Paganism Attracts Me

[sangheili_asylum]

It's funny, because for the longest time, paganism has seemed very desirable to me. It is impossible for me to believe in any gods, but from what I've read about paganism, you don't necessarily have to believe in any gods but just the manifestations of personalities of different gods, found in nature (of course, correct me if I'm wrong, I just learned this by research). I hate religions where there are set standards and rules and suppression, but paganism seems to accept homosexuality and being different. I may buy literature on this sect of religion. The love for nature is beautiful, the rituals are interesting, the beliefs and lifestyles are quite wonderful to me. Would I be looked down upon if I am an atheist pagan? Can I still participate in parts of the religion without actually believing in the God/Goddess?

[Vendredie]

From my experience, I too was an atheist pagan (now I'm just a pagan-ish atheist) and nobody seemed bothered by it. However, if you read anything about paganism, you'll find "The God this" and "the Goddess that" (mostly, if not overwhelmingly, just the latter, which began to annoy me after a while). Paganism is a really nice religion, as pretty much anything goes. Just don't get too annoyed when people start assuming you're Wiccan... this is because of the perception that Paganism=Wicca, which I was interested in for a while, but then I realized I did not have the time to "study" (nor did I have anything to study with! They all tell you to wait before you do any "magick" but then go straight to the effing magick!) I abandoned Wicca and just went with regular earth-worshipping paganism, which I find is much less of a hassle, doesn't require tools, or even a belief in any Goddess or menstrual blood powers. It's certainly a hell of a lot better than Christianity, where there's only one God and no others to tell him to GTFO, and crazy ass standards that go completely against biology.

 

Really, there's so many "parts" to Paganism that it's damn near impossible to be excluded. Anything goes as long as you're nice to the planet we live on. I found a gaggle of pagan atheists and we were all buddies with the Wiccans and theistic pagans. trust me, it's very hard to be excluded from anything Pagan, even if you don't believe in a deity.

[sangheili_asylum]

Unfortunately, most of the literature I can find is on Wicca, which is okay as long as it's not dominated by angsty teenagers wanting to cast spells on their enemies (well, it goes against Harm None anyway, yet they still do it). I think it's nice to believe in a God but I'd have to see proof and if I can't even with a Christian God that there is innumerable literature about, how can I with a pagan god? Still, Wicca isn't so bad if I'm not lumped into an abominable category... I like worshiping nature. Why? Because it makes me happy and gives me strength. But I like it because there is no asshole god telling me not to have sex or drink or gossip while he in turns smites hundreds of thousands of people for his Chosen Ones! I'm glad you warned me there's a lot of "Goddess this, God that." I won't take it too seriously. I have a feeling many of the people who believe those things don't REALLY think there are those deities either, you know?

[Vendredie]

Unfortunately, most of the literature I can find is on Wicca, which is okay as long as it's not dominated by angsty teenagers wanting to cast spells on their enemies (well, it goes against Harm None anyway, yet they still do it). I think it's nice to believe in a God but I'd have to see proof and if I can't even with a Christian God that there is innumerable literature about, how can I with a pagan god? Still, Wicca isn't so bad if I'm not lumped into an abominable category... I like worshiping nature. Why? Because it makes me happy and gives me strength. But I like it because there is no asshole god telling me not to have sex or drink or gossip while he in turns smites hundreds of thousands of people for his Chosen Ones! I'm glad you warned me there's a lot of "Goddess this, God that." I won't take it too seriously. I have a feeling many of the people who believe those things don't REALLY think there are those deities either, you know?

Well, they might, they might not. Most of my experiences with Paganism were actually with Wicca, which got very frustrating for me. It's almost as "materialistic" as Christianity (with the jewelry, the books, the clothes, etc.) if not more so (Christianity, after all, does not require wands, chalices, or athames). "Magick" (I just called it magic because even when I was full-on practicing I thought the K was bullshit) is basically prayer only you get to twirl around in a circle, naked or in a robe, around a bunch of candles with a knife/wand in your hand. And you very rarely hear about the God. There is a God, but the Goddess is much more important, for some reason. It's a religion that's all about equality but focuses on women. I'm as feminist as they come, but somehow all the Goddess stuff just didn't sit well with me, and I couldn't help but wonder how guys felt about all this Goddess business.

 

That's why I just went into generic Paganism. Wiccans can actually be very exclusionary toward Christians (something else that turned me off, if you're going to bash any religion at least learn some fucking history!) but for the most part they're friendly (even to Christians). Atheism and paganism are completely compatible. Oddly enough, so are witchcraft/magic(k) and atheism, though I'm still not sure how that works. But that's only if you're into that sort of thing.

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

Paganism never fails to attract me. Though for me, its the art, the symbolism, the ritual, the festivity, the idea of gods (not so much believing, as thats not an option for me), the philosophy stuff and so on. Though I've noticed some pagans looking down on people being pagan and not actually believing.

[Ancey]

My best friend is a Pagan. While her and I don't have the same views (I'm an agnostic/atheist/pantheist), we do have mutual respect for each others religious views and a mutual disrespect for Christianity. The only difference is I actually grew up in it as where her mother was very lax and she was a Christian for all of a week before deciding it was bull.

 

While I can't recall her exact beliefs, she does seem to find importance in nature Gods, particularly I think a Mother Goddess. (I really can't remember exactly what deities she deals with.) She has also told me she shakes her head at a lot of Pagan spell-casting and ritual and seems very level-headed and realistic with her paganism. Although she did say she would never ask for anything from her Goddess because she wouldn't get it anyway, and might get a lightning bolt up her ass or some other... hehehe.

 

Although I can appreciate the more naturalistic and artistic aspects of paganism, I just don't care to worship nature. I love nature, but I don't worship it. Paganism seems more heavy up here than atheism, too. I know another guy who is a pagan, and has had some pretty vivid experiences in meditation/ritual, apparently. He believes in a Mother Goddess, too, and even freaked out a Christian friend when he explained what he beleived in during a dinner for a club I'm involved in.

[lunaticheathen]

Philosophic Pagans seem to be on the rise, and with the right amount of respect for theistic Pagans, I don't see an issue.

If there is an ancient recorded civilization, there's a Pagan system too, most likely. It's definitely not all Wicca - and yes, people will assume you're wiccan. Or if you wear a pentagram, sometimes a jew (apparently, counting is difficult for some).

I'm a theistic Pagan myself. I have my reasons for believing, all highly personal and unprovable. I get shit for this. For some reason, being an atheistic pagan is better than a theistic one. Theists are all stupid, don't ya know?

So go ahead. In this little part of the web, you'll be better liked than me.

[sangheili_asylum]

I appreciate all the insights and what not. I suppose it makes sense that a pagan who believes in the gods/goddesses might dislike me for not believing, but pagans also seem more accepting. It's just very difficult for me to believe in them when I can't even believe in the Christian god and there's TONS of literature on him. As Babylonian Dream said, "its the art, the symbolism, the ritual, the festivity, the idea of gods (not so much believing, as thats not an option for me), the philosophy stuff and so on"....I TOTALLY agree. I tend to view religion more from an intellectual standpoint. However, I don't look down on pagans for believing in gods. I mean, I've always wondered if there are energies and such floating around, even if they aren't gods, and it's sort of like they're acknowledging that... I don't know, I'm gonna buy some literature on it and check it out.

[Shyone]

Philosophic Pagans seem to be on the rise, and with the right amount of respect for theistic Pagans, I don't see an issue.

If there is an ancient recorded civilization, there's a Pagan system too, most likely. It's definitely not all Wicca - and yes, people will assume you're wiccan. Or if you wear a pentagram, sometimes a jew (apparently, counting is difficult for some).

I'm a theistic Pagan myself. I have my reasons for believing, all highly personal and unprovable. I get shit for this. For some reason, being an atheistic pagan is better than a theistic one. Theists are all stupid, don't ya know?

So go ahead. In this little part of the web, you'll be better liked than me.

I don't see why you're so down on yourself. I like you! I may poke fun at times (the way NotBlinded pokes at me), but I sincerely mean no harm.

[Deva]

I'm a theistic Pagan myself. I have my reasons for believing, all highly personal and unprovable. I get shit for this. For some reason, being an atheistic pagan is better than a theistic one. Theists are all stupid, don't ya know?

So go ahead. In this little part of the web, you'll be better liked than me.

 

 

I'm sorry to see you say this, but I can also understand why. I have felt for a few years that at least here, in this one area of the forums, a non-Christian theist should not be ridiculed or told they are believing something "absurdly silly".

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I have felt for a few years that at least here, in this one area of the forums, a non-Christian theist should not be ridiculed or told they are believing something "absurdly silly".

 

I quite agree and have asked the moderator to start enforcing the guidelines for this section. The other sections of the forums are wide open, but this is supposed to be a safe zone free from derisive comments, regardless of what you feel. (Just because you think or feel something doesn't mean you need to post it, at least in this section.)

[Ouroboros]

I have felt for a few years that at least here, in this one area of the forums, a non-Christian theist should not be ridiculed or told they are believing something "absurdly silly".

 

I quite agree and have asked the moderator to start enforcing the guidelines for this section. The other sections of the forums are wide open, but this is supposed to be a safe zone free from derisive comments, regardless of what you feel. (Just because you think or feel something doesn't mean you need to post it, at least in this section.)

You're right, and I deleted Vixens' post.

 

However, I do have a life outside the website, and so do the other moderators. It's not like we are able to read every post, all the time, 24 hours a day. As soon as I got the report, I deleted the post.

 

Announcement to everyone:

 

This part of the website, the Theism and Spirituality forum, has been dedicated to be safe for those who have found some new faith or belief outside of Christianity. Respect this, please.

 

Hans

[Midnight-mindwanderings]

It's funny, because for the longest time, paganism has seemed very desirable to me. It is impossible for me to believe in any gods, but from what I've read about paganism, you don't necessarily have to believe in any gods but just the manifestations of personalities of different gods, found in nature (of course, correct me if I'm wrong, I just learned this by research). I hate religions where there are set standards and rules and suppression, but paganism seems to accept homosexuality and being different. I may buy literature on this sect of religion. The love for nature is beautiful, the rituals are interesting, the beliefs and lifestyles are quite wonderful to me. Would I be looked down upon if I am an atheist pagan? Can I still participate in parts of the religion without actually believing in the God/Goddess?

 

I stopped believing in the bible when I was 16 but I did not immediately stop believing in a God concept. I studied different gods of different cultures opened up my idea of god until I became pantheistic. I "believe" in the God and Goddess the way I "believe" in the sun and earth. I acknowledge that I am personifying inanimate objects and I enjoy it. I love thinking about things symbolically. Literalism is highly overrated IMO.

 

So yes of course you can be an atheistic pagan. I find myself on the atheistic side so much I don't mind accepting the label when needed. Most people don't understand pantheism or the distinction is irrelevant. But I celebrate the seasons, the holidays, the moons. I sing chants and dance the spiral dance and cast the circle because its a wonderful and grounding experience. I have only done group things a few times and I prefer to be solitary, so I can do whatever I want. And so can you. I don't object to labels but I don't feel the need to keep myself confined to one.

 

This bookis about Wicca but I really enjoyed it since it talks more about the philosophy and ethics and lifestyle rather than listing recipes for spells or rituals. Some stuff is more theistic but there could be things in there that speak to you anyway.

[lunaticheathen]

I think paganism, in all its myriad forms, is attractive because it speaks directly to human/natural experience. The sun is there, utterly inarguable. So is the moon, the planet, rivers, lakes, mountains, trees, animals, etc.

How you see the "gods" is always up for grabs, and has been for the entire history of human thinking.

I believe in a divine, but it's immanent, and not the personal, judgmental, "I know better than you, so I get to spank you" Abrahamic god. I call myself animistic and polytheistic - but what I define as "god" isn't a magic genie that waits for me to grovel and ask for something.

Maybe it's others thinking that I do think that which makes people think I believe because it makes me "feel good."

I believe through experience. If that's wrong, well, kill me.

[J.W.]

I think paganism, in all its myriad forms, is attractive because it speaks directly to human/natural experience. The sun is there, utterly inarguable. So is the moon, the planet, rivers, lakes, mountains, trees, animals, etc.

How you see the "gods" is always up for grabs, and has been for the entire history of human thinking.

I believe in a divine, but it's immanent, and not the personal, judgmental, "I know better than you, so I get to spank you" Abrahamic god. I call myself animistic and polytheistic - but what I define as "god" isn't a magic genie that waits for me to grovel and ask for something.

Maybe it's others thinking that I do think that which makes people think I believe because it makes me "feel good."

I believe through experience. If that's wrong, well, kill me.

 

Nothing wrong with that Luna. Its hard to describe the color red. I think beliefs only really go wrong when the subjective gets pushed onto other people. I don't see you doing that. The world is pretty boring without a little wonder right?

[Franko47]

I would just like to apologize to anyone here who have non-Christian personal theistic views (like Deva) wherein I may have been rude and not respected the context of the discussion regardless of which forum it was in.

 

After all, most of us are somewhat against "religion" per se, with it's theologies and dogmas. That can sometimes spill over into being critical of anything "mystical".

 

I still like to trip out occasionally on conversations about consciousness and so on; just because I'm a skeptic doesn't mean that I can't be "spiritual". I know there was a thread a while back about this issue; and although overall I don't think it's a problem, we need to occasionally get together and make sure that the majority of our members are comfortable with being able to express themselves on this board.

 

No matter what one is into, we shouldn't have to feel embarrassed to talk about it here.

 

We now resume our regular programming...

[Deva]

I am not really a pagan in the way of the earth centered religions but I have a good friend who is very attracted by it. I am a lot more interested in the mind and that is why I went the Buddhist route. Not to derail the discussion into Buddhism, but there are deities in Vajrayana Buddhism, which are like personifications of qualities of the mind like compassion and wisdom. Also plenty of ceremony and ritual dedicated to these deities. I can't personally see participating in ceremonies and rituals without believing in the reality of what is supposed to be happening.

 

Don't these deities to a certain extent become real to the mind of the devotee? Then the question is, does that understanding help you in your life? Do you become happier, more peaceful, more calm, less willing to hold onto destructive emotions?

[Adelice]

Dont let others drag you down on all the religions drama , has i said before , just because christianity messed up so badly doesnt mean you gotta stop believing all together.

 

But now seriously , i dont wanna sound so aggressive , but why is the need of having so much names? Latetly everyone is like " im an pantheist\atheist\agnostic\christian\LDS\JW\satanist\santeria\catholic " .... listen , just because you accept some things of the religion itself , doesnt means you ACTUALLY gotta follow it ok? Not because you said " oh hey i like those ideas " , means you gotta make the most longest religion name in the world history , is silly enough has it sounds.

 

Now , dont hold an grudge on christianity , has any other thing in this universe , is another point of view on something , fine you didnt fit in , but neither you gotta be angry at them , just gently go away and say , that wasnt my path , dont feel ashamed or worry to say it , you dont gotta fit in neither " christianity " or " hardcore atheism ". Just accept the fact , is just another point of view , another way of living life , i understand is NOT ok to christian messing up on politics or anything like that , but apart of that , if it doesnt concerns you anymore why bothering? The christian god is just one forced upon us , but is not the only god documented neither.

 

Just be cool with it , accept whatever path you choose , no need for silly denominations or breeding new hybrids just because you feel you gotta make everyone feel nice and warm inside themselfs with your points of view. If theres no god , then why you bother about believing or not?

 

( By the way , atheist pagan? - isnt that a little .... well you know? Why cant you just stay with one? Is not that hard )

[Deva]

Dont let others drag you down on all the religions drama , has i said before , just because christianity messed up so badly doesnt mean you gotta stop believing all together.

 

Adelice, this is the Theism section of the forum. Some of us here do still believe in God or Gods, just not the Christian God.

 

But now seriously , i dont wanna sound so aggressive , but why is the need of having so much names? Latetly everyone is like " im an pantheist\atheist\agnostic\christian\LDS\JW\satanist\santeria\catholic " .... listen , just because you accept some things of the religion itself , doesnt means you ACTUALLY gotta follow it ok? Not because you said " oh hey i like those ideas " , means you gotta make the most longest religion name in the world history , is silly enough has it sounds.

 

So what if someone chooses to use several names to describe their beliefs? Why should you care? I don't understand why you seem so aggressive, maybe its a language barrier. You have two different Gods in your description under your avatar, as well as Lucifer, and you are complaining about how others describe themselves?

 

( By the way , atheist pagan? - isnt that a little .... well you know? Why cant you just stay with one? Is not that hard )

 

I still don't understand why you are so bothered by what other people call themselves. Maybe their idea is too complicated for one word.

[lunaticheathen]

I can't personally see participating in ceremonies and rituals without believing in the reality of what is supposed to be happening.

 

Don't these deities to a certain extent become real to the mind of the devotee? Then the question is, does that understanding help you in your life? Do you become happier, more peaceful, more calm, less willing to hold onto destructive emotions?

 

Depends on what you mean by "believe."

I think rituals are just a way to push the mind into a liminal state, a way to let it see another way of thinking/being. Literal truth means nothing in a ritual/mystical state. So there doesn't have to be a literal "being" that embodies these qualities, it's enough that the qualities exist at all.

 

Also, I like attempting to describe what/who I am and what I believe, even if it takes a dozen words. At the end of the day, yes, I'm my own person, and I don't belong to any one faith, but we're symbolic creatures, we like words/symbols to tell who and what we are. I'm nothing but what I am.

[sangheili_asylum]

I'm replying to two people here:

 

First off, I never said I was an atheist pagan. My post was an expression of how beautiful and sensual I think some parts of paganism are.

 

Second: Yeah, I see what you mean about needed to believe in order to participate in the rituals, but at the same time...I'd do it to feel good, ya know? I like "Spiritual feelings" even though I have learned that they are purely psychological. This would be a good reason not to ever actually CALL myself pagan if I have that attitude lol, but it would make me happy, and I want to be happy cause I've been unhappy for so long

[lunaticheathen]

I'm replying to two people here:

 

First off, I never said I was an atheist pagan. My post was an expression of how beautiful and sensual I think some parts of paganism are.

 

Fair enough. Thanks for good thoughts about it.

 

Second: Yeah, I see what you mean about needed to believe in order to participate in the rituals, but at the same time...I'd do it to feel good, ya know? I like "Spiritual feelings" even though I have learned that they are purely psychological. This would be a good reason not to ever actually CALL myself pagan if I have that attitude lol, but it would make me happy, and I want to be happy cause I've been unhappy for so long

 

Personally, if you brought good vibes (thoughts, energy, whatever) to the rite, I wouldn't turn you away. Happy = good, so that's all good.

[sangheili_asylum]

Oh, that first reply wasn't to you, as I feel I was maybe being antagonistic and I have nothing against you...I just felt criticized by the other poster.

 

But in reference to the second part of your post, I'm glad you guys would accept me

[Deva]

I can't personally see participating in ceremonies and rituals without believing in the reality of what is supposed to be happening.

 

Don't these deities to a certain extent become real to the mind of the devotee? Then the question is, does that understanding help you in your life? Do you become happier, more peaceful, more calm, less willing to hold onto destructive emotions?

 

Depends on what you mean by "believe."

I think rituals are just a way to push the mind into a liminal state, a way to let it see another way of thinking/being. Literal truth means nothing in a ritual/mystical state. So there doesn't have to be a literal "being" that embodies these qualities, it's enough that the qualities exist at all.

 

I don't know. You have really got me thinking about what I was probably not expressing rightly.

 

I guess what I mean is that if you didn't see some kind of truth or core value in a ritual, why would you do it? I don't mean some kind of dry philosophical definition kind of belief, I mean something that speaks to you on some deep level personally as being true. That's probably the best I can do.

 

 

Also, I like attempting to describe what/who I am and what I believe, even if it takes a dozen words. At the end of the day, yes, I'm my own person, and I don't belong to any one faith, but we're symbolic creatures, we like words/symbols to tell who and what we are. I'm nothing but what I am.

 

Yes we are symbolic creatures. As Wittgenstein said, "It's all a language game" and language is symbolic. I don't see the objection to describing oneself with labels. I see no problem either with drawing from different traditions according to what seems meaningful and discarding the rest of it.

[lunaticheathen]

I don't know. You have really got me thinking about what I was probably not expressing rightly.

 

I guess what I mean is that if you didn't see some kind of truth or core value in a ritual, why would you do it? I don't mean some kind of dry philosophical definition kind of belief, I mean something that speaks to you on some deep level personally as being true. That's probably the best I can do.

 

Well, of course there's no reason to participate in a ritual where you have nothing personal invested in it. Whether it's some kind of belief, truth, feeling, or whatever, I would expect with full participation comes some kind of offering of self towards the activity. I can't participate in church anymore, since it just feels like I'm going through the motions, and lying. I have nothing to offer them, since I don't feel any connection with their god.

My own rituals are invested with my own beliefs and energy. I find more truth in the little things I do myself than in a building.

I do plan on attending a St John's Eve rite here on the Bayou. I feel a deep connection with the spirits of the Bayou, and the spirit (whatever that is) of Marie Laveau, who the ritual will be honoring. I've never been to a group event such as this, much less a Vodou rite. I might write a thread about it when it happens. I am excited and interested in how I will feel about a group event now.