Legion Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 In my mind (what there is left of it) the "ultimate meaning of life" is simple: live it and don't impede others from doing the same. Well that may be what's in your mind, but watching girls fall down is part of my life. This entails that they are impeded a wee bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Franko47 Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Nihilism is often a stage people go through when they come to a point of abandoning religion, especially the indoctrinations of childhood. I watched one of my nephews go through this; for a while he was cynical, nothing really mattered, but through it all he still maintained his moral center. Life is a system of values; it has no real meaning. We all have a hierarchy of values, stuff that's more important to us than other stuff. Many of us would rather establish that on our own, rather than have it distilled down into a baby bottle formula (religious dogma, etc). For some people, they reach a point where they don't need a "God" or a system of religious morals to "ratify" their values, or life choices. In fact, for many, religion runs counter to a feeling of personal freedom to make these choices for ourselves. There are many who believe that an atheist cannot be "spiritual". Nothing could be farther from the truth. I see my atheism as a form of self-honesty; I abide by my system of values. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. I don't run to magical gods for forgiveness. When I'm right, especially against the grain....well, that really is rewarding. Truth ? Reality is what I say it is. And I trust my own pompous musings over that of barbarian sheep herders living in a ruthless superstition filled world of centuries upon centuries ago. Also, atheists have more of a willingness to face the dark side of human nature as something that needs to be disciplined and controlled; not a syndrome of total condemnation of the entire person or human race. In fact, it is religion that tends to get a little nihilistic. "We are all nothing without the Lord" ??? I'm certain we've all heard these kinds of remarks and related statements that tend to render a person's life and actions "meaningless" unless they have imaginary "cosmic approval". Again, what a nightmare that is. Any system of thinking that continously de-values humans outside of that system is evil. And nihilistic. I am a thinking person, and I hold value with myself. I am a self-contained entity; I don't require permission from invisible gods to enjoy my life and also face the consequences of my actions. I'd say that's closer to the opposite of nihilism. Sorry to ramble; I just wanted to roll some of these remarks out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darch Grant Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hiya. Stumbled across this site today, find it pretty fascinating... So I'm a (wavering) christian, not looking for a fight, but just curious as to the kinds of ways ex-Christians go about creating meaning for themselves. Hello! I, too, just stumbled across this site recently, and I really like it. I was a (wavering) Christian before I became an ex-Christian. I'm not saying that's where you're headed, but you never know. As for your question about "meaning" . . . I hear Christians ask that question a lot. And yet, as someone else already pointed out, I am curious as to what you mean when you use that word. It seems to me that the quality of "meaningfulness" is, in itself, subjective. In other words, what is meaningful for one person may not be meaningful to another. I am curious as to the Christian perspective that his or her life is meaningful simply because he or she believes that a God exists who has assigned a certain purpose to that life. I don't consider the Christian God character to be good, so even if I believed that that god existed---I don't think I'd gain too much satisfaction in feeling that my life had meaning. Rather, I would consider myself to be a mere pawn (or object, if you were) used by a powerful entity to execute a "plan" that I didn't see as worthy. For me, that's just not meaningful or at least it's not meaningful in any way that I would find satisfying. Let me see if I can put it another way....let's say that a woman named Sheila is kidnapped and held hostage by a sociopath named Ed. Ed has a purpose for Sheila's life: he wants to rape her and beat her and force her to do everything he wants her to do anytime he wants it. If Sheila lives with Ed until he kills her---was Sheila's life with Ed meaningful? Did it have purpose? Did her life have value? Obviously, in this case, her life DID have a purpose and her life WAS valued (by Ed). In this case, wouldn't we have to conclude that her life was meaningful? Yet, surely no one would prefer the sort of existence that Sheila was subjected to simply because that is the only existence they could imagine in which they would feel that their life had meaning? I apologize for using such a dramatic example to make my point, but do you see what I'm saying? What is meaningful to one person is not necessarily meaningful to another person. Perhaps when Christians refer to "lives without meaning," they really are referring to lives that do not go on eternally. And I guess I just don't get that. Why is it that the concept of a life that goes on eternally is any more desirable, any more "meaningful," than a life that is temporary? By the way--and this is not to you but to the powers that be---when I registered, I actually meant to type in "Darcy Grant" and NOT Darch--which I hate! Is there any way that that could be fixed? --Darcy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 By the way--and this is not to you but to the powers that be---when I registered, I actually meant to type in "Darcy Grant" and NOT Darch--which I hate! Is there any way that that could be fixed? Let me see if I can fix it. --- Fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shyone Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Hiya. Stumbled across this site today, find it pretty fascinating... So I'm a (wavering) christian, not looking for a fight, but just curious as to the kinds of ways ex-Christians go about creating meaning for themselves. --Darcy I liked the scenario about the kidnapper/rapist and his victim. To me, it speaks of "Free Will." Our lives are not entirely free. We have obligations, our inherent nature, our history, and life's circumstances that may be totally out of our control. Within these constraints, we seek to find the best life we can. Some lives are decidedly better than others, but even then there are constraints (laws, customs, etc.). The idea of eternity takes away all constraints. No goals, no obligations, no bodily urges. The only bad thing about it would be that it is so boring that even though you might want to commit suicide, you couldn't. As far as reaching this situation, our lives are not totally under our control, including innate drives, but also external forces. We may die at any time. If there is any requirement or set of requirements to merit a good afterlife, there can be no fairness if we don't have control over every aspect of our lives including the length. If atonement or some other act is required, but the person didn't live long enough, then the requirement is unfair and unreasonable. If, OTOH, universalism or grace is the case, then there is no reason to even consider what we do. If we cannot earn a priviledge, then there is no incentive to accomplish any particular metaphysical goal. Life makes sense if it lasts as long as it lasts and no more. Random snapshots of our lives do not represent us. Believe today, but not tomorrow; deserve heaven today, but not tomorrow? Bottom line, any theology that makes death better than life is foolish - and incidentally dangerous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darcy Grant Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Let me see if I can fix it. --- Fixed. Thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 What do you mean? Who is it that asks? When I look for the "who", I can't find it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 What do you mean? Oh, shucks! You're so mean asking that. Who is it that asks? Depends on how much you value things. What value do you give life? The mean value or just average? I like the median myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Meaning in life is found in abandoning all self identity to the will of leaders appointed by God to show us the way to live. Look for truth in others, not yourself. Salvation through resignation. ('m kidding). OMG! I almost had a heart attack! Shame on you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 In my mind (what there is left of it) the "ultimate meaning of life" is simple: live it and don't impede others from doing the same. Well that may be what's in your mind, but watching girls fall down is part of my life. This entails that they are impeded a wee bit. Legion! Self-impedement is not the same as having impedement inflicted upon you. I too laugh at other's self-inflicted impedeicism... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Life is like a box, or a treasure chest. The meaning of life, is when you fill the box with things you think are important. Some people fill their box with figurines of imaginary beings, ideas and concepts of things they can't see, and then they fill it to the brim with small sticky-notes of hope--hope for a bigger box after death. They're just not happy with the box they got now. Other people fill the box with things they find in this world; ideas and concepts of thins the can touch, see, and experience; and they hope to fill the box to the brim before they did because they only have this chance to do it. They wish they had a bigger box, but they have come to peace with what they got. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darcy Grant Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 The idea of eternity takes away all constraints. No goals, no obligations, no bodily urges. The only bad thing about it would be that it is so boring that even though you might want to commit suicide, you couldn't. Haha....loved your line about not being able to complete suicide in heaven. Your point about the meaning of life in heaven is interesting and not one that I’ve thought about before. I wonder how Christians would respond to that question. I’m thinking that they might say something along the lines of: “The purpose/meaning of our lives in heaven will be that we will be glorifying God.” If that is so, is that really a meaningful existence? Is it any more meaningful than saying we’ll be puppets on a stage? What if it was God’s purpose for someone to be a blithering idiot for all eternity? Would that really be “meaningful” to anyone? The sad thing is that I suspect it would. And again, herein lies the crux of the issue---what is meaningful to one person is not meaningful to another. “Meaningfulness” is a quality which is entirely subjective. Another interesting issue that this question bring up is the issue of predestination. According to Romans 9, God creates some people as objects of his wrath. I once asked a Christian about this. I said, “So let’s assume that I am one of those objects of wrath that God created. Why would he create me at all—knowing in advance that he was going to condemn me to all eternity. Am I just like—garbage—in God’s eyes?” The Christian: “No. Maybe he created you so that someone else could become a Christian.” Me: “Wait. So---you’re saying that I’m not garbage. I’m useful to God in the same way that a chicken might be useful to a farmer? You seem to be saying that God created me, in a sense, as a sacrifice. Are you saying that God created me—knowing that I would suffer eternity in hell—so that someone like your sister, perhaps, could look at my life and somehow want to become a Christian because of that?” The Christian: “Let me think about that and get back to you.” Instead of asking non-Christians how it is that they can find meaning in their lives, I wonder why Christians don’t spend more time examining the real meaning of their own lives and deciding for themselves whether or not this is the kind of meaning that really makes their lives worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Life is like a box, or a treasure chest. The meaning of life, is when you fill the box with things you think are important. Some people fill their box with figurines of imaginary beings, ideas and concepts of things they can't see, and then they fill it to the brim with small sticky-notes of hope--hope for a bigger box after death. They're just not happy with the box they got now. Other people fill the box with things they find in this world; ideas and concepts of thins the can touch, see, and experience; and they hope to fill the box to the brim before they did because they only have this chance to do it. They wish they had a bigger box, but they have come to peace with what they got. Oh...I like that Hans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Darcy, I like your insights. Welcome to the site! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Oh...I like that Hans. While I was writing it, I thought of you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darcy Grant Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Life is like a box, or a treasure chest. . . . Other people fill the box with things they find in this world; ideas and concepts of thins the can touch, see, and experience; and they hope to fill the box to the brim before they did because they only have this chance to do it. They wish they had a bigger box, but they have come to peace with what they got. That was a beautiful analogy and one that I find very helpful. Thank you for sharing that. Sometimes I feel as if Christians (or at least some Christians) feel that in this life, they’ve been given a box that is flawed or not as nice as the box that others have been given. Because of this, they feel disappointed or in some cases angry and vindictive. So rather than working to fill their boxes—flawed or otherwise--with as many wonderful, worthwhile things as they can—they set their sights on believing that one day, they will be given a box that is pre-filled with every good thing that they believed they were incapable of finding or creating in this life. At times, many Christians seem to be clinging to a sort of unconscious or semi-conscious vindication fantasy that is so consuming, it’s the only thing their box can hold. Thus, rather than creating meaning in their lives, they actually become attached to an ideology that robs their lives of meaning and happiness and every other good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Darcy Grant Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Darcy, I like your insights. Welcome to the site! Thank you so much. I only wish I had found this site sooner. I love it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 It's good that you're here now, and so far I like what I read. (Not only because you agreed with me... haha!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotBlinded Posted December 2, 2009 Share Posted December 2, 2009 Oh...I like that Hans. While I was writing it, I thought of you. Awwww... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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