even someone like Goldie, if he calmed down a bit I'm sure would have been interesting to talk to. OK bad example, but do you see what I'm saying? What are your thoughts on this?             

 

Kevin:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think being exposed to all different kinds of personality types can help in waking xers up. I really think that different personalities make the world go round.

 

I really can't disagree with everything you have said here.

[kevin]

(It might be enlightening to all of us at Ex-C to know what kinds of statements/attitudes delivered here either positively or negatively influenced your deconversion. )

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I remember someone here asking me why I had chosen the christian god, and not one from another religion. It was like a Tyson punch, and I had no answer to give. I am not an academic, so long winded replies tend to leave me scratching my armpits. Just a simple sentence is usually all I need to get me thinking, and most of them have come from Chef. He is the one person who has affected me most here. I hated him instantly, because I saw him as the biggest threat to my *sanity*. I tried leaving here a few times, but found it was the only place where there was any real honesty. I remember thinking "Some of these people are really kind, but they don't believe in god. Why don't they feel gulity?"

 

Kevin:

[pitchu]

I remember someone here asking me why I had chosen the christian god, and not one from another religion. It was like a Tyson punch, and I had no answer to give. I am not an academic, so long winded replies tend to leave me scratching my armpits. Just a simple sentence is usually all I need to get me thinking, and most of them have come from Chef. He is the one person who has affected me most here. I hated him instantly, because I saw him as the biggest threat to my *sanity*. I tried leaving here a few times, but found it was the only place where there was any real honesty. I remember thinking "Some of these people are really kind, but they don't believe in god. Why don't they feel gulity?" Kevin:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Wow.

 

This is really good to know, Kevin. Especially that last sentence.

 

And why am I not surprised that it's darlin' Chef who really got to you?

[bob]

It's great discussing christianity with believers, but I soon realise that both of us haven't the slightest idea what we are talking about. It develops into an *argument* where egos get involved, and the whole purpose of exchanging ideas is lost. So why do I do it then? Leaving christianity has been like waking up from a dream, and realising it was just a dream. It sounds self righteous, but I want to wake christians up from their dream. The only way I think I can do this is through love. The thing that christians are supposed to give freely to us. Even someone like Goldie, if he calmed down a bit I'm sure would have been interesting to talk to. OK bad example, but do you see what I'm saying? What are your thoughts on this?             

 

Kevin

Kevin, I think I do agree with you. When I left the faith, I wanted to tell others about it, but there was very few for me to tell. I knew that if I told my friends and family, there would be little positive accomplished.

So, I found this forum and several christian forums so I could express what was dieing to get out of me.

I have come to realize that there is no convincing believers to get out while the get'n is good. No one would have been able to convince me when I was a believer. It was a slow process of erosion for me.

You know Kevin, I don't think I would get any satisfaction at all if someone came to me and told me that, due to something I said, they left the faith. I would probably be kind of sad. I have no desire to burst anyone's bubble. All I ever wanted to do, when I would visit christian forums and debate, was to try to convince believers to think for themselves, instead of simply believing.

[Eponymic]

I have no desire to burst anyone's bubble.  All I ever wanted to do, when I would visit christian forums and debate, was to try to convince believers to think for themselves, instead of simply believing.

 

Thinking for themselves is certainly the first thing you have to teach a believer. They have to want to be unbrainwashed before you can impart any logical information to them.

[kevin]

You know Kevin, I don't think I would get any satisfaction at all if someone came to me and told me that, due to something I said, they left the faith.  I would probably be kind of sad.  I have no desire to burst anyone's bubble.  All I ever wanted to do, when I would visit christian forums and debate, was to try to convince believers to think for themselves, instead of simply believing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

You are also one of those who made an impression on me Bob. Your non-aggressive approach is so special, and you speak from your heart. Don't be sad that you may have contributed in bursting my bubble. It was just waiting to be popped!

Kevin:

[pitchu]

I guess I couldn't be sad if someone told me something I'd said had caused them to leave the faith because I would see it not as losing faith but as gaining reason. I'm always glad when reason gains ground and individual lives are reclaimed by the individuals who own them.

[kevin]

I guess I couldn't be sad if someone told me something I'd said had caused them to leave the faith because I would see it not as losing faith but as gaining reason.  I'm always glad when reason gains ground and individual lives are reclaimed by the individuals who own them.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. (John 8:32)"

 

I guess we can interpret this any way we want to, because the truth really has set me free.

 

Kevin:

[Fweethawt]

"And you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free. (John 8:32)"

 

I guess we can interpret this any way we want to, because the truth really has set me free.

 

Kevin:

 

Don't be surprised to find a handful of bible verses every now and then that actually do pertain to experiences outside of "The Faith".

 

It does happen. And it could very well lead you to second-guessing your reasons for deconversion. However, you must understand that the whole theology itself is designed to infiltrate your mind in any way that it possibly can.

[qadeshet]

Leaving christianity has been like waking up from a dream, and realising it was just a dream. It sounds self righteous, but I want to wake christians up from their dream.

 

Leaving xianity is like coming out of a long dark tunnel-or being reborn. You're so happy, you want to tell everyone. But after 30 years of being an ex xian I no longer care what anyone else believes. Why bang your head against the brick wall of a xian's thick skull? When they are ready to break free they will find a web site like this one. We will be there to help them break their chains.