Does The Christian God, Make Logical Sense.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Funnily enough after making up my mind, to look at the bible from the point of a outsider. I noticed I started to see the Christian God as revolting. And also a God, that is incoherent.

 

Like for example:

 

Why is it that all knowing, all powerful, all seeing deity. Make a rules saying shall not murder, then design the how the world plays out in such a way that there is the great flood and Sodom and Gomorrah.

 

Another: Why is it, that if we are supposed to have free will, in heaven, that God, couldn't just decide to apply the same concept, to planet earth, so where people like you and me would have free will, and yet like in "heaven" not sin.

[qec]

In Heaven there is no free will according to mainstream US Xian intepretations: we all do God's Will perfectly like The Borg.

[Shyone]

Clearly there are some "inconsistent behaviors" on the part of the Christian God if He remains tied to the Bible. The problems don't stop there though.

 

The god that grew out of the theology of the Omni everything is as logically inconsistent as a square circle however.

 

Evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omni benevolent God. If we define ‘evil’ and ‘good’ as opposites, and determine that good will always try to destroy evil, we can conclude that an all-powerful and good being would get rid of all evil; since this is not the case, an omnipotent good being cannot exist.

 

Likewise, adding omniscience to the mix makes free will impossible, so that removes one "defense" for the Omni god.

 

Aside from claiming that evil doesn't exist, or that it exists "for our own good", the Omni everything god is an impossibility.

 

Putting off the "restitution" for evil into the afterlife does not remove the problem of evil either, but rather makes life pointless and worthless.

 

Here is an excellent essay on the "problem of evil."

 

Most people have not considered the full implications of any of the superpowers attributed to God. All powerful is not a property that can be set aside. Setting aside omnipotence is incompatible with omnipotence. Things are the way an omnipotent being wants - period. Given awareness of a situation, and the possible actions of intervening or not intervening, the latter is as much an expression of omnipotence as the former.

 

Being omniscient, God would not be able to "shut his eyes." He could not help but be aware of everything. That is what omniscient means. It has the same implications for awareness as omnipotence has for the way things are.

 

Only by redefining the omni properties of god can the theist claim to have a god with omni properties, and that is fundamentally dishonest (on the part of the theist).

[MereChristian]

Clearly there are some "inconsistent behaviors" on the part of the Christian God if He remains tied to the Bible. The problems don't stop there though.

 

The easiest way to resolve those is to stop regarding the Bible as a wholly faithful account of God's activities.

 

Evil is logically inconsistent with the existence of an omnipotent and omni benevolent God. If we define ‘evil’ and ‘good’ as opposites, and determine that good will always try to destroy evil, we can conclude that an all-powerful and good being would get rid of all evil; since this is not the case, an omnipotent good being cannot exist.

 

Alvin Plantinga's response runs thusly:

 

A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all. Now God can create free creatures, but He can't cause or determine them to do only what is right. For if He does so, then they aren't significantly free after all; they do not do what is right freely. To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so. As it turned out, sadly enough, some of the free creatures God created went wrong in the exercise of their freedom; this is the source of moral evil. The fact that free creatures sometimes go wrong, however, counts neither against God's omnipotence nor against His goodness; for He could have forestalled the occurrence of moral evil only by removing the possibility of moral good.

 

To be clear, I don't accept this response for my own reasons (mainly because I am a compatibilist) but it is at least plausible. I would simply say that it is possible that God would wish to maximize good by utilizing evil, perhaps because the existence of evil (moral or otherwise) affects the 'meaningfulness' of good, or for some other reason.

 

One analogy I often use is drawn from Tolkien's Ainulindale.

 

The Great Music of the Ainur progresses thus: Ilúvatar introduces a First Theme to the choir of the Ainur and Melkor ‘spoils’ it, with some other Ainur starting to twist their music to Melkor's theme. (some of these Ainur may have become in the later histories characters like the Balrogs, Ungoliant and Sauron himself, but for others it could have been a temporary weakness.) Next, Ilúvatar imposes a Second Theme, and again Melkor corrupts it. Ilúvatar then proposes a Third Theme that Melkor attempts to corrupt through sheer force of volume of his own, but the power of the Third Theme is in the very subtlety that Melkor's lacks, and thus he never succeeds. In fact, the Music actually manages to incorporate some of Melkor's elements as a genuine improvement to itself. Still, despite neither Theme managing to gain the upper hand, so much power was poured by each side into their Music, that the halls of Ilúvatar shook, and The One decides to put an end to the strife with the conducting of “…one chord, deeper than the Abyss, higher than the Firmament, piercing as the light of the eye of Ilúvatar…” (Ibid.) After the Great Music stops, Ilúvatar promptly praises Melkor, chastises him, and then leaves the Ainur for time to their own thoughts.

 

Likewise, adding omniscience to the mix makes free will impossible, so that removes one "defense" for the Omni god.

 

You need to pursue that line of thought further, because I don't take it as a given that omniscience destroys free will, especially since we haven't yet defined what free will is.

 

Only by redefining the omni properties of god can the theist claim to have a god with omni properties, and that is fundamentally dishonest (on the part of the theist).

 

It really isn't. If you want to know what another party believes, you let them define their own terms. If you want to discuss what they believe, you must come to agreement on how to use certain terms, but to complain because someone defines something differently than you do, that they are being 'dishonest', is irrational.

[florduh]

A world containing creatures who are significantly free (and freely perform more good than evil actions) is more valuable, all else being equal, than a world containing no free creatures at all.

Why?

 

Really, I am so relieved I no longer feel obligated to engage in apologetic gymnastics.

[MereChristian]

Why?

 

A good question for Plantinga. I could speculate, but it's really irrelevant. Whether or not it's true, the conclusion follows from the premise; that is, it's logically valid if not logically sound. And the question is not whether what Christians assume about God or goodness or whatever is true, but whether those assumptions are, or can be, internally consistent.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

This would be my question, for Christian Philisophers

"To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so."

 

Isn't a deity supposed to be able to do anything. Then what is this he can't business. Why can't he change the rules and accomplish the same goals by different means?

 

Im am willing to grant Plantinga, premise, that evil is needed. But I would respond, why so much evil and suffering

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

Isn't a deity supposed to be able to do anything. Then what is this he can't business. Why can't he change the rules and accomplish the same goals by different means?

 

Im am willing to grant Plantinga, premise, that evil is needed. But I would respond, why so much evil and suffering

 

Apologetic is your answer. People decided to try to defend the things that are mysteries of a deity that is omnipotent and resolve them into solutions for Skeptics in evangelistic desire.

 

God did it just doesn't work.

 

I contend that though God is all knowing, powerful etc that He is God. The question is why would He have set everything up the way He set it up. Most Christian theology in itself discredits this idea, because it interjects Jesus, salvation, being saved, preaching, ministry.

 

Maybe God made everything, we became what we became, God developed a 'will' for our pathetic existences and we are waiting in nervousness and at the end some start thinking God isn't real at all.

 

Why can't God be all loving, powerful, knowing, omniscient and let everything be the way it is until He separates all of us into sections?

[florduh]

Why?

 

A good question for Plantinga. I could speculate, but it's really irrelevant. Whether or not it's true, the conclusion follows from the premise; that is, it's logically valid if not logically sound. And the question is not whether what Christians assume about God or goodness or whatever is true, but whether those assumptions are, or can be, internally consistent.

It's not irrelevant. It's a baseless assumption made in order to lead to a desired conclusion. Are Christians allowed to arbitrarily define their god to meet the needs of a specific argument? One might as well say that the creator valued brown eyes and therefore made more of them than he did blue or green. And what does "logically valid if not logically sound" mean? It sounds like a definition of bullshit.

 

Ah, yes. I miss apologetics!

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

 

 

Isn't a deity supposed to be able to do anything. Then what is this he can't business. Why can't he change the rules and accomplish the same goals by different means?

 

Im am willing to grant Plantinga, premise, that evil is needed. But I would respond, why so much evil and suffering

 

Apologetic is your answer. People decided to try to defend the things that are mysteries of a deity that is omnipotent and resolve them into solutions for Skeptics in evangelistic desire.

 

God did it just doesn't work.

 

I contend that though God is all knowing, powerful etc that He is God. The question is why would He have set everything up the way He set it up. Most Christian theology in itself discredits this idea, because it interjects Jesus, salvation, being saved, preaching, ministry.

 

Maybe God made everything, we became what we became, God developed a 'will' for our pathetic existences and we are waiting in nervousness and at the end some start thinking God isn't real at all.

 

Why can't God be all loving, powerful, knowing, omniscient and let everything be the way it is until He separates all of us into sections?

Then he is cruel to say the very least if your right. But, that doesn't answer the question. Why didn't he organize it differently. An all powerful, all seeing, all knowing god, that is rationale, would follow whatever path that is off the least resistance to accomplish any particular goal. It wouldn't be so messy and dare I say human.

 

"Maybe God made everything, we became what we became, God developed a 'will' for our pathetic existences and we are waiting in nervousness and at the end some start thinking God isn't real at all. "

 

Again he knows what we are gonna do, hence all seeing. So therefore he knows, how he is gonna react before he reacts,(which is a contradiction, in my opinion). Don't you think, he would make so he doesn't have to break his own rules. Or he can get what he wants without people burning. This is the all powerful god, that supposedly created the rules, that we exist, by. He is supposed, to be rationale, or at least, sensible.

 

There is also another problem, when you claim the omni's for a deity. You can't put a HE CAN'T on anything. Hence the problem, why is it done in such a wasteful and cruel manner, when the diety can make up anything the way he wants it. I think the quote from Gene Roddenberry does this concept justice,

 

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”

[Shyone]

 

Only by redefining the omni properties of god can the theist claim to have a god with omni properties, and that is fundamentally dishonest (on the part of the theist).

 

It really isn't. If you want to know what another party believes, you let them define their own terms. If you want to discuss what they believe, you must come to agreement on how to use certain terms, but to complain because someone defines something differently than you do, that they are being 'dishonest', is irrational.

I KNOW the terms. Have you forgotten where you are posting? Or did you not understand?

 

Omniscience - to know everything past, present and future in all places without exception. The future part is the part that allows for a plan; and for prophecy. If everything you are going to do, to think and be from the moment you are born to the day you die is known to a diety (from before the foundations of the earth) then you can't choose anything. Get it? Nothing! Omniscience necessitates predestination. No free will. If a diety can change it's mind, but didn't know it was going to change it's mind and the course of history, then it is not omniscient.

 

Omnipotence. To have the control over every subatomic particle in the universe, every atom, every mollecule, and every physical unit that can be described including humans. There is nothing that is not controlled by something that is truly all powerful. If it seems that the diety is doing nothing, that is a misperception. It means that the diety is doing what it seems not to be doing by controlling every little chess piece.

 

If these are the superpowers of a diety, then there is nothing that doesn't happen, from the beginning of the universe to the end, that isn't entirely under its control. Such a being would have no desire, wants, regrets, or sorrows, because everything would necessarily be exactly as that being sets it out to be. Any thought, which in an unchanging being would have also been unchanged, would not be subject to revision since God would, if omnipotent, have known that it would be revised and therefore that was part of the original plan. A diety with these properties could not second guess himself, fool himself, or alter the predestined future.

 

Only by denying that you mean omniscience, omnipotence, unchanging or omnibenevolence in the sense that defines these words can you even begin to claim that God fits these "powers."

 

IOW, you can't both claim that God is embued with these powers, and say He isn't embued with these powers. A being cannot stop being what it is without stopping being what it is - a god that is omnipotent, omniscient, unchanging and omnibenevolent.

 

Or the terms are meaningless. Which I would contend they are. And the description of God as having these properties renders God logically impossible.

 

Paul knew this. Maybe he didn't want to truly consider the implications, but he knew this, and so he wrote this:

 

Romans 8

29. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

30. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

 

And

 

Ephesians 1

4. For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love

5. he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will--

6. to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.

 

and whoever wrote Revelation realized it too.

 

Revelation 17

8. The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

[Shyone]

This would be my question, for Christian Philisophers

"To create creatures capable of moral good, therefore, He must create creatures capable of moral evil; and He can't give these creatures the freedom to perform evil and at the same time prevent them from doing so."

 

Isn't a deity supposed to be able to do anything. Then what is this he can't business. Why can't he change the rules and accomplish the same goals by different means?

 

Im am willing to grant Plantinga, premise, that evil is needed. But I would respond, why so much evil and suffering

This may seem confusing, but given the properties usually assigned to God and assuming they are permanent, God is limited in what he can do by those properties. He can't stop being God, or the word God (as an omni property diety) is meaningless.

 

An omniscient God can't be ignorant of anything. Anything at all. He can't look away, or ignore something.

 

An omnipotent God can't be weak or lose control or even give up control. If He is omnipotent, he is all powerful, meaning that everything is necessarily under His control.

 

An omnipresent God can't not be everywhere, or he isn't omnipresent.

 

If you assign these properties to God, He's stuck with them by definition.

 

Only if you say god is semi-impotent, semi-ignorant, and only present in few places (but not everywhere) can you then credit God with acting as though He didn't know everything, couldn't do everything, and wasn't everywhere.

[Franko47]

You know, when you think about it, God should either be completely involved in the affairs of humans (routine visits, countless miracles that are indisputable, even tips on how to cure cancer) or He should not be involved at all. Totally passive, just an observer.

 

Otherwise He's just meddling. Arbitrarily, and without consistency. I don't want a pony, I don't want a higher paying job, thanks, but I want folks in Africa and starving kids to get a break.

 

The moment you claim that "God" is involved in human affairs on a constant basis in this sporadic manner is when religion "blows it". Now God is either a Santa Claus or a racist, depending upon where in the world you are born, what kind of family you are born into and so on.

[MereChristian]

Why?

 

A good question for Plantinga. I could speculate, but it's really irrelevant. Whether or not it's true, the conclusion follows from the premise; that is, it's logically valid if not logically sound. And the question is not whether what Christians assume about God or goodness or whatever is true, but whether those assumptions are, or can be, internally consistent.

It's not irrelevant. It's a baseless assumption made in order to lead to a desired conclusion. Are Christians allowed to arbitrarily define their god to meet the needs of a specific argument? One might as well say that the creator valued brown eyes and therefore made more of them than he did blue or green. And what does "logically valid if not logically sound" mean? It sounds like a definition of bullshit.

 

Ah, yes. I miss apologetics!

 

It's a pretty basic definition in logic.

 

Validity: A logically valid argument is one in which the conclusion follows from the premises. An invalid argument is one in which the conclusion does not follow from the premises.

 

Soundness: A logically sound argument is one in which the argument is valid and all of the premises are true.

 

We can argue over premises. We can ask the questions, "Does God exist?" or "Would God really value the possibility of some good coupled with some evil over no good or evil at all?" But when we're doing so, we aren't asking whether an argument makes logical sense or not, we are asking if these things are objectively true. Naturally, Christians assume God exists, for possibly very bad reasons, but those reasons are extraneous. What we are discussing here is if their (our) God is contradictory by definition or not, and I maintain that he isn't. And all I will argue, at least here, is that the Christian God is logically valid, at least in my and Alvin Plantinga's conceptions of Him. That is what I took to be the purpose of this thread when Valk proposed it. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

[Abiyoyo]

 

 

There is also another problem, when you claim the omni's for a deity. You can't put a HE CAN'T on anything. Hence the problem, why is it done in such a wasteful and cruel manner, when the diety can make up anything the way he wants it. I think the quote from Gene Roddenberry does this concept justice,

 

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”

 

Hades is a god himself, of the underworld according to Greek gods. So, maybe this Hades is real, does rule the underworld, Earth. Maybe the Gnostics are right about the whole thing. Maybe Jesus is this complicated mechanism that spurred from a single thought, and we are made by the lesser God, with the mother's essence in us and Christ came and died to access realm of death so anyone that followed him would be part of the unmovable that follow his perfectness.

 

What do you want to hear?

 

You say, if God was all everything then what about this:

 

1) he's revolting

2) he's incoherent

3) designed us to sin, and then said don't sin

4) created evil

5) doesn't do what we define as omniscient

6) doesn't change the way the world works

7) could've organized the world better

8) he reacts before he reacts

9) breaks his own rules

10) let people burn in hell

11) not sensible or rational

 

 

That's many questions. I will give you the Apologetic answers

1) He is not revolting, He sent His Son to redeem the world, to justify, to declare the Lord's, give hope to those that were lost, to show the truth and perfectness of the God of Israel. Any thing that was proclaimed as revolting before was now replaced with spiritual bliss and grace.

 

2)He is not incoherent because his Son lives within many today that spread His Word and give hope to any and all that need it. He is active and coherent.

 

3) 'Sin shall lie at your door ready to consume you, but you shall rule over it' (Gen)

 

4) God didn't create evil, He created choice. We choose to disobey the Lord and in return it make evil to the degree in which is lies today. Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

5) 'His paths are not our paths, his ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts' (Isa)

 

6) Zec 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. By Jesus Christ He has changed the world where people could have a King to look toward, a high priest, a leader to lead them into God's righteousness.

 

7) He organized it very well. Since there is good and evil, there has to division. Hence, Jesus Christ showing the good way.

 

8) He reacted before he reacted and He also ordained things to happen at a certain time according to His perfect plan.

 

9) He gives and takes away. He holds the keys to death and life. The one who holds the key is not trespassing?

 

10) People will choose there desires, they will decide who they want to follow, 'For me and my house, we shall serve the Lord'. God is holy (Peter) and God will dwell in righteousness (Gen). Evil within the confines of Earth are not inhabitant of God since God is Holy. Disobedience is a sin to God in the immortal punishable by separation (Gen). If we were separated merely because we disobeyed, how much more would we be separated for rejection? 'I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

 

11) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake Gen 18:32. Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. (Sensible?)

[MereChristian]

Omniscience - to know everything past, present and future in all places without exception. The future part is the part that allows for a plan; and for prophecy. If everything you are going to do, to think and be from the moment you are born to the day you die is known to a diety (from before the foundations of the earth) then you can't choose anything. Get it? Nothing! Omniscience necessitates predestination. No free will. If a diety can change it's mind, but didn't know it was going to change it's mind and the course of history, then it is not omniscient.

 

John Wesley would disagree with you there, but it's enough to say that no, omniscience does not necessitate predestination (though I do happen to hold to predestination), nor does predestination nix free will.

 

Omniscience doesn't immediately nix free will (which we still haven't defined), because knowledge is not the same as control. I can know that twenty years from now Joe Sixpack will get in a barfight and lose half his teeth; that doesn't mean twenty years from now Joe Sixpack will be unable to do so of his own free will. Neither I, nor timeless fate compelled him to get into a barfight. If we accept that God is in some way outside, or not constrained by time (which most Christians do) then omniscience truly becomes irrelevant to predestination, because the result of his foreknowledege is not compulsion but simply a different way of viewing existence. Within existence, all free choices can be accounted for in their proper place; it is just that God is seeing them all in, for lack of a better term, what we might call a single eternal Now. Anyway, until we agree on a definition of free will arguments that purport to nix it will be meaningless. I propose we consider it as the conditional ability to choose between options. Under this definition, predestination (which is to say, determinism) and free will would be compatible.

 

Omnipotence. To have the control over every subatomic particle in the universe, every atom, every mollecule, and every physical unit that can be described including humans. There is nothing that is not controlled by something that is truly all powerful. If it seems that the diety is doing nothing, that is a misperception. It means that the diety is doing what it seems not to be doing by controlling every little chess piece.

 

I think you have phrased the bolded part wrongly. Rather than say, "there is nothing that is not controlled," say rather, "there is nothing that cannot be controlled." The next assertion that even if the deity (note spelling) seems to be doing nothing (though to whom, I can only guess), he is still doing something, is your assertion and not the universally Christian one. I'm not satisfied that it logically follows from omnipotence, though I will say that personally I agree with it.

 

If these are the superpowers of a diety, then there is nothing that doesn't happen, from the beginning of the universe to the end, that isn't entirely under its control. Such a being would have no desire, wants, regrets, or sorrows, because everything would necessarily be exactly as that being sets it out to be. Any thought, which in an unchanging being would have also been unchanged, would not be subject to revision since God would, if omnipotent, have known that it would be revised and therefore that was part of the original plan. A diety with these properties could not second guess himself, fool himself, or alter the predestined future.

 

Only by denying that you mean omniscience, omnipotence, unchanging or omnibenevolence in the sense that defines these words can you even begin to claim that God fits these "powers."

 

Well, yes, I do deny it, because unlike you I make a distinction between the capacity of an individual and his activity. God has the capacity to control every particle in the universe; it does not logically follow that he must be doing so. I'll grant your earlier point that in a way even his inaction is a decision, or a control - this we in the Calvinoid camp sometimes call his permissive will. But inaction, even if it plays in his favour, is still inaction.

[florduh]

And all I will argue, at least here, is that the Christian God is logically valid, at least in my and Alvin Plantinga's conceptions of Him.

Okay, then. An abstract exercise in logic, with no real purpose other than gamesmanship. My conception of god is the Flying Spaghetti Monster and I can make a logical argument from that premise that he must exist. Of course there's no point to such an endeavor so I shall refrain. Have fun.

[Shyone]

Well, yes, I do deny it, because unlike you I make a distinction between the capacity of an individual and his activity. God has the capacity to control every particle in the universe; it does not logically follow that he must be doing so. I'll grant your earlier point that in a way even his inaction is a decision, or a control - this we in the Calvinoid camp sometimes call his permissive will. But inaction, even if it plays in his favour, is still inaction.

You still don't get it.

 

I don't think you ever will.

 

If God knows that in 30 days you will turn left on a gravel road and a piece of gravel will be thrown 10 feet to the left and in 100 years a man will step on that piece of gravel and stumble causing his rifle to fire into the air and 1 mile away a young boy will be struck in the head and die - THAT is omniscience.

 

Everything!

 

Forget free will. There is no will at all if everything is planned out completely without any nanosecond of a life unknown in advance. The future already has happened. It exists as God's omniscient mind knows it will be. It cannot be changed - even by God because to be omniscient God must also know what He will do, and he cannot change his mind. If God could change his mind, then he isn't omniscient because he not only didn't know He would change his mind, He didn't know shit about any consequence of whatever he would do!

 

Now are you catching on?

 

Same with Omnipotence. I can't say it clearer than I did above. You can't travel from New York to San Francisco without your head. God can't forsake omnipotence - the control over everything - and still be God if, as you claim, God is omnipotent.

 

Unless, of course, you were to admit that God is not omniscient, omnipotent, etc.

 

There is no "could" for omnipotence. There is only "is". It is the way it is, and it could not be any other way. And that is the omnipotent God's weakness.

 

P.S. There is no inaction. It is not consistent with omnipotence. Think, man, think! Omnipotence is all controlling, not a matter of choice. That which is undone can only seem undone but it is as God's omnipotent power would have it be. It could not be any other way.

[MereChristian]

The above stuff.

 

Well, then I guess that's that.

 

See ya 'round.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

 

 

There is also another problem, when you claim the omni's for a deity. You can't put a HE CAN'T on anything. Hence the problem, why is it done in such a wasteful and cruel manner, when the diety can make up anything the way he wants it. I think the quote from Gene Roddenberry does this concept justice,

 

“We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes.”

 

Hades is a god himself, of the underworld according to Greek gods. So, maybe this Hades is real, does rule the underworld, Earth. Maybe the Gnostics are right about the whole thing. Maybe Jesus is this complicated mechanism that spurred from a single thought, and we are made by the lesser God, with the mother's essence in us and Christ came and died to access realm of death so anyone that followed him would be part of the unmovable that follow his perfectness.

 

What do you want to hear?

 

You say, if God was all everything then what about this:

 

1) he's revolting

2) he's incoherent

3) designed us to sin, and then said don't sin

4) created evil

5) doesn't do what we define as omniscient

6) doesn't change the way the world works

7) could've organized the world better

8) he reacts before he reacts

9) breaks his own rules

10) let people burn in hell

11) not sensible or rational

 

 

That's many questions. I will give you the Apologetic answers

1) He is not revolting, He sent His Son to redeem the world, to justify, to declare the Lord's, give hope to those that were lost, to show the truth and perfectness of the God of Israel. Any thing that was proclaimed as revolting before was now replaced with spiritual bliss and grace.

 

2)He is not incoherent because his Son lives within many today that spread His Word and give hope to any and all that need it. He is active and coherent.

 

3) 'Sin shall lie at your door ready to consume you, but you shall rule over it' (Gen)

 

4) God didn't create evil, He created choice. We choose to disobey the Lord and in return it make evil to the degree in which is lies today. Ro 5:19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

 

5) 'His paths are not our paths, his ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are not our thoughts' (Isa)

 

6) Zec 10:8 I will hiss for them, and gather them; for I have redeemed them: and they shall increase as they have increased. By Jesus Christ He has changed the world where people could have a King to look toward, a high priest, a leader to lead them into God's righteousness.

 

7) He organized it very well. Since there is good and evil, there has to division. Hence, Jesus Christ showing the good way.

 

8) He reacted before he reacted and He also ordained things to happen at a certain time according to His perfect plan.

 

9) He gives and takes away. He holds the keys to death and life. The one who holds the key is not trespassing?

 

10) People will choose there desires, they will decide who they want to follow, 'For me and my house, we shall serve the Lord'. God is holy (Peter) and God will dwell in righteousness (Gen). Evil within the confines of Earth are not inhabitant of God since God is Holy. Disobedience is a sin to God in the immortal punishable by separation (Gen). If we were separated merely because we disobeyed, how much more would we be separated for rejection? 'I am the Light of the world; he who follows Me will not walk in the darkness, but will have the Light of life."

 

11) And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten’s sake Gen 18:32. Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Lu 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance. (Sensible?)

1)Why is this necessary when, with a all powerful and all knowing and all seeing deity, can make plans that we can't really (our brains should be limited in creating, compared to the "divine") conceive can be made, to accomplish the same goals. Unless you can defeat this argument, the cruel comment stands.

2) A inconsistent personality/plan can have consistent parts. So while yes, this would be true, doesn't explain every single, flaw. So then your god is 1 for whatever number you want to put as a denominator on being consistent and logical, and non contradictory.

3)Nothing was around, but God right, before everything began. Then why not destroy sin since sin is evil. He created us with the ability to sin, when we could easily with his divine powers, have are cake and eat it to, and be good always and have free will.

4)Yes he did, if he created everything. Then what created evil, then, that God couldn't stop. Again bad and irrational, contradictory, and inconsistent planning, and it doesn't really work, with his personality which is said to not be able to be in the same presence as sin( yet the devil can walk into his office(according to job) and talk shit).

5)Well that is a great way to cover your ass and your stupidity saying "I make no sense to you, flock" It also a great excuse for bad planning, and irrationality. Remember the book was written by human beings.

6)People follow other religions, and feel unified by them, so your point?

7)This depends, on the rest of your arguments, being valid so I don't have much to say on this one. Again can accomplish goals way better, and can do all of this without the need of people going to hell.

8)Not sure what your trying to prove on this either. Also depends on the rest of your arguments being true.

9) You are assuming consistency, to say this, so argument fails.

10) If evil existed before the devil, otherwise the devil could not become evil. Then where was evil, undoubtedly in the presence of God, because that is the only place in town, before Genesis.

11)A crazy person, can do the occasional sensible deed, and still be insane.

 

You would have to say God, is human, to explain, the contradictory and inconsistent tactics. Because based on my understanding, all this is very human.

[Abiyoyo]

and be good always and have free will.

 

 

We can't be good always(Rom), holy as God would consider Holy (remember, disobeying God is not Holy, A&E) and still have freewill. But, if we are refined, tried, through our inhabitant on the Earth, then when we die with God, we are fit to be Holy in a world with no pain, troubles, people judging, tempting(remember, Satan is separated as well, and Christ is ruling our dominion)

 

Zec 13:9

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

[Kathlene]

Is the christian God logical? No, possibly not. Why? because His thoughts and Ways are far higher than our ways. Yeah, typical christian response.. I know. I think it is true though. If you believe that God is the creator, and we the created, then of course His wisdom and ways are going to be different to ours. He is the one above, we below. He wants to see people come to Him in faith, and when they do, He goes about refining them by life's experiences and other people to mold them and shape them into people more like His son Jesus. How does he do that? Well certainly not by any logical way that I can see. He uses people that aggravate the living daylights out of me to shape me to have more patience, more kindness, more love, even when I dont want to!! He uses pain and suffering to shape us to trust more in Him in those times. To draw closer to Him. No, I did NOT say he was the cause of pain and suffering in our lives. He uses circumstances around us to climb those mountains and at the top we look down and suddenly realise, hey, I am closer to God, I have more maturity, my heart is healed of certain things, I can do far more things than I give myself credit for.

 

How does a diamond become a diamond? In the darkest of darkest places, it becomes that way through and because of whatever the hell the process is.

 

How does an oyster produce a magnificent pearl? through sand aggravating it..

Like Abiyoyo has already said, we go through a refining process. No-one ever said it was meant to be easy, or a walk in the park. Growing character is always a hard and difficult thing. Why? because it is when you have to lay down yourself..your sinful parts that you want to cling to and hold onto because you think it is your right to do so...and then it is only when you have truly done that, can you find freedom.

 

Is that logical? No. Is that what we would choose if we were God and running the universe? No. Why? Because we always want to run AWAY from pain, struggles, giving up our selves, and we think God should think and do the same. When he doesnt we cry UNFAIR!!

Back to my first point. Gods ways are higher than ours. Therefore, we can never reconcile our brain with what goes on in the world. My only advice for when you are in the midst of darkness and a pain so consuming it takes your breath away, is to just trust in God. It has worked for me in my life. When I came out the other side, I had become a far stronger person, a new person, a shaped and worked over person. I was not the same person as I was going in and through it. I had come to the other side losing me, laying down my rights to answers, demanding answers, and eventually just trusting God. Trusting that whatever was going on was for my good, even when I couldn't SEE it.

[florduh]

His thoughts and Ways are far higher than our ways.

I have no problem with believers saying this. I would expect nothing less, as that statement actually makes sense (in its context).

 

After all, what's the point of having a god at all if he doesn't possess unimaginably superior and ineffable qualities. Wouldn't be much of a deity if he was just like us.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

and be good always and have free will.

 

 

We can't be good always(Rom), holy as God would consider Holy (remember, disobeying God is not Holy, A&E) and still have freewill. But, if we are refined, tried, through our inhabitant on the Earth, then when we die with God, we are fit to be Holy in a world with no pain, troubles, people judging, tempting(remember, Satan is separated as well, and Christ is ruling our dominion)

 

Zec 13:9

And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.

 

Well then we are Borg in heaven then. Then why not make, us drones, then, and subvert the whole problem.

If you can't always be good, and have free will, then I win. And Yahweh is a evil monster. Putting us through misery to then be drones, and that is when we could be drones in the first place. And correct me if I'm wrong, philosophically speaking you can't have a evil number one deity.

[Guest Valkyrie0010]

Is the christian God logical? No, possibly not. Why? because His thoughts and Ways are far higher than our ways. Yeah, typical christian response.. I know. I think it is true though. If you believe that God is the creator, and we the created, then of course His wisdom and ways are going to be different to ours. He is the one above, we below. He wants to see people come to Him in faith, and when they do, He goes about refining them by life's experiences and other people to mold them and shape them into people more like His son Jesus. How does he do that? Well certainly not by any logical way that I can see. He uses people that aggravate the living daylights out of me to shape me to have more patience, more kindness, more love, even when I dont want to!! He uses pain and suffering to shape us to trust more in Him in those times. To draw closer to Him. No, I did NOT say he was the cause of pain and suffering in our lives. He uses circumstances around us to climb those mountains and at the top we look down and suddenly realise, hey, I am closer to God, I have more maturity, my heart is healed of certain things, I can do far more things than I give myself credit for.

 

How does a diamond become a diamond? In the darkest of darkest places, it becomes that way through and because of whatever the hell the process is.

 

How does an oyster produce a magnificent pearl? through sand aggravating it..

Like Abiyoyo has already said, we go through a refining process. No-one ever said it was meant to be easy, or a walk in the park. Growing character is always a hard and difficult thing. Why? because it is when you have to lay down yourself..your sinful parts that you want to cling to and hold onto because you think it is your right to do so...and then it is only when you have truly done that, can you find freedom.

 

Is that logical? No. Is that what we would choose if we were God and running the universe? No. Why? Because we always want to run AWAY from pain, struggles, giving up our selves, and we think God should think and do the same. When he doesnt we cry UNFAIR!!

Back to my first point. Gods ways are higher than ours. Therefore, we can never reconcile our brain with what goes on in the world. My only advice for when you are in the midst of darkness and a pain so consuming it takes your breath away, is to just trust in God. It has worked for me in my life. When I came out the other side, I had become a far stronger person, a new person, a shaped and worked over person. I was not the same person as I was going in and through it. I had come to the other side losing me, laying down my rights to answers, demanding answers, and eventually just trusting God. Trusting that whatever was going on was for my good, even when I couldn't SEE it.

Shouldn't is still be sensible to us. Remember we are made in the image and likeness of god, in your theology, so we should have some sense, at the very least of how a deity would work.