I feel like such a coward..

[necrosmith]

So there I am attending a surprise birthday party for a fundy friend of mine. During the festivities we are making small talk and the question comes up, so where do you go to church? This question, of course, was asked in front of everyone in the room by the meanest looking inquisition type person there.

 

I have not come out to anyone from my ex-fundy circle yet, so I wasn't sure exactly how to handle this question. In a split second, I think I must have had about a billion things go through my mind.

 

I very quickly decided against coming out at that moment, as it didn't feel right. So, I basically lied and told them I was still going to my old church. I then quickly tried to change the subject.

 

Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was the right thing to do, but I feel like such a coward. Was I a coward? Did I sell out to myself?

 

After thinking about it more, I'm thinking that it would not have been the appropriate time to do so. Had I come out at that time, the focus would have entirely shifted to me and away from the celebration of my friend's birthday. Further, it would have been like 40 on 1 type situation with very hostile Christians there. The group included many older, retired pastors.

 

As much as I wanted to stay true to myself and boldy go forward and carry the banner for my Apostasy, I just couldn't go through with it. The timing didn't feel right, and it just seemed easier to lie than to take a stand in such a hostile environment. Again, in retrospect, it seemed like it would have been totally inappropriate as well.

 

So what do you think? Did I make a wise decision to be discreet and tactful, or was I just being a coward?

 

How are the rest of you handling situations like that?

 

(On a side note - during the obligatory prayer to thank Jesus for being so good to us, all I could think about was where the fuck was Jesus when those thousands of people were drowning in NO? Seems funny how Jesus is always so very good to the well off white folks. Assholes!)

[Saviourmachine]

I don't talk about beliefs with persons that are too fundy in my opinion, or too stupid, or too irritating, or too old (my grandparents e.g.). However, I'm pretty always just telling what I think, and how I believe. If someone disagrees with me, he/she does have the time to discuss it with me. If he/she isn't close enough with me to see my gradually change, it doesn't interest me if he/she will be suprised by my sudden change.

But I'm grown up now, when I was 13-14 I didn't talk about everything I thought. I just didn't think about the possibility that I wouldn't be banned from my family, but that they would respect my choice. That's what they do by now. I think it depends on age.

[thomas]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

As an ex-christian your are not obligated to witness your non faith here and there and everywhere. You have the freedom to do as you find it most appropriate.

 

If it didn't seem right for you to witness at thath birthday party, then just fine.

[narcissist]

I think you did the right thing. That wasn't cowardly act. That was a very diplomatic act. It was someone else's party. Why spoil it by triggering an argument of little relevance to the vibe of a birthday party?

 

And I seriously doubt any God is going to tut-tut you in the afterlife for telling a porky-pie to keep the peace.

[Amethyst]

I think you did the right thing. I was tempted to tell some of the idiots at my parents' friends' anniversary party this summer, but decided not to for the same reason. Why spoil someone else's fun?

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

I think you did the right thing.  That wasn't cowardly act.  That was a very diplomatic act.  It was someone else's party.  Why spoil it by triggering an argument of little relevance to the vibe of a birthday party?

 

I don't think you did anything wrong. I did something similar at my grandmother's funeral.

 

Everyone there was fundamentalist Southern Baptist. Anytime my church attendance came up during small talk I just diverted the subject in some way. I didn't think my grandmother's funeral was the place for me to make an announcement about my atheism. I would have drawn the attention away from her life and put the spotlight on me.

 

If anyone's to blame in your situation it's the grand inquisitor who asked the question. What was their motive, I wonder, if not to put people on the spot for attending the "wrong" church, or none at all.

[JeffXL]

There is no reason to feel guilt-- you are under no obligation to them whatsoever. What a nice way for that Jesus enforcer to spoil a festive time.

 

I don't think you did anything wrong. I did something similar at my grandmother's funeral.

 

TexasFreeThinker, that was very gracious of you. Fundies always draw attention to themselves and their god at important events. They are forever hijacking funerals, not caring a bit about the deceased. Disgusting.

 

I will eventually have to state my unbelief to my fundy neighbors. If they want to mention Jesus or say "god bless you," that is their right. If they ask me point blank what church I attend or what I believe, it will come out. And it's a bit unsettling. How will they react?

[Thurisaz]

How are the rest of you handling situations like that?

 

I don't rub my enmity towards the death cult under everyone's nose, but if someone starts discussing religion with me, I have no fear to openly tell him that I consider christianity to be bullcrap.

 

But then, lift any stone and you will not find a braindead fundie under it, here in Germany... so maybe a comparison is just a little bit unfair

[Ouroboros]

I have not come out to anyone from my ex-fundy circle yet, so I wasn't sure exactly how to handle this question.  In a split second, I think I must have had about a billion things go through my mind.

Scary situation. But you have to chose the right time and moment to tell your friends, not them. It have to stay in your control, so a little lie really doesn't matter. That's the good thing now, you're not going to hell because of a lie anymore...

 

I very quickly decided against coming out at that moment, as it didn't feel right.  So, I basically lied and told them I was still going to my old church.  I then quickly tried  to change the subject.

I probably had done something similar, or just told them that it was my own business. Or just saying, there's no good church to go to anymore, all of them are full of hypocrites, and I'm the only True Christian™ left in the world...

 

Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was the right thing to do, but I feel like such a coward.  Was I a coward?  Did I sell out to myself?

Uh, uh, you have a conscious... maybe it's the Holy Spook talking to you... I think you can let it go, and like I said, it should be YOU who decide when to tell your friends about your de-conversion, not their time.

 

After thinking about it more, I'm thinking that it would not have been the appropriate time to do so.  Had I come out at that time, the focus would have entirely shifted to me and away from the celebration of my friend's birthday.  Further, it would have been like 40 on 1 type situation with very hostile Christians there.  The group included many older, retired pastors.

Exactly. In a hostile situation you just have to play smart.

 

As much as I wanted to stay true to myself and boldy go forward and carry the banner for my Apostasy, I just couldn't go through with it.  The timing didn't feel right, and it just seemed easier to lie than to take a stand in such a hostile environment.  Again, in retrospect, it seemed like it would have been totally inappropriate as well.

You're right.

 

So what do you think?  Did I make a wise decision to be discreet and tactful, or was I just being a coward?

I think it was the best decision.

 

How are the rest of you handling situations like that?

Only two of my siblings know my apostacy, and I lied to the rest of my family. Because I chose the time when to talk to my two brothers, and I've decided to not tell the others yet, not until the right time.

 

So I didn't chicken out on two of my siblings, but it was because I could tell they were on a level that I could discuss and explain things to them. The others in my family are not on a level to comprehend my explanations one single bit, so I have no reason to let them know yet.

 

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Fundies always draw attention to themselves and their god at important events.  They are forever hijacking funerals, not caring a bit about the deceased.  Disgusting.

You got that right.

 

At this same funeral, the pastor of my grandmother's church who was giving the service at a funeral home preached a full sermon and asked for people to accept jesus as their savior AT THE FUNERAL. I couldn't believe it.

[fallenleaf]

I can't play arm-chair quarterback here. It is easy to say, in retrospect and without understanding the situation, what you would have done. I choose to react to each situation as it comes. At different times I have used:

 

"I don't go to church right now."

-- Mostly to the point but also provides an escape so they can believe as they want if they don't ask.

"I don't have a church at the moment."

-- Same as the above but gives an indication that I am not opposed to it.

"I used to attend Praise Assembly."

-- complete diversion which doesn't answer the question at all but often is enough.

 

Or sometimes I lie... and sometimes I just say I don't believe. It really depends. I have gotten very good at saying just enough to be open but also enough to be vague so people could assume what they wanted.

 

[spamandham]

During the festivities we are making small talk and the question comes up, so where do you go to church?  This question, of course, was asked in front of everyone in the room by the meanest looking inquisition type person there.

 

You were intentionally cornered by this individual and your fight-or-flight instinct was activated. You should not feel the least bit bad about lying to someone who does that to you.

 

Honesty is nice and all, but let's not obsess over it. There are times when the lesser consequence comes from lying, and it sounds like this was one of those times.

[Ms. K]

I don't have a problem with what you said.

 

I am no longer a Christian myself, and I have not "come out" to my in-laws.

 

I never, ever will, either. They're obnoxiously fundie, and if you don't think the way they do about EVERYTHING, you are going to hell.

 

So, why the hell should I have to deal with a ration of shit from them because they think they're soooooo much better than me? My own husband understands why I am no longer a Christian, and THEY RAISED HIM. They tried making a good little fundie out of him, and that didn't work. So, if I come out, and he supports me, well, automatically, it's all MY fault that he's not a Good True Christian and isn't stoning me for my apostasy.

 

When you are cornered by someone who approaches you not with an attitude of making small talk, but giving you the attitude of, "if you're not with us, you're against us, and if you're against us, there's gonna be a lynching!", why the hell should you give them an inch?

 

So, it's okay. Don't sweat it. No big deal. You did the right thing for you to do in that situation. Yes, you lied, but then, so do they. I haven't met a Christian who doesn't think lying for the Lord isn't okay. It's okay if you're lying for Jesus, you know....so you just turned the tables, and they'll never know it.

[dogmatically_challenged]

Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was the right thing to do, but I feel like such a coward. Was I a coward? Did I sell out to myself?

 

It was the right thing to do given the situation. Thats my opinion. Some fundies are some what reasonable and some are not and in this situation your friends Birthday should take precedence. MHO.

 

You are a good friend.

[Guest aexapo]

I have not come out to anyone from my ex-fundy circle yet, so I wasn't sure exactly how to handle this question.  In a split second, I think I must have had about a billion things go through my mind.

 

I very quickly decided against coming out at that moment, as it didn't feel right. . .

 

Looking back, I'm pretty sure it was the right thing to do, but I feel like such a coward.  Was I a coward?  Did I sell out to myself?

 

So what do you think?  Did I make a wise decision to be discreet and tactful, or was I just being a coward?

 

How are the rest of you handling situations like that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

My own situation was a bit different, but perhaps it can help. I "came out" religiously very slowly -- starting with the lady who used to cut my hair. She nearly dropped her scissors.

 

I don't throw it in people's faces, but I don't shy away when asked. I may speak to someone at work for months and they'll never know until they ask me the very same question. I answer plainly and without drama (and for me, THAT's hard!) "I'm an atheist." And I leave it at that. I respect their decisions as long as the same goes for me -- I only push it when I'm pushed, and most that know me have long given up.

 

My divorce from Christianity was a marvelous moment of serendipity for me -- it came during a personal existential crisis (I was trying to reconcile my faith with the fact that I was homosexual). I did the math, and found out that the problem was the Jesus stuff, and not with me.

 

Reason I mentioned all that -- I realized rather quickly that EITHER reason was going to make my "fundy-costal" social group drop me like toilet paper. I left them before they had the chance to snub me. It was VERY difficult for me -- I was in the church music program, was involved in a couple of upcoming weddings, and for a short time prior, had led the church choir. I had a very tight social group at church -- but they included a preacher's kid, and others in the church VIP "clique." I knew what they would do -- and had seen it done before. I wrote my pastor a letter explaining my "spiritual" problem, and let the church rumor mill fill in the other details.

 

All those dear friends of mine -- not a single word from any of them. I caught up with one years later . . . we had both moved to the same side of Houston. We emailed back and forth for a short time, but that stopped quickly when she deduced that I was "unretrievable" from the twin forces of Atheism and the gay demon.

 

Back to you . . .

You were not a coward, but that's not really your biggest problem. Depending on the "severity" of their fundamentalism, you could be seriously deluding yourself to think you can maintain a friendship with these people once they find out about your lack of faith -- and believe me, they will find out.

 

Take the high road, tell the few of them with "diarrhea of the mouth" (to insure that it spreads quickly), and KNOW with the certainty of gravity that they will no longer be your friends. You cut the cord, though -- don't play into scenarios that leave you a rag doll in their games of condemnation, damnation, etc.

 

Give yourself a Jesus enema . . . get rid of their shit. Don't be their turd.

[Guest aexapo]

Honesty is nice and all, but let's not obsess over it.  There are times when the lesser consequence comes from lying, and it sounds like this was one of those times.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Personally, I draw the line of white lies and fibbing when it comes to who I am as a person. The way I avoid confrontations with uber-Christians, Republicans, and the gays-are-evil crowd is by not arguing, or even discussing those things with them. But I never, EVER want anyone to mistake me for what they are -- especially people who are supposedly near and dear to me. The absolute WORST thing that could happen is that I could die, and these poor ignorant people would write in my memorium "He was a good, Godly, Christian man."

 

That ain't a' gonna happen!

 

I'm not an "in-your-facer," but for those people who refuse to associate with people who don't fit into their political, religious, or social criteria -- I believe they have a right to know who I am.

 

Believe me, it saves stamps at Christmas time!

[dogmatically_challenged]

Personally, I draw the line of white lies and fibbing when it comes to who I am as a person.  The way I avoid confrontations with uber-Christians, Republicans, and the gays-are-evil crowd is by not arguing, or even discussing those things with them.  But I never, EVER want anyone to mistake me for what they are -- especially people who are supposedly near and dear to me.  The absolute WORST thing that could happen is that I could die, and these poor ignorant people would write in my memorium "He was a good, Godly, Christian man."

 

That ain't a' gonna happen!

 

I'm not an "in-your-facer," but for those people who refuse to associate with people who don't fit into their political, religious, or social criteria -- I believe they have a right to know who I am.

 

Believe me, it saves stamps at Christmas time!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That one person who asked what church is not a friend and probably is not reasonable.

 

On a day that is not my friends Birthday I would make it crystal clear that I am not a Christian to my Christian friends.

 

I think xians need to get used to the fact that homosexuals and heathens can be decent people if we want to see the fear diminsh in xians in general. Being a out in the open heathen hepls in that.

 

On a birthday I'd postpone giving an answer to tha question and might even lie in the same way. However, I'd make it crystal clear to my friends later that I'm an apostate. I believe that it is a fake friendship if you have to live a lie with your friends.

[Max]

I, too, generally avoid the issue. Xtians, especially fundies, are completely irrational on this subject. They're sure that athiests are out to get them, and that it's impossible for a person to not worship something. There's no sense in wasting your time trying to explain yourself - they've already decided not to listen. If I'm asked a direct question, I usually mumble something about being brought up Baptist, and no one ever seems to notice that doesn't say anything about what I believe.

 

Besides, the contents of your head and heart are your most sacred of personal property, and you have no obligation to share them with anyone.

 

IMHO, athiests are possibly the last truly unrepresented, oppressed minority in this country. No one has any idea how many of us there might be, becase we're all afraid to come out.

[necrosmith]

Thanks all for the words. They are encouraging and also give me something to think about.

[Saviourmachine]

IMHO, athiests are possibly the last truly unrepresented, oppressed minority in this country.  No one has any idea how many of us there might be, becase we're all afraid to come out.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very weird this. It's not about being allowed to lie. Of course everyone is when it serves him/her. A little bit more straight-in-your-face would help the world further I think. That's what you're all are doing on this forum so often. How can you be so open - even agressive/hostile to xians overhere - and so cowardly in the real world? Sorry, I'm generalizing of course. But that's how it appears to me now. Are you afraid to get beaten? Or just don't want to discuss with foolish people? Why are they your friends? I don't get it.

[LloydDobler]

ROFL I'm sorry but all I can think of in this situation is:

 

'Before the cock crows, you will deny denying christ THREE TIMES!'

 

No worries man, you're under no obligation to open yourself up for what would be a major attack on you in that environment.

[Max]

How can you be so open - even agressive/hostile to xians overhere - and so cowardly in the real world? Sorry, I'm generalizing of course. But that's how it appears to me now. Are you afraid to get beaten? Or just don't want to discuss with foolish people? Why are they your friends?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good point. As for myself, I never argue religion with people. I respect everyone's right to their beliefs, I just wish they'd respect mine. I've been made skiddish by my background, having listened to many a preacher wail about how athiests were trying to destroy religion, keep them from praying, etc., you know...

 

With those whose opinions don't matter to me, I just don't want to get into that argument. With those who are friends, I know they wouldn't give me that lecture, but they'd be upset or feel the need to pray for me. There's just no up side to the whole thing.

[white_raven23]

The need for "confession" runs deep......

 

Necrosmith. I think you did fine. You were very suddenly confronted in a "hot" room by an intrusive close-minded twit. We've all been there, and we've all felt the deep frustration of having "lied" or "waffled" about where we stood.

It's a holdover from your old faith.

We were all taught to never deny our christianity, well, old habits and belief structures easily graft themselves (where they can) into your new belief structure. So instead of feeling deep shame for publically denying Christ.....

Those feelings are grafted to your new beliefs instead, whether necessary or not.

 

Having had the experience now....don't worry, you will be better prepared for the next time. Next time YOU will have more personal control over how you face that kind of inquiry.

 

In a "hot" room where you don't want to confront...."I'm between churches at the moment." works just fine. My parents have been "between churches" for almost ten years, and they still claim faith.

[Guest aexapo]

Very weird this. It's not about being allowed to lie. Of course everyone is when it serves him/her. A little bit more straight-in-your-face would help the world further I think. That's what you're all are doing on this forum so often. How can you be so open - even agressive/hostile to xians overhere - and so cowardly in the real world? Sorry, I'm generalizing of course. But that's how it appears to me now. Are you afraid to get beaten? Or just don't want to discuss with foolish people? Why are they your friends? I don't get it. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

For me, when you've already had to "come out" about one thing, it doesn't seem so hard the next time. I live in the heart of the Bible belt, and have good working relationships with plenty of Bible thumping Christians and Fox-watchers (usually, these are the same people, but not necessarily). I don't wear buttons, flags or rainbows, but I don't hide from direct questions.

 

Haven't been lynched yet, and after the initial shock from a few, they recognize me as "one of those GOOD atheists," or "one of those GOOD gays." You know, as opposed to all the BAD ones they talk about on CBN. Hey, people can grow.

[Guest aexapo]

In a "hot" room where you don't want to confront...."I'm between churches at the moment." works just fine. My parents have been "between churches" for almost ten years, and they still claim faith. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm respectful, but I'm not that nice.

 

I had to bite my tongue the other day -- several were talking about church and their faith, and the "sarcasm-lightly-disguised-as-complimentary-chit-chat" nearly fell out of my mouth.

 

"You know, if I HAD to choose a church, I'd probably pick one of those Catholic churches. You know, the ones with the statues and that incense stuff? I think that is sooooo cool! Especially that music . . . I think I have one of their CDs . . ."

 

I was even chewing gum; but the highlights have grown out, and I'm not that good of an actor -- so it wasn't said.