Guest aexapo Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 While reading the thread in "debating with Christians," [i]replying to moderate Christians[/i], I came across the following paragraph: There are some atheists or nonbelievers anyways, who cling to the label Christian. Act like a Christian, and hide thier nonbelief. This is still very probable. There are people who only admit atheism or nonbelief to a select few. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What about those of our mindset that DO hide their disbelief? What about those of us who are "out" on our non-spirituality -- how important is it to us? Personally, I've never experienced more personal freedom since I stopped pretending to believe, or stopped paying lip-service to Christian cliches' ("Just put it God's hands!") -- but how much would it really worth under different circumstances? If we were to become a closed society (not getting politically prophetic here -- we can save that for another thread) where only Christians were allowed to participate, and where non-Christians had the choice of converting or going to re-orientation camps (or execution) -- what would you do? It seems brave and noble to "die for your beliefs/(nonbeliefs)" -- but, without a redemptive afterlife to assist us with our bravery, what consequence would it have? Is life in the dark worth more than no life at all? I don't know that I could die without there being reasonable odds that it would benefit me in the long run -- I kinda like being alive; but I'd like to hear your viewpoints. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ nivek ♦ Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Dunno quite how to respond to the stipulation(s) made amigo.. Patton was quoted in part: "..don't die for your Country, make those poor sunsabitches die for theirs.." I have no intention of going out and having some xtian soldier ove daLarde taking from me everything. In all occasions my thoughts on "Ballistics Parties", the giving of slugs pointed out, has been noted by many as *crazy talk*. Attempt anymore to choose my fights and time spent doing them. Not enough time to tilt at every windmill... Understand, I keep a lot of my own counsel, and that to myself. Have a few visible signs of dis- and un-belief on my vehicle and clothing, try not to be a shit magnet. The big however is that when shit comes to stick, I am ready to keep it off me and mine.. If in that things have 30 Vetos poised at them and the Ballots in the Ballistics Party are cast, I'll do my best to make sure I am not "Second Place Winner". kL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Difficult question to answer. I think it would depend on situation too. If my family still would be depending on my survival, they would go first, and I would hide my un-faith to protect them. And like d-c said, some atheists hide the truth from some, like I haven't told everyone in my family, but pretended to be christian still, out of consideration of my dads health, and I really don't want to start a family feud. But I discovered that two of my siblings have fallen of faith too, and I have been very upfront and honest with those two. Since I don't have a god requiring me to be honest in all situations anymore, I don't have an issue to do so act-playing to keep things in order. I pick my fights, that's all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thomas Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 While reading the thread in "debating with Christians," [i]replying to moderate Christians[/i], I came across the following paragraph:What about those of our mindset that DO hide their disbelief? What about those of us who are "out" on our non-spirituality -- how important is it to us? Personally, I've never experienced more personal freedom since I stopped pretending to believe, or stopped paying lip-service to Christian cliches' ("Just put it God's hands!") -- but how much would it really worth under different circumstances? If we were to become a closed society (not getting politically prophetic here -- we can save that for another thread) where only Christians were allowed to participate, and where non-Christians had the choice of converting or going to re-orientation camps (or execution) -- what would you do? It seems brave and noble to "die for your beliefs/(nonbeliefs)" -- but, without a redemptive afterlife to assist us with our bravery, what consequence would it have? Is life in the dark worth more than no life at all? I don't know that I could die without there being reasonable odds that it would benefit me in the long run -- I kinda like being alive; but I'd like to hear your viewpoints. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Christians are supposed to show their faith to all people and even to die for it. I do not feel the same obligation to show my "non faith" here and there and everywhere, and I will certainly never die for it. It is better to stay alive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I'm not going to burn at the stake. Xtian's in thier infinite evil wouldn't be above doing just that. They have done it before, they could do it again. I would certainly try to hide it and escape to somewhere else if it came to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heimdall Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I would do as the Islamic fundementalists and set up a non-Christian sleeper cell, awaiting the return of rationality! - Heimdall Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Fuck no! Let's say I'm in Muslim hands and they've got a sword to my throat and demanding that I embrace Allah or else. I'd fucking convert in a heartbeat. And then after I escaped these assholes, I'd publically renounce Allah and piss on a Qur'an, rip out the pages and wipe my ass with them! As far as I'm concerned, "Any promise made under duress is NOT binding." I may be opinionated, but I ain't fucking crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dragonblade Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 As far as I'm concerned, "Any promise made under duress is NOT binding." <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's correct. Any type of conversion or promise under such circumstances don't mean shit. Hell, even Peter did the same thing during the denial, and guess who has the keys to the kingdom? Hmmmm....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TruthWarrior Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I'd agree with Nivek. It depends on the situation. I would prefer to fight theocrats and corrupt christian mobs though. At least die trying. I'm sure if there came to be an "evil christian dictatorship", there'd be a bunch of underground christians fighting along side of me against them. With smaller situations, like if I was stuck in the wrong town in the south, then I'd just flee north. Whatever works. As for having to make a choice tied to a steak (mmm... steak) or with a knife to my throat, I suppose I'd fake it and say I believed. But again, my mood could be different then, and I wouldnt have as much to loose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 What about those of our mindset that DO hide their disbelief? What about those of us who are "out" on our non-spirituality -- how important is it to us? I'd kick my whole family to the curb, if they can't deal with my apostacy and not just friendships. They better change thier tune, if I'm important to them at all. Personally, I've never experienced more personal freedom since I stopped pretending to believe, or stopped paying lip-service to Christian cliches' ("Just put it God's hands!") -- but how much would it really worth under different circumstances? If we were to become a closed society (not getting politically prophetic here -- we can save that for another thread) where only Christians were allowed to participate, and where non-Christians had the choice of converting or going to re-orientation camps (or execution) -- what would you do? I would lie to save a life or Lives. I would lie to save my life so that I could manuever myself into a position to help unbelievers leave the country. I'd start/ actively support an underground. It seems brave and noble to "die for your beliefs/(nonbeliefs)" -- but, without a redemptive afterlife to assist us with our bravery, what consequence would it have? Is life in the dark worth more than no life at all? To some people. I would die to save a life or lives, but I'd lie and keep quiet to most people until I could figure out a way to help others leave the country. I am a pacifist so rebellion would be out of the question for me. I don't know that I could die without there being reasonable odds that it would benefit me in the long run -- I kinda like being alive; but I'd like to hear your viewpoints. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I would lie my ass off and be a chameleon while helping people flee the country. I would risk my life that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chefranden Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I would become an insurgent. A mild mannered fake Christian by day, and a crazed car bomber by night. Actually I don't know. I sometimes have trouble choosing between Cookies and Cream and Pepperment Bon Bon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 I would become an insurgent. A mild mannered fake Christian by day, and a crazed car bomber by night. Actually I don't know. I sometimes have trouble choosing between Cookies and Cream and Pepperment Bon Bon. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Its a good thing it will never come to life or death in this country when it comes to beliefs.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanakila Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Christians are supposed to show their faith to all people and even to die for it. I do not feel the same obligation to show my "non faith" here and there and everywhere, and I will certainly never die for it. It is better to stay alive. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Same here. My philosophy of what they don't know won't hurt me applies here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Same here. My philosophy of what they don't know won't hurt me applies here. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> There is nothing wrong with that. If you could live with being a pretend xian or if your family, relatives and friends don't care what you believe. Sooner or later depending on the type of xers you are related to, you will be pressed. As to the other questions, Life and death is not something to take lightly and choosing the best odds of surviving, even if it means playing lip service to jesus around others is not stupid, if you can live with it. That is part of what was being asked. Although, in such a situation as put to us by aexapo, there may be people who would feel differently and would not be able to cope with the hypocricy or the tyranny. To me atheism is a lack of belief in gods only and should never be a cause. I was talking about anti-evangelism as well as, and especially, spreading Free Thought in the thread it was taken from. Free Thinkers make better citizens and better citizens would most likely mean better polticians. The questions put to us in this thread is very interesting. I would be curious as well how people would handle such a situation. I think these were good questions aexapo asked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pitchu Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 There are individual people and broad social/ethical struggles which could be worth the forfeiting of my life. Losing it in a useless stand-off with a homocidal, deluded, religious imbecile ain't gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 There are individual people and broad social/ethical struggles which could be worth the forfeiting of my life. Losing it in a useless stand-off with a homocidal, deluded, religious imbecile ain't gonna happen. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That is why, in the hypothetical question put to us, I would choose helping people flee the country, instead of rebellion. I think leaving if you could would mean fewer deaths than being rebels. In such a situation, if the xers allowed all to freely leave, then I would simply leave. I WOULD HOWEVER TRY TO OPPOSE SUCH A SITUATION FROM EVER HAPPENING IN A PEACEFUL MANNER BEFORE SOMETHING LIKE THAT EVER HAPPENED. More Free Thinking Citizens would make such a situation even harder for fundies to succeed in something like that in the first place. If Free Thinkers were more visible in their communities then more and more people would be exposed to what free thought is and would apply it to varing degrees, thus reducing ignorance and blind obediance. Even Christians can be Free Thinkers to a degree. Enough so that they would not cotton to a theocracy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ro-bear Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Fuck no! Let's say I'm in Muslim hands and they've got a sword to my throat and demanding that I embrace Allah or else. I'd fucking convert in a heartbeat. And then after I escaped these assholes, I'd publically renounce Allah and piss on a Qur'an, rip out the pages and wipe my ass with them! As far as I'm concerned, "Any promise made under duress is NOT binding." I may be opinionated, but I ain't fucking crazy. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I'm with you; why die when you can lie? I would rather be a living advocate of free thought than a martyr for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted August 29, 2005 Share Posted August 29, 2005 Add me to the "it depends" list. If my country was overrun by Islamic extremists forcing people to convert at gunpoint or something bizarre like that, I'd seriously be tempted to tell them to fuck off. I think I'd rather take my chances with the universe and bet on the possibility of reincarnation. I don't want to be forced to be silent for the rest of my life, acquiesce to some man's rules, forced to wear a veil, or never be able to write what I want to. If I had to give up my freedom of speech or die, I think I'd rather die. Life's not worth having to give up your dreams for it. But yes, in the vast majority of situations, I'd probably tell them whatever the hell they wanted to hear, just so they would leave me alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 That is what I would do too if it were life or death. I would be very tempted at least to tell them to shove it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brutal Brian Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Wow! I guess I am in left field in my views. Unless it meant family or others in a current company's well being, who I would obviously consider first and I wouldn't, I would rather die than ever confess just to save my life. I am sorry, if it is just my own life, I would rather die than ever submit to the whims of fucking terrorists. They can kill me and I would tell them to stick their collective beliefs up their asses. Sorry I think that way, that is just how I feel. I have had enough of the conversion shit and I would never be submitted to it again. -Brutal Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angel Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 That is a hard question to answer, it all depends on the situation. I know if I were still the religious puppet, and I were asked would I die for Jesus, well I am sure you know what I would have said.... If I had to protect my husband with my decision, hell yeah i would lie...just being honest with you all. (boy, that looks REALLY weird in the same sentence) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LadyFeline Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 No. I will die for people. But NEVER for objects, ideals, or personal beliefs. Objects can be replaced, ideals and beliefs change over time... But if you lose a person, they're never coming back. And, if I had to choose between, say, my mother's life or my life... Well, I'd choose hers in a heartbeat. However, if I had to choose between differing sets of ideals, then, well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panther Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 Well....I feel strongly that some moron or group of morons dont have the right to take anyone's life based on belief..... With that said, I would lie my pants off!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lunar Shadow Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 why is everyone saying no? I mean come on people you would rather pretend to endorse a God? I would rather die. seriously people *shakes head* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Merlinfmct87 Posted August 30, 2005 Share Posted August 30, 2005 The question for me is "What is on the line?" If it's just some answer on a questionnaire, I'm a fundie Christian baby! If more depends on it, I'l sacrifice/risk more. But die because of a question? Hell no. I have better things to fight for. Merlin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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