Angel Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I had a discussion the other day with a christian that believed that we ALL deserve what New Orleans got, because we are all worthy of it, we are all sinners, no one innocent...that it was a punishment sent from on high. I am wondering: 1. Do you feel it was a punishment on an "unholy" city? 2. Do you believe we all deserve what they got because we are all sinners? I certainly hope that not ALL of the christians out there believe this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Checkmate Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 And IF Christians claim that this is "justified punishment" from their oh-so-loving "God", meted out for OUR wickedness, then that begs the question: Why did "God" punish "Jesus" for our sins? If sinners deserve continuous punishments for OUR continuous "sinfulness", then what was the point of "Jesus" being sacrificed/punished? Didn't "Jesus" PAY the price for our "sins"? Shed his holy blood to COVER our sins, thus erasing our sin debt, casting our sins as far as the east is from the west? If THAT is true, then why would "God" exact MORE payment from US? Why do "sinners" need to "pay" for what has already been paid for? Are we to be saved by OUR acts of righteousness now? Something ain't right here, Christians. You can't have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I forsee an influx of end time predictions on this thread. Yeah. Also, isn't the new age supposed to be the age of Aquarius? Not that I believe it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the New Ager groups are predicting the end of the world, too. Why do "sinners" need to "pay" for what has already been paid for? Are we to be saved by OUR acts of righteousness now? Good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I think it's been a tendency throughout history that when disaster strikes, people are more afraid to think they live in a random, uncaring universe than to think that diasater is brought by the gods - cause there's a chance to win over the gods, but no chance to win over chance. Just like when we get dumped by a SO or friend or abused by a parent, lots of us think it's our fault, somehow - it gives us the illusion of some control. So people feel better imagining they're being punished by God in disasters, for that gives them some feeling of control: if we just repent and shape up, God will be nice to us again. Plus, we can blame some scapegoated group. All this puts off the hard work of real assertion of control: i.e. getting better policies about land use in marsh and coastal country, saying no to unwise building, admitting that public services require tax money... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofspong Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 just like ficino said, many people are utterly terrified at the notion that we live in a random, unpredictable world where good people often die for absolutely no reason, and evil bastards get to live long, prosperous lives; where natural disasters mercilessly wipe out cities for no reason at all. To some, its more comforting to think that they actually have the power to influence nature by praying to some invisible diety. Certainly, it sucks when you realize there's absolutely no way in hell you could possibly stop a something like a hurricane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Why do "sinners" need to "pay" for what has already been paid for? Are we to be saved by OUR acts of righteousness now? Of course, God is only punishing non-Christian sinners,. i.e. muslims, atheists, gays, prostitutes, etc., and in the south you have all that voodoo and black magic and stuff Any "Christians" that God happened to smite were not True Christians , they were probably catholics or pentecostals that god wanted to get even with for believing Satan's lies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I had a discussion the other day with a christian that believed that we ALL deserve what New Orleans got, because we are all worthy of it, we are all sinners, no one innocent...that it was a punishment sent from on high. It should be noted that in this particular punishment, God mainly only punished the poor, the handicapped, the sick, and the elderly. And most them were black. God must have been seething with anger at those handicapped and elderly people and decided they need swift and severe punishment. At the same time, God decided to bless healthy upper middle class whites and spare them his wrath and fury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike D Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Isn't the south the "biblebelt"? Actually, one of my pentecostal friends made mention that New Orleans churches are "catholic". IOW...God is punishing them because they aren't "true" Christians. I am not sure, I always though the Bible belt was more the midwest to upper midwest. Basically covering the same area as tornado alley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I had a discussion the other day with a christian that believed that we ALL deserve what New Orleans got, because we are all worthy of it, we are all sinners, no one innocent...that it was a punishment sent from on high. I am wondering: 1. Do you feel it was a punishment on an "unholy" city? 2. Do you believe we all deserve what they got because we are all sinners? I certainly hope that not ALL of the christians out there believe this <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Question #1: No. Their sin is no greater than mine. Question #2: No. I believe that they got what they got because tragic weather happens and it is really making me angry that my Christian brothers and sisters are saying what they are saying. From the Christian perspective.......Judgement happened at the cross. He took our punishment. According to the Bible, judgement will not happen again until the end. In the mean time it seems to make some feel better about their own sin to point a judgemental finger at everyone else. Little sliver/HUGE PLANK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 I am not sure, I always though the Bible belt was more the midwest to upper midwest. Basically covering the same area as tornado alley. That's just Lutheran alley, especially Missouri Synod Lutheran alley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Question #2: No. I believe that they got what they got because tragic weather happens and it is really making me angry that my Christian brothers and sisters are saying what they are saying. That is one of the reasons I could no longer call myself a Christian. I got so fed up with everyone's judgmental views and finger-pointing and all that kind of negativity. It was very rampant in the Lutheran church where I grew up. My mother probably would have said that it was "god's judgment," if she were still alive. And yeah, I tried a more liberal church where they didn't do that sort of thing, but I still couldn't literally believe in what I realized was a myth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 That is one of the reasons I could no longer call myself a Christian. I got so fed up with everyone's judgmental views and finger-pointing and all that kind of negativity. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hey Amethyst...... With this being my opinion above..... Guess who they're pointing judgemental fingers at now? Tap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Bingo. But I'm tough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caretaker Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Every Christian is the wrong kind of Christian to some Christian. Hi Lori! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clergicide Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Question #2: No. I believe that they got what they got because tragic weather happens and it is really making me angry that my Christian brothers and sisters are saying what they are saying. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So you are willing to accept these lunatics as your brothers and sisters, but somehow you're surprised when they invent some insane, biblically inspired, explanation for tragedies like Katrina? Sounds like you cast your net pretty wide when accepting this extended family of yours. Anyone that believes in Jesus is your sibling? The aryan nation believes in Jesus, and so does the Klan. Those are some interesting relatives you've got there. Or do you mean not them, like the same way you mean not fellow humans that don't believe in Jesus? Is there a distiction for you there..there must be or you wouldn't suggest that 'some' people are like brothers and sisters to you. sounds pretty fucking judgemental to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted September 5, 2005 Share Posted September 5, 2005 Their pointing at Christians like yourself and saying your at fault... That is my guess. Hope I'm wrong. I'm not surprised. I was "the wrong kind of Christian" to many of those finger-pointing types when I considered myself Christian, too. So glad I don't have to deal with those people anymore. Anyone that believes in Jesus is your sibling? The aryan nation believes in Jesus, and so does the Klan. So do Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 So you are willing to accept these lunatics as your brothers and sisters, but somehow you're surprised when they invent some insane, biblically inspired, explanation for tragedies like Katrina? Sounds like you cast your net pretty wide when accepting this extended family of yours. Anyone that believes in Jesus is your sibling? The aryan nation believes in Jesus, and so does the Klan. Those are some interesting relatives you've got there. Or do you mean not them, like the same way you mean not fellow humans that don't believe in Jesus? Is there a distiction for you there..there must be or you wouldn't suggest that 'some' people are like brothers and sisters to you. sounds pretty fucking judgemental to me. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Call it what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clergicide Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Call it what you want. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I want to hear what you call it. You seem to have a very definite notion of who these extended family members are, and I'm curious what the prerequisites are. If the 'Katrina is Babylon' types aren't black sheep then I'd like to know just how much more socially degenerate a Jesus believer has to be to lose the title of sibling. Is trying to live a good life, and treat people in kind, part of your definition of Christian? If so, how does this blatant lack of empathy equate to walking the 'righteous' path? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I want to hear what you call it. You seem to have a very definite notion of who these extended family members are, and I'm curious what the prerequisites are. If the 'Katrina is Babylon' types aren't black sheep then I'd like to know just how much more socially degenerate a Jesus believer has to be to lose the title of sibling. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Clergicide......I hear you but I don't have an answer without being judgemental myself. I'm angry. I don't know how to deal with it. But I know that I follow Chirstianity, not Christians. I suppose I'd have to give you a glimpse into my life to know who I'm talking about but even I, can't judge a person's heart. It's hard for me to even comprehend that someone could place judgement upon the people of New Orleans. This is the very thing that I work against. What makes them a brother or sister is a discussion of theology and whether they are truly brothers and sisters is not my call. I was using that term in the broad sense. I'm standing my ground and voicing my opinion against the judgement. What else can I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I'm standing my ground and voicing my opinion against the judgement. What else can I do? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Nothing else. It won't due to be apathetic. Doing or pointing out the right thing has its price as well as satisfaction. I doubt you can be apathetic. Why fight it?Thats a virtue in my book. The price is, right or wrong, that some one will and should question us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clergicide Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 Clergicide......I hear you but I don't have an answer without being judgemental myself. I'm angry. I don't know how to deal with it. But I know that I follow Chirstianity, not Christians. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> These Christians that you don't follow(because you can see how misguided and deranged they are) 'know' they follow Christianity also. It's funny that God's devine teaching can inspire such radically different mindsets. If no one can agree on the meaning of Christ's teaching...do they have any meaning? I suppose I'd have to give you a glimpse into my life to know who I'm talking about but even I, can't judge a person's heart. The words that come out of their mouth are a pretty good indicator for me, actions tend to illustrate a little also. So someone can say heinous things..but their heart may be in the right place? Maybe Dr. Mengele was 'that' kind of Christian then...we don't know what was in his heart. It's hard for me to even comprehend that someone could place judgement upon the people of New Orleans. This is the very thing that I work against. You work against the belief that all is God's will? So when is God the hands-on sort and when does he kick back with a can and watch things unfold? Using God to define and explain the world around them, especially tragedies, is what Christians do, it's how most of them cope with the harsh realities of life. Life is the ultimate test by God to see who will win the golden cookie of the afterlife...hell even I remember that liturgy. What makes them a brother or sister is a discussion of theology and whether they are truly brothers and sisters is not my call. I was using that term in the broad sense. But just being a good person, even in that broad definition, doesn't quite grant a seat at the table does it? Which is the ultimate elitest judgement... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 I suppose I'd have to give you a glimpse into my life to know who I'm talking about but even I, can't judge a person's heart. Know them by thier fruits? You can't read minds, but rational judging is the only thing that can help in solving problems. Faith can not be demonstrated to solve problems, it only causes confusion. The fact that there are thousands of different xian denominations prove that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totallyatpeace Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 But just being a good person, even in that broad definition, doesn't quite grant a seat at the table does it? Which is the ultimate elitest judgement... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> You're right. I give up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 There has already been numerous news clips of Xtian's saying this is "God's Judgement" and "This is an end time's warning" and other typical religious bullshit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dogmatically_challenged Posted September 6, 2005 Share Posted September 6, 2005 You're right.I give up. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Instead of giving up on fighting against intolerance and injustice, give in to apostacy; so that you can do what is in your heart with out the dead weight of an inconsistent, contradictory, partially immoral holy book. If you use scripture against thier scripture you will get no were other than proving that the philosophy of jesus is a little contradictory and very inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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