Bigotry against women in Fundamentalism

[Asimov]

Good post, doomguarder. I liked what you had to say.

 

It has been made pretty clear that everyone on this thread agrees that women who have the choice to be submissive or not is not considered bad, so I don't know why there is 5 pages of argument.

 

It has also been made pretty clear by everyone that we all think that women are forced to be a certain way (middle east for example) are put in a position that is abusive.

 

So where's the argument?

[doomguarder]

The argument comes in when you have to decide if a woman has made a decision (choice) or been forced into a situation.

 

This is difficult to ascertain. If she made a choice, then it was hers to make. If she simply does not know that other options exist, and is in the situation because of circumstances outside of her control, how do we respond? I would say education, and if she, knowing other options exist, still remains in her original situation, then she has chosen.

 

How do you determine what camp each woman living in these households fits into? That is the crux of the problem.

 

I never assume that my choices are good for everyone. I am just too selfish to be a mother. I realize this and act accordingly. Others do feel that their choices are the “right” or “correct” ones, and feel the need to “spread the word”. Just as fundamentalist christians feel that women should only be at home mothers or teachers, many fundamentalist feminists feel that only women who are in the work force could have made an informed decisions.

 

Between a rock and a hard place, ya know. No matter what you choose someone doesn’t like the decision.

 

Generally, we each must decide what the right place is within society for our needs. I work, so does hubby, and we are happy. My best friend married and stays at home to care for her children. She has a Masters in engineering. She could work, but her kids are her life. Both of her kids could do basic math before they entered preschool. I would never judge her for her decision because she would chew my head right off then use it for dinner.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I guess I see the submissive role of women in a marriage relationship in this way:

 

1: First, being submissive to one's husband isn't the same as being submissive to all men. In light of Proverbs 31 (that describes a business woman) I see no Biblical mandate for a woman to be submissive to any man other than her husband.

 

2: Secondly, all people submit to someone else -- as a man I submit to other men and to women I work with -- I submit to cops, teachers, politicians, etc. So asking a woman to submit to her husband isn't putting women into some unusual position since everyone (for the sake of civilization) has to submit to someone at some point down the line.

 

3: Thirdly, any time you have a team you must have a leader. Someone has to be the final decision maker when the two disagree -- there is just factually no way around it. If the marriage is going to survive then someone has to submit at some point - those are just the facts.

 

4: Fourth, it is a startling embrace of reality to recognize that as long as men are physically stronger than women that women will in fact submit to men whether they want to or not. Any freedom that women have today is because the stronger sex allows it. That isn't politically correct -- I know that will get me labeled, but it is a fact of biology whether you like it or not.

 

5: Fifth, the man is commanded to love his wife with a self sacrifical love -- which is a very tall order. Real love is patient, kind, and considerate. Real love is not abusive, mean, and harsh.

 

Those are my thoughts, anyways.

[LadyFeline]

Whoa, see that everyone...Rachel's 17...I love a 17 year old, and I think she's cute.  I must be locked away because I'm clearly perverted.[/b]

 

Hey, you wanna get excited over a 17-year-old, you go right ahead, seeing as how the age of consent in most states is 16

[Rachelness]

3: Thirdly, any time you have a team you must have a leader.  Someone has to be the final decision maker when the two disagree -- there is just factually no way around it.  If the marriage is going to survive then someone has to submit at some point - those are just the facts.

Mad, while you are most welcome to your opinion, can I remind you that your way is not the only way. My mum does NOT submit to my father, and they've been together a lot longer than you have been with your wife. THIS is a fact. So what do you say to that?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Mad, while you are most welcome to your opinion, can I remind you that your way is not the only way. My mum does NOT submit to my father, and they've been together a lot longer than you have been with your wife. THIS is a fact. So what do you say to that?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I think we probably should work out what we mean by the word submit?

 

I don't think submit means 'stupid' or 'incapable' or 'without an opinion'. I don't think it means 'mindlessly obey' either.

 

[Rachelness]

My definition of 'submit': submit (as in "submit") v. : yield to the control of another.

 

Your definition, Mad?

 

[SkepticOfBible]

I guess I see the submissive role of women in a marriage relationship in this way:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Off course christianity is not a egalitarian system, it is a patriachal system. That is why the roles of women are clearly defined in a christian world.

 

But the basic assumption of a patriachal system is that all men are smart and strong, both physically and mentally, which is a fallacy cause we have hard evidence that is not a case, cause there are always exceptions to generalisations.

 

1: First, being submissive to one's husband isn't the same as being submissive to all men.  In light of Proverbs 31 (that describes a business woman) I see no Biblical mandate for a woman to be submissive to any man other than her husband.

 

Agree on that point

 

2: Secondly, all people submit to someone else -- as a man I submit to other men and to women I work with -- I submit to cops, teachers, politicians, etc.  So asking a woman to submit to her husband isn't putting women into some unusual position since everyone (for the sake of civilization) has to submit to someone at some point down the line.

 

How about asking a man to submit to a women. After all many times a women may make a better decision than a man. But the bible doesn't state anything of that sort. History has proved that women are equally capable of making good decision as men have

 

3: Thirdly, any time you have a team you must have a leader.  Someone has to be the final decision maker when the two disagree -- there is just factually no way around it.  If the marriage is going to survive then someone has to submit at some point - those are just the facts.

 

That doesn't apply to a partnership. As you said if the marriage is gonna survive then someone has to submit at some point. But unfortunately neither the bible nor christian men promote the fact that it is wiser for a husband to submit to a women in case of critical decision.

 

4: Fourth, it is a startling embrace of reality to recognize that as long as men are physically stronger than women that women will in fact submit to men whether they want to or not.  Any freedom that women have today is because the stronger sex allows it.  That isn't politically correct -- I know that will get me labeled, but it is a fact of biology whether you like it or not

.

 

Again you are assuming that all men are physically and mentally stronger than women. That is a fallacy. You are not taking into consideration that there may me times where a woman is mentally and physically stronger than man. Again there are no provisions in the bible regarding this case.

 

5: Fifth, the man is commanded to love his wife with a self sacrifical love -- which is a very tall order.  Real love is patient, kind, and considerate.  Real love is not abusive, mean, and harsh.

 

Agree on that point

[Amethyst]

I think we probably should work out what we mean by the word submit?

 

I don't think submit means 'stupid' or 'incapable' or 'without an opinion'. I don't think it means 'mindlessly obey' either.

 

From Dictionary.com:

 

sub·mit ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sb-mt)

v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits

v. tr.

To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.

To subject to a condition or process.

To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose.

To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.

 

v. intr.

To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield.

To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

 

Looks like the "giving in to authority" definitions far outnumber any other ones. I suppose you could use #4, but that's not how the word is most commonly used. It is most commonly used to mean "yield," like it or not.

[Cerise]

Any freedom that women have today is because the stronger sex allows it. 

 

And the poor rodent puzzled and puzzled over why some of the women at Ex-C.net thought he was a sexist pig...

 

go figure.

[LadyFeline]

4: Fourth, it is a startling embrace of reality to recognize that as long as men are physically stronger than women that women will in fact submit to men whether they want to or not.  Any freedom that women have today is because the stronger sex allows it.  That isn't politically correct -- I know that will get me labeled, but it is a fact of biology whether you like it or not.

 

Yay, another chance to use one of my newly-minted images...

 

 

[Rachelness]

[fairyhedgehog]

It was the attitude to women that finally got me out of fundamentalist Christianity. It led to me reading and thinking - not good things to do if you want to remain a fundie.

 

As to what kept me for so long in a religion that is so anti-women:

a) It replicated the type of male/female relationships I'd been brought up with, so it felt normal although not comfortable

b ) It was part of the package which saved me from 'hell' (ie I was shit scared of leaving)

c) All my friends were in it so it was dreadfully hard to leave

d) All my friends were in it so there was huge peer pressure

e) I was used to listening to male authority telling me what was right - a kind of brainwashed response to adult male voices

 

Does this give some sort of an answer to the OP?

 

By the way, hi everyone, I'm new

[doomguarder]

Welcome fairyhedgehog,

 

I had not really thought of emulating previously seen relationships. Good addition.

 

 

 

 

P.S. I think you will like it here at Dave’s place.

[Mad_Gerbil]

And the poor rodent puzzled and puzzled over why some of the women at Ex-C.net thought he was a sexist pig...

 

go figure.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cerise, this is what I've come to expect from you -- instead of rationally addressing the factual statement you call names. How about handling the assertion?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Yay, another chance to use one of my newly-minted images...

 

 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

LadyFeline:

 

I welcome you to refute the factual claim I've made instead of posting funny, albeit irrelevent pictures.

 

The facts are that women are vunerable -- they get pregnant for one, and are physically weaker. When negotiations break down and push turns to shove who is gonna win about 95% of the time in a knock down drag 'em out? (Xena aside, of course)

 

I'm not making the claim to be a bully, rather I wondering out loud if the whole submission thing is just a stark embrace of reality -- a recognition of how things pan out in the real world. How many societies are there that are entirely controlled by women (and no, a Queen on the thrown who depends upon a male army doesn't count).

 

I don't think recognizing that typically men are stronger than women and typically less vunerable -- I don't think recognizing that makes one a sexist -- unless the rationalist here have a problem with empirical evidence all of a sudden.

 

So can the stupid sexist stuff already, unless insults is all you got in the face of facts.

 

Why do you think the Bible talks about children submitting to parents and believers submitting to governmental authority? Why? Because that is just a stark embrace of who is actually in control in those relationships perhaps?

 

You guys wanna discuss this or just call names?

 

 

[Mad_Gerbil]

From Dictionary.com:

 

sub·mit    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (sb-mt)

v. sub·mit·ted, sub·mit·ting, sub·mits

v. tr.

To yield or surrender (oneself) to the will or authority of another.

To subject to a condition or process.

To commit (something) to the consideration or judgment of another. See Synonyms at propose.

To offer as a proposition or contention: I submit that the terms are entirely unreasonable.

 

v. intr.

To give in to the authority, power, or desires of another. See Synonyms at yield.

To allow oneself to be subjected to something.

 

Looks like the "giving in to authority" definitions far outnumber any other ones.  I suppose you could use #4, but that's not how the word is most commonly used.  It is most commonly used to mean "yield," like it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I'm guessing its the first one -- although I can look it up and find out exactly what it means in the Greek. My guess is the 'yield or surrender to the authority of another' which is something every person on the planet does on a daily basis.

 

There isn't anything being asked for in a Biblical Marriage that isn't already a fact of life for all people everywhere anyways -- except that in marriage the one that has the authority is expected to LOVE HIS WIFE which makes it the sweetest deal anyone is gonna get.

 

...

[Rachelness]

Mad, you still didn't repond to the comment regarding my parents. My mother doesn't submit to my father under your definition, yet they're still together. WTF is that all about?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Mad, you still didn't repond to the comment regarding my parents. My mother doesn't submit to my father under your definition, yet they're still together. WTF is that all about?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The way things ought to be isn't the same as the way things are....

 

I don't see where the woman not submitting automatically means divorce, death, and stacks of child porn.

[Rachelness]

Cerise, this is what I've come to expect from you -- instead of rationally addressing the factual statement you call names.  How about handling the assertion?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mad, that people don't bother to take you seriously might have something to do with your arrogance. It probably comes from your fundamentalist, black and white, mindset - they are wrong, therefore I must be right; period. Just a thought.

[Rachelness]

The way things ought to be isn't the same as the way things are....

 

I don't see where the woman not submitting automatically means divorce, death, and stacks of child porn.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The way things 'ought' to be? And if this works for my parents, why 'ought' it to be any different?

[Mad_Gerbil]

Mad, that people don't bother to take you seriously might have something to do with your arrogance. It probably comes from your fundamentalist, black and white, mindset - they are wrong, therefore I must be right; period. Just a thought.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Cerise typically responds with name calling.... am I wrong to expect more than that from rationalists?

 

Time and time again I hear that it is all about rational arguments and using logic to get to the truth -- well the only kind of logic name calling represents is a logical fallacy.

 

Pointing out an Ad Hom attack isn't 'arrogance', it is just simply giving the logical reason for a total dismissil of the argument.

[Mad_Gerbil]

I want to be clear here on some points:

 

Submission doesn't mean:

1: The woman is intellectually less capable.

2: The woman should take less money for doing the same job.

3: The woman's opinions and experience don't count.

4: The woman is a toy.

5: The woman is less than equal in importance before G_d.

6: The woman is helpless.

 

Many fundamentalists interpret it that way -- I'll grant you that, but then they are wrong, aren't they?

 

My wife, when she works earns more money than I do.

My wife has many traits that I envy -- she is a better person than me in many ways.

My wife is better at handling emergencies than I am and she thinks quicker on her feet.

My wife knows more about cars than I do and she likes football.

 

If I was more like my wife I'd be a better person.

 

Submission is statement regarding authority and order in the home but it makes no statements about worth, capability, or spirituality.

 

You are RIGHT to rebel against definitions of submission that are used to subjugate females to the absurd -- I've had to defend my own wife against such claims when relatives thought I wasn't exhibiting a Biblical home because she was working and I wasn't -- so I've gone to bat for my wife in that her freedom isn't out of line.

 

I'll fight fundys on this..

And I'll fight you all on this...

 

Extremists in either camp are still extremists.

 

[Rachelness]

Cerise typically responds with name calling.... am I wrong to expect more than that from rationalists?

 

Time and time again I hear that it is all about rational arguments and using logic to get to the truth -- well the only kind of logic name calling represents is a logical fallacy.

 

Pointing out an Ad Hom attack isn't 'arrogance', it is just simply giving the logical reason for a total dismissil of the argument.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, Mad, although we all have the potential to be rational creatures, some of us just don't cut the mustard. I commend Cerise for spotting you early, and responding to your posts with an impatient handwave, or a witty ad hom. She's a woman after my own heart, Cerise.

[Rachelness]

I want to be clear here on some points:

If your wife is better at handling emergencies than you are and she thinks quicker on her feet, then it makes sense to me that she is the "leader" of the home.

 

If my husband is as thick as shit (which I can assure you he won't be) then I would rather not submit to his idiotic decisions.

 

It makes more sense (to me) that the less intelligent submits to the more intelligent (if you insist on there being some sort of submission, which in itself seems very infantile to me).