Meaning In Life

[Guest fluffy cornsnake]

Hiya.

 

Stumbled across this site today, find it pretty fascinating...

 

So I'm a (wavering) christian, not looking for a fight, but just curious as to the kinds of ways ex-Christians go about creating meaning for themselves. i.e. Ex-Christian cures for an existential crisis

 

I know that many folk ground their sense of significance in making the world a better place, anyway they can, for its own sake. That's cool, and I guess I'm really asking how ex-Christians get around the problem of nihilism.

 

For me, I can't see anything but a stark choice between christianity or total nihilism (of the terrifying sort portrayed by Neitsche in his Death of God/Lantern extract). I know that nihilism is really only the pessimistic side of the atheistic coin (if you'll excuse the flamboyant metaphors lol), and that it's just as rational to adopt a constructive existential philosophy as it is to adopt a destructive one. But for me personally, without this flimsy scrap of faith to cling onto I can't honestly imagine myself hanging around for long. I find it hard enough to function in this absurd society of ours even upon a belief in objective meaning - let alone function upon a subjective self-created one... Sure, that probably says more about my character flaws and insecurities than anything else, but meh. I just wanna hear some other folks' thoughts on this. As ex-christians I'm hoping you kind of understand where I'm coming from... How do you approach, and deal with, these nihilist shenanigans?

 

Again, I'm not looking to get into an argument, just genuinely interested in responses to this. Hope this hasn't purely come across as the three-in-the-morning-night-before-an-essay-deadline-ramble that it is, but that I've also vaguely managed to communicate something, heh. Would love to hear any thoughts (from any side of any fence)

 

Apologies in advance for all the noob faux pas' I've undoubtedly committed. Especially if this is the wrong forum to be posting in. lol.

 

Cheers...

[Shyone]

I like your approach. To give your questions the treatment they deserve would require a book, but let's see if some of use can come up with some nuggets to explain things quickly.

 

First, in your life, you probably do a lot of stuff day-to-day that is just fun, routine, out of love for others, because it's interesting, etc. You don't do it just to get to heaven. Even just surprising your spouse with a gift can make joy shine in every direction. It's the best thing!

 

Ever solved a puzzle? Wonderful, fascinating and gratifying. That's science for me. Insight into the actual nature of things. How did we get here? Anthropology has better answers than the religious "poof" theory.

 

"Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy." An old song line from John Denver. Simple, direct, and true.

 

I finally figured out that the "Ultimate Meaning" and "Absolute Whatever" are superlatives without any truth or reason behind them. If "getting to heaven" is the ultimate, then doing things only to get to the great (imaginary) beyond is awfully selfish. Help a little lady across the street? Because you're nice and like to help others, or you want brownie points with the big Sky-Daddy?

 

If the only way to have "real love" is to have a three-way with Jesus, then religion is way to involved in your sex life - and every other part of your life.

 

When it comes to death and "the great beyond", atheism has no fanciful tales to tell. It doesn't sugar coat the truth. "Little Fido is in doggy-heaven!" "Your little fish Nemo is in fishy-heaven!" No, it looks like what happens after we die is the same as before we were born. As someone else said, it didn't bother me a bit to not have been born. That is a form of nihilism that is just the result of examining life, nature, and logic.

 

So, we give meaning to this life precisely because it is valuable. There is no second chance, no eternal happy-place that warrants not wearing seat-belts. Make the most of it, be good to people, and they'll be good to you, don't waste your time or energy chasing phantoms.

[Legion]

Meaning, as in purpose?

 

I suppose I lean towards the idea that each of us has a unique and self-created purpose. By "us" I mean every living organism.

 

As for an overarching purpose, I'm not sure. I don't subscribe to teleology, but when I look at the rough narrative that our sciences have patched together, I can't escape some general feeling of progress. I know there are local setbacks, mass extinctions and dark ages and the like. However I still have a notion of increasing development and elaboration overall. So even if nature is not technically goal driven, it still seems to me as if the universe was trying to express something.

 

But then I'm generally optimistic. I hope I don't look at everything through rose colored glasses, but neither do I wish to wallow in nihilism. Besides it seems self defeating to me. If everything has no meaning, then this itself also has no meaning.

[qec]

Seeing as how you are Scottish I would recommend you familiarize yourself with what the Philosophers amongst this group of people had to say about the "world": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Enlightenment

 

Such an examen, in my humble opinion, would yield a culturally grounded approach to examining important questions that you want to explore. I cannot respond in length right now but I will be back in this thread, and my advice is to read up on what some of those philosophers in that weblink had to say about the world, again because you are Scottish.

 

Pax.

[insanezenmistress]

Hiya.

 

Stumbled across this site today, find it pretty fascinating...

 

So I'm a (wavering) christian, not looking for a fight, but just curious as to the kinds of ways ex-Christians go about creating meaning for themselves. i.e. Ex-Christian cures for an existential crisis

 

It is a pleasure that you stepped out and bravely asked what comes from your hurt and heart. Yes Christians create meaning from themselfs through their fiath. Their own ideas of things good, things nobel , all that you are struggleing to keep, these things dont belong to the religion, they where stolen from you. [/font=Palatino Linotype][/size=3]

 

 

I know that many folk ground their sense of significance in making the world a better place, anyway they can, for its own sake. That's cool, and I guess I'm really asking how ex-Christians get around the problem of nihilism.

 

For me, I can't see anything but a stark choice between christianity or total nihilism (of the terrifying sort portrayed by Neitsche in his Death of God/Lantern extract). I know that nihilism is really only the pessimistic side of the atheistic coin (if you'll excuse the flamboyant metaphors lol), and that it's just as rational to adopt a constructive existential philosophy as it is to adopt a destructive one. But for me personally, without this flimsy scrap of faith to cling onto I can't honestly imagine myself hanging around for long. I find it hard enough to function in this absurd society of ours even upon a belief in objective meaning - let alone function upon a subjective self-created one... Sure, that probably says more about my character flaws and insecurities than anything else, but meh. I just wanna hear some other folks' thoughts on this. As ex-christians I'm hoping you kind of understand where I'm coming from... How do you approach, and deal with, these nihilist shenanigans?

 

 

The problem of nihilism is still quite difficult for me. You are giving yourself an ethier or nether nor, senerieo. And i think this is a false dilema, because things dont always go that way.

Reality is not the same for everyone, a lie for one man, might up hold the truth for another.

 

Yes I talk in metaphor, but this is how i create meaning for myself, and try to share it with you. Why do i talk like this? It is human nature, and there is a balance somewhere in a soft middle.

 

There is no absolute, only momentary personal judgments, and the hope.

 

Find your middle, from there a millions paths colide. Then you have a true delima.

 

Like trying to figure out HTML.

 

IZM

 

[/font=Palatino Linotype]/

[florduh]

Welcome to the site.

 

I can't see anything but a stark choice between christianity or total nihilism

 

I don't see where there's a connection between atheism and nihilism. That concept only comes from religious people who can't imagine life without their imagined god. Atheism isn't a monolith of philosophy, belief or world view. It is simply a lack of belief in gods. Period. Atheism is a conclusion, not a decision or choice. When an idea such as a god is proposed, a rational mind will reject that idea if there is no supporting evidence, and atheists can find no such evidence for gods.

 

I don't share your view of there being a "stark choice" but I think there are only two ways people live their life. You either believe in magic or you don't.

 

Remember that you chose Christianity as the cure for Nihilism only because you are most familiar with that religion. Others might just as easily say they couldn't bear reality without a belief in the fantasy of Islam, or Reincarnation, or Spiritualism, or Valhalla.

[Brakeman]

If you think back to happier times in your life, those moments were probably spent not believing in thousands of other possible gods, all an atheist does is drop one more.

[oddbird1963]

If you think back to happier times in your life, those moments were probably spent not believing in thousands of other possible gods, all an atheist does is drop one more.

 

Ha! Well stated, Brakeman!

[par4dcourse]

Welcome to the site, Fluffy. I like your attitude. You'll get some meaningful discussion, and maybe some answers with that approach.

Happy journeys.

--Larry

[NotBlinded]

I think it's pretty easy to answer yourself if you ask, "What is the meaning of heaven?" I'm a little confused when people ask about the meaning of life being of no importance if there is nothing after life. The meaning of life is life itself. That's pretty big if you ask me. Why postpone meaning for a later time if we have to ask what the meaning of heaven is or what the meaning of God is? Dance as if the end isn't the most important part...

[Guest fluffy cornsnake]

 

"Sunshine on my shoulders makes me happy." An old song line from John Denver. Simple, direct, and true.

 

If "getting to heaven" is the ultimate, then doing things only to get to the great (imaginary) beyond is awfully selfish.

 

Yeah, happiness is choosing positive perception; I just find that hard to keep up in the face of an unfair world.

 

It's not so much 'me' that bothers me... if I found myself in hell tomorrow I'd still take a lot of comfort knowing that I'm joined by the likes of Hitler, whilst millions of his victims were in a better place. In that sense, the whole sky-daddy argument isn't relevant to me; my belief may be a coping mechanism, but it's not an insurance policy

 

 

If everything has no meaning, then this itself also has no meaning.

 

I haven't considered it before but that's actually a really good point... You're right!

 

 

 

It is a pleasure that you stepped out and bravely asked what comes from your hurt and heart. Yes Christians create meaning from themselfs through their fiath. Their own ideas of things good, things nobel , all that you are struggleing to keep, these things dont belong to the religion, they where stolen from you. [/b][/i][/font=Palatino Linotype][/size=3]

 

 

 

Atheism isn't a monolith of philosophy, belief or world view. It is simply a lack of belief in gods. Period. Atheism is a conclusion, not a decision or choice.

 

True, but that simple deduction isn't enough, humans have to build a philosophy upon that premise, hence existentialism, absurdism, nihilism, etc. Is it really possible to "just" be an atheist, and no more?

 

Ultimately, atheism is as a belief just like theism, no? God's existence cannot be proven or disproven absolutely. Human reason only goes so far and then we draw our own conclusions. From that, it seems to me that any form of existentialism is, or at least can be, used as a coping mechanism of sorts. We need to feel justified/worthwhile so we create meaning for ourselves. As insanezenmistress pointed out, that manifests itself in christianity in the same way, but christianity provides a worldview, whereas existentialism can only really provide a personal one (referring back to the Hitler/unfairness notion) And... I've forgotten where I was going with this... I'll come back to that

 

I'm just gushing a stream of thought now...

 

Thanks for the replies anyhow, I appreciate the interest.

[florduh]

Ultimately, atheism is as a belief just like theism, no?

No.

 

Atheism is simply lacking belief in gods. Look it up if you don't believe me.

 

That said, some atheists are humanists, some are Buddhists. A few are priests, and some are investment bankers. They are individuals who follow many paths or disciplines, or perhaps none at all. To call themselves atheist requires only only one thing, no god beliefs.

 

Also, one does not need to disprove the existence of a god to absolute certainty in order to call himself an atheist. No rational person believes in the literal Santa, yet it is impossible to disprove his existence; we just know it isn't very likely that he's real. Those who make an extraordinary claim must be able to support their belief with facts. As with Santa, the probability of any god existing is virtually nil in my mind, and that's good enough. The probability of the specific god Jehovah existing as described in the Bible is absolutely zero since the descriptions of his nature and actions are contradictory and there is no evidence pointing to his being anything more than imagination.

[Dagan]

Once upon a time when I was still a "True Christian" I used to say that if I wasn't a Christian that I would be a nihilist because there just wasn't any other choice, that a world without God just didn't make any sense.

 

But now I see how that was a false dichotomy, a product of the black-and-white, good-versus-evil thinking that characterizes Christianity. I also see how in some ways that reflects the sickness at the core of Christianity. I believed the only alternative to faith was a self-destructive, self-absorbed spiral into oblivion. To believe that I must have believed the world was a truly terrible place! How can someone go on day after day believing the world is so bad? It rots your brain. Yet in order for the Christian God and Jesus and Holy Spirit to be as great as Christians say they are, the world without them has to be horrible. Otherwise, Jesus' sacrifice really means nothing.

 

In my late 20s I realized the world is a lot more complicated than good and bad and black and white. That sometimes things just happen for no reason. That sometimes they have no reason but have meaning – the meaning I choose to give them. And when I lost my faith, this became even more clear to me.

 

That's what I have learned. It sounds trite, but life really is what you make it. And I've found that a lot more freeing and joyful than wondering if I was truly following God's will for my life, worrying about what the greater purpose was for everything that happened.

 

I'm not a nihilist. That's a poisonous position to be in. No, life is too precious and the world is too wonderful to be black and gloomy and self-destructive.

 

Do I have bad days? Sure. But seeing the snow on the mountains or hearing my son laugh or watching a seagull fruitlessly try and fly in a windstorm while a raven sits in a tree watching and cackling just makes me smile, makes me rediscover the joy in life again. And post-God, I'm learning to do that more and more.

[Shyone]

 

 

Atheism isn't a monolith of philosophy, belief or world view. It is simply a lack of belief in gods. Period. Atheism is a conclusion, not a decision or choice.

 

True, but that simple deduction isn't enough, humans have to build a philosophy upon that premise, hence existentialism, absurdism, nihilism, etc. Is it really possible to "just" be an atheist, and no more?

 

Well, yes. My background is mostly scientific, and when I looked at humans, animals, life, DNA, and every other branch of science, it occurred to me that there is no basis for any supernatural existence. The term supernatural is meaningless to me. I find the concept of Zeus to be absurd, and the same is true for other gods. The Hebrew god has no more appeal than Mithra. So I don't believe in God. Period.

 

Ultimately, atheism is as a belief just like theism, no? God's existence cannot be proven or disproven absolutely. Human reason only goes so far and then we draw our own conclusions. From that, it seems to me that any form of existentialism is, or at least can be, used as a coping mechanism of sorts. We need to feel justified/worthwhile so we create meaning for ourselves. As insanezenmistress pointed out, that manifests itself in christianity in the same way, but christianity provides a worldview, whereas existentialism can only really provide a personal one (referring back to the Hitler/unfairness notion) And... I've forgotten where I was going with this... I'll come back to that

 

I'm just gushing a stream of thought now...

 

Thanks for the replies anyhow, I appreciate the interest.

A while back it became apparent that there was no Santa Claus. Does that make me an Santa Claus Existentialist?

 

It isn't a belief or choice, but a conclusion. If someone told you that God was on top of Mount Olympus, and you climbed Mount Olympus, then the lack of gods there should mean something. Some concepts of god are logically inconsistent and self-contradictory. These can be excluded out of hand. The Omnibenevolent, Omnipresent, Omniscient and Omipotent gods are demonstrably false.

 

As for something mysterious, different, unknown, or not understood, then it is irrelevant to my existence.

 

It is spectacularly dumb to devote ones entire life to something that is false. We can only draw conclusions based on evidence, and there is no evidence for the "supernatural" that is convincing.

 

Would you bow down to a statue of Ishtar? Worship? Follow rules that some priest declared were delivered personally to him from Ishtar? What a waste of time.

 

Would you leave your family to spread the word of a god to those who are unaware of its existence? I'd call that abandonment. We each have responsibilities, and fortunately most responsibilities are also enjoyable in one way or another. Providing for family is at the top of my list.

 

To the extent that religion promotes goodness to others, religion may be good, but why not do it because it's the right thing to do, and because rewards received are accolades from friends and family - and those helped.

 

We are social beings. We live in society. Our altruism benefits all, and our parsimony can backfire. So why not be generous? Where is the god? What does any god do?

 

A worldview with religion can be either good or bad, but the reasons behind the worldview make all the difference.

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

There are vast areas to explore between Christianity and Atheism. To give yourself a choice of one or another isn't necessary. Generally there is a path from Christianity that you take which may or may not eventually lead to atheism. Many of us find ourselves happily deists or pantheists. The main thing is opening your mind and allowing more than just Christianity to build your worldview and understanding of deity and the afterlife. My initial problem with Christianity was its attempt to define god by an old and unproven book that excludes so many people.

 

Some ex-Christians are atheists, and they have found meaning in their lives. They have morality and a belief system, but atheism itself is neither of these things. Secular humanism and rationalism are the belief systems that give life meaning and morality. Atheism is simply not believing in god(s).

 

If you find yourself doubting the validity of Christianity, that is just one step. You don't need to throw yourself right into atheism, especially if it also does not seem right to you. Figure out what problems you have with Christianity (the Bible, the guilt complex, the opposition to science etc). Then explore those problems (we'll be happy to discuss them!) and challenge your current worldview. In the spectrum of human belief there are many places you can find truth and happiness.

[Ouroboros]

What everyone else said. ^^^^

 

Plus this:

 

What is the meaning of asking what the meaning is of life? And what does the word meaning really mean? Is the the same for everyone?

[NotBlinded]

What everyone else said. ^^^^

 

Plus this:

 

What is the meaning of asking what the meaning is of life? And what does the word meaning really mean? Is the the same for everyone?

What do you mean?

[Rev R]

What do you mean?

 

Who is it that asks?

[Ouroboros]

What do you mean?

Oh, shucks! You're so mean asking that.

 

 

Who is it that asks?

Depends on how much you value things. What value do you give life? The mean value or just average?

[Rev R]

Depends on how much you value things. What value do you give life? The mean value or just average?

 

Generally I stick with market value.

 

 

In my mind (what there is left of it) the "ultimate meaning of life" is simple: live it and don't impede others from doing the same.

[Ouroboros]

Generally I stick with market value.

Right, never short sell your life.

 

In my mind (what there is left of it) the "ultimate meaning of life" is simple: live it and don't impede others from doing the same.

[qec]

My additional thoughts are that religion of any sort is only one of many ways that one can give meaning to one's life. The false dichotomy of religion versus nihilism I think has more to do with the psychologically crushing pressure of the real world we all find ourselves in, and indeed it must be pointed out that even if one counts the Buddhists of our race as Atheists then a good 2/3rds of us believe in God. That's sixty six percent of mankind that believes in a personal God of some sort. I think 99% believe in some sort of spiritual occult dimension if you just include the whole gamut of things out there, and I think it's worth mentioning very strongly that we as Atheists are in the minority. I tend to, as a result of these observations, live and let live with others who find themselves of various religious or spiritual persuasions. Even if you did decide to be an Atheist because you saw through the lies as others here do, you need not be even hostile to religion in general, as some here are. Atheism really is merely a more precise and accurate intellectual understanding of what is going on, and only states what one doesn't believe in and not what one does believe in, so there is no need to even have the same priorities of other Atheists who, say, might have an axe to grind with Religion; you could just come to an understanding of what's important to you, the meaning you give the world you find yourself in, and then just move on with your life.' I should also say that it's been my understanding that Atheism in and of itself doesn't guarantee some sort of moral clarity or moral superiority; just look at what Communism did in the USSR when the State replaced Religion with itself and taught Atheism in the schools. Tens of millions where shipped off to Gulags to die horrible deaths, so I should say that Atheism itself is no guarantor of any superiority other than a more precise, accurate, and honest intellectual assessment of certain things we find ourselves, as humans, dealing with.

 

I suggest reading some of those philosophers in that link I gave you, and finding out what they thought about things and how that affected them, again as you are Scottish. This might help you to understand and look at things a different way rather than feeling overwhelmed by some sort of inevitable nihilistic approach.

[Antlerman]

Meaning in life is found in abandoning all self identity to the will of leaders appointed by God to show us the way to live. Look for truth in others, not yourself. Salvation through resignation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

('m kidding).

[agnosticator]

...I'm really asking how ex-Christians get around the problem of nihilism.

 

For me, I can't see anything but a stark choice between christianity or total nihilism (of the terrifying sort portrayed by Neitsche in his Death of God/Lantern extract).

 

 

When I became an ex-christian, I found that I stopped believing what you think is the only other "choice": nihilism. I didn't choose to deconvert, christian belief just disappeared, as did the belief in nihilism, the supposed next logical step.

 

If you were born in Iran, would your "choice" be between christianity and nihilism? No, of course not. You would have the "choice" between Islam and your execution by Sharia law. So, what you believe your options are, is really just a prejudiced christian belief (as others have stated in previous posts).

[oddbird1963]

I have not found nihilism to be a problem. I once held the view that without the Christian faith all things would resort to nihilism. But after my faith went away and I was no longer a believer, I have found that descent into nihilism has not been and issue.

 

What is missing in the false dichotomy of "Christianity vs nihilism" is the power of humanity to reach out to this world and receive a sense of wonder, fulfillment and joy in engaging with other people and nature.

 

I prefer the mantra from Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure: "Be excellent to one another!"

 

Enjoy yourself, try not to hurt anybody else and trust your natural capacity to do the right thing to make you a contributor to society.

 

By the way, this is yet another false dichotomy that the christian religion presents us with. Has anyone else noticed how many over-simplified false dichotomies we are presented with by Christian apologists?