Animals

[Poketto Kunoichi]

Since you left Christianity, has your view on animals changed? Fundies seem to treat animals like mere tools to the point where I want to make them my slave and taste their own medicine, so I'd like to see what ex-Christians think.

 

I've always been an animal lover, but I used to see humans as above animals just because the babble said so. Now, I don't believe there's any absolute value in life, and the value of something is a concept of the human mind, and different to each individual. To me, if an animal feels pain and is conscious, not necessarily intelligent, it's on equal footing with humans. Like a hamster, for example. They may not be the brightest furballs, but anyone who has ever had one would know they get scared and and are actually quite clever (opening the rolling ball slide by sticking your teeth through the slit). But a sponge, though living, has no brain, so it's lower on the value scale to me.

 

Basically, anything that's conscious is equal to me, to the point where I wouldn't care if someone offered me fried human. Of course, I wouldn't go around killing animals (including people) to eat. Oh, and I'm actually trying to be vegetarian. Just throwing it out there if I come off as some sort of sociopath.

 

What's your view on the "value" of animals or anything nonhuman?

[Ouroboros]

My view of animals most definitely changed. I considered animals a lower life form, but now, even though I consider humans to have a higher intelligence, my view is that animals have the proverbial soul as well (on different levels of course).

[SilentLoner]

Growing up I was taught the anthropocentric xtian worldview, basically that all creatures were here to serve humans and be at our disposal, no animals could go to heaven. Dominion over nature is practically a tenet in the Judeo-Xtian worldview.

 

To me, if an animal feels pain and conscious, not necessarily intelligence, it's on equal footing with humans.

 

I basically agree with this. But I stay aware that many animals would eat me.

[OpheliaGinger]

My view has not changed since leaving. We humans are just as equally evolved along with other animals, so we are no more advanced than any other animal.

[agnosticator]

Since you left Christianity, has your view on animals changed?

 

Definitely. We are all related through the tree of life, or evolution. We have a reptilian and mammalian brain, in addition to the neocortex or more "human" part. Without our animal related parts, we wouldn't exist. To a certain extent, we know how other animals feel and react, and man can no longer be considered separate from other sentient beings.

 

To me, if an animal feels pain and is conscious, not necessarily intelligent, it's on equal footing with humans....Basically, anything that's conscious is equal to me, to the point where I wouldn't care if someone offered me fried human.

 

I don't quite agree, because we are far more intelligent than any other animal. But that should make us more sensitive and responsible in our treatment of those of lesser intelligence. It's sort of like how we treat humans who are severely handicapped mentally. We don't kill them, but help them live a good life. We should extend this care to other intelligent, sentient animals.

 

Eating seafood (for example)isn't the same as cannibalism. I don't see a problem with it. But eating pigs and chickens is a problem because of their intelligence, yet eating them isn't equal to eating humans. The Indians (from India) are on the right track for the wrong reasons, when we consider cows, chickens, etc.-excluding insects and life lacking higher intelligence and consciousness. So I value other sentient beings and try not to use them or harm them, because they have feelings and intelligence. They're our friggin' cousins for goodness sake!

[VacuumFlux]

Somewhat. As a Christian, I viewed humans as extra special and different from animals, but I thought a lot of Christians didn't focus strongly enough on the "caretaker" part of that specialness. It even sorta fits in with Christianity; we have dominion over the animals in the way a husband has dominion over his wife and parents over children, the way Christ has dominion over the church. Theoretically, the one with "dominion" also has some serious responsibility towards their, uh, minions.

 

Now however, I'm aware than I am an animal. But... the animal world has no inherent morality to it. As a Christian, I tried to deny more more "animal" urges of lust and violence (having no real comprehension that plenty of animals experience the "good" emotions). The main thing I gain as a human animal is the ability to get long-term goals to override my immediate emotions. As an animal, I care more about my own specie's well being than I do of others, the same way I care more about my immediate kin and friends than people on the other side of the globe. And I have predatory instincts. I have seriously considered going deer hunting with primitive weapons. Using a bow and arrow requires training and skill on my part and thus shows some respect towards the animal I'm hunting (not that it makes the prey's pain any less, but I want to first be accurate enough to have a good chance of the first hit being fatal, minimizing the pain). Also, we've killed off/chased away the deer's natural predators (mostly wolves, I think; we didn't like them eating our sheep and children), causing the deer to be unnaturally overpopulated, starve, and run all over the streets to get them and motorists hurt/killed. Why shouldn't we fill the gap in the food chain that we emptied out?

 

So emotionally, no, I don't think I care much more about animals than I did as a Christian. I have, however, gained the appreciation that animals are "us", not just "them". And I understand that animals can feel love, compassion, and loyalty in the same way that we can. We don't have an extra special piece called a soul or spirit that animals are missing; we are animals.

 

I think the concern for animals that I have gained is from more cold-blooded/self-serving reasons. Animals are cute and cuddly in exactly the same way that human babies are. Destroying our compassion for cute and cuddly could, then, affect how we relate to other humans. Serial killers tend to start with animals before moving on to humans. Since I want the best for my fellow humans (because they're most like me, and I want good things for me), I think it is good to encourage compassionate treatment of animals.

 

And, completely aside from any religious/moral reasoning, I think animals are cool and it makes me sad when the fascinating thing I was just watching gets hurts. And I feel that way because that's how I evolved, because humans are (one of many) social animals. I don't have to explain those feelings with being made "in the image of God" or having an extra special soul than animals don't, it just is.

[♦ Fuego ♦]

I guess I never bought into a view of humans being "higher" to begin with, just different. We use our intelligence to make life easier, building on previous discoveries. I don't know that any other animals philosophize about how other species should be treated. I have lately been considering the way of life itself, from viruses to humans, and most life doesn't give a second thought about eating other creatures or becoming a parasite on another living creature. "Life" seems driven to multiply itself and doesn't really care much how it accomplishes this goal.

 

There are even tiny parasitic fish that will swim up your urethra if you pee while immersed in a stream (in another country), lodge in your body and feed off your blood. Evidently they've been around long enough to thrive by doing this. There is no thought to any inconvenience they might cause.

 

So there are some creatures I would have no qualms about squashing, anymore than I have a problem taking an antibiotic to kill invading bacteria. Bunny rabbits are ever so cute, and so are generally exempted unless I am hunting rabbits, or they are eating my garden.

 

Then again, I have been taking time to notice how my cats feel. They can exhibit quite a range of emotion, and since we are not in a predator/prey relationship I can take time to care about their feelings and appreciate their affection, and respect their fears and boundaries.

[MagickMonkey]

I think my change in attitude towards animals has damn little to do with my deconversion. Maybe because it hasn't changed that much, but I do feel more empathy for non-human animals than when I was younger.

 

And I have predatory instincts.

 

Yeah, me too. It seems silly that anyone would want to hunt animals when there is so much animal protein available at any grocery store. But I still feel the urge to hunt and fish. I guess the instinct is one that is mostly obsolete, but still one from which humans have not completely evolved.

[lunaticheathen]

I was taught the whole "animals have no souls" line, and how animals have no rights, but I never bought it. It was one of the things about Fundyism that never sat well with me, and I usually rejected. I recall even telling a teacher at the fundy school, straight to his face, if my dog had no soul, and wasn't going to heaven, I wasn't going either.

And I still mean it. Said doggie is dead now, and his picture is on my ancestor altar. I believe animals have the same spirit as we do, and have something of a soul. Intelligence doesn't equal goodness or love, and that dog loves me. I love him back. And humans are "just" animals as well, biologically. We're mostly bald apes with big brains. I don't get how fundies somehow think they're so fucking special on this Earth.

For that matter, we share genes with everything living, from trees to grass, from puppies to posies. Could be my animist pagan side talking here, but I think all living things deserve reverence, even if one kills animals, you must kill SOMETHING to eat. So just say thank you. And love what lives.

[Атеист]

Animals haven't really changed much in my view. I never really heard much about them in the church before deconverting though.

For the most part, I have always put humans above the all other animals (as I assume wolves put other wolves above other animals, penguins put other penguins above other animals, etc.) and so I don't really feel so bad if I kill one. I don't enjoy causing harm to other animals of course, but if i was hungry enough my neighbor's pet rabbit would stop looking oh-so-cute sooner or later...

We evolved in a pretty neat fashion that has placed our species as the dominant creatures of the world (debatable in some ways I suppose), and its just a matter of instinct I think. I think that for the most part, fellow humans will always be in a higher position than other animals to us.

[Deva]

Yes, my view has changed. I was always uneasy with killing animals for sport but now I don't even like the idea of fishing or hunting for food unless there is no other kind of food available.

 

I know most here don't subscribe to the reincarnation idea, but the Tibetan Buddhist view is that we have all had innumerable past lives, most of which were animal forms. In fact, we are all so interconnected that anyone I meet is likely to have been my parent in a past life. I am still very carnivorous, but am coming more and more to regret it and wish I did not like meat so much. We are very disconnected from the process used to get meat to the table.

 

I know that if I actually had to kill the cow, chicken or lamb, I wouldn't do it unless there was no other food source available.

[Phanta]

Yes, my view has changed. I was always uneasy with killing animals for sport but now I don't even like the idea of fishing or hunting for food unless there is no other kind of food available.

 

I know most here don't subscribe to the reincarnation idea, but the Tibetan Buddhist view is that we have all had innumerable past lives, most of which were animal forms. In fact, we are all so interconnected that anyone I meet is likely to have been my parent in a past life. I am still very carnivorous, but am coming more and more to regret it and wish I did not like meat so much. We are very disconnected from the process used to get meat to the table.

 

I know that if I actually had to kill the cow, chicken or lamb, I wouldn't do it unless there was no other food source available.

 

I relate to both the love of meat and the regret. I do seek out locally grown, small-farm meat, but even so, it doesn't feel right.

 

If I actually had to kill the cow, chicken or lamb, I also wouldn't do it unless there was no other food source available. That's an uncomfortable reality for me when I indulge in eating meat.

 

Phanta

[Vixentrox]

No change for me. I was raised to be humane to animals, the importance of responsible hunting and fishing, if you kill one, do it as skillfully as you can. I grew up in the country so we had a reverance for nature but also were able to see the ugly side to nature as well, unlike many an idiot that think animals are some noble creature. Humans are an animal and we are a top predator. Before it was god that made us that way. Now I know it was evolution. Top predators kill thier prey and are not remorseful about; and niether should we be.

[foolish girl]

I was taught the whole "animals have no souls" line, and how animals have no rights, but I never bought it. It was one of the things about Fundyism that never sat well with me, and I usually rejected. I recall even telling a teacher at the fundy school, straight to his face, if my dog had no soul, and wasn't going to heaven, I wasn't going either.

And I still mean it. Said doggie is dead now, and his picture is on my ancestor altar. I believe animals have the same spirit as we do, and have something of a soul. Intelligence doesn't equal goodness or love, and that dog loves me. I love him back. And humans are "just" animals as well, biologically. We're mostly bald apes with big brains. I don't get how fundies somehow think they're so fucking special on this Earth.

For that matter, we share genes with everything living, from trees to grass, from puppies to posies. Could be my animist pagan side talking here, but I think all living things deserve reverence, even if one kills animals, you must kill SOMETHING to eat. So just say thank you. And love what lives.

 

Wow.

 

Preach it sister! You are a sister, right ?

 

I became a vegetarian for health reasons, I get shingles, and it was happening all the time. Very uncomfortable. I learned that the extra work that my body did processing meat was stealing energy from my immune system. So I quit meat as an experiment, and I got better!

After a few weeks, I got bored with my food, so i googled vegetarian recipes, and forums and such. That is when I saw the footage. All of the stuff out there about how mass production slaughter houses operate. I saw what they do. It made me sick. It hurt.

It was an easy decision to not "go back to meat".

 

I was thick into deconversion at that point. I had this conversation with my husband about the horrible things that I had seen/learned , and he was like "oh well".

"Wait....WHAT?"

He said it didn't concern him as much as saving souls. Like, I shouldn't invest emotional energy in this problem, when people could be going to hell.

 

*SNORT.....SNARL*

 

He said he was more concerned about the soul of the person kicking the baby cow in the head, than the cow.

That is not logical thinking. Although he sounds like it from this story, my husband is not a bastard. This is the direct result of christian upbringing.

Fuck superiority.

Damn, just "talking" about it pissed me off again!

 

Anyway, this was a BIG nail, nay - a STAKE in the coffin of my decomposing devotion to the bible's god.

[foolish girl]

P.S. Through the eyes of evolution, I see how eating meat benefited us. Things are changing now though. For the most part our food is not hunted with respect. Now it comes from these slaughterhouses and magically appears in the grocery store, all wrapped up and not even looking like itself.

We cook it, forget to put it away and toss out the left overs. We are throwing them away.

Just like our sleep cycles are changing, because of electricity- I think that with all that we have, our food choices can evolve as well.

 

I haven't taken many opportunities to voice these feelings, so if it is preachy or whiny- please excuse!

[Snakefoot]

Nope. Animals are resources--or nuisances. Use and manage them wisely like any other resource.

[Voice]

My views have changed over the years, but I've always felt all life forms have a life force that can be called a "soul". As a christian, my empathetic abilities were seared, and I was encouraged to disregard recognition of a life force within animals. Now I see that view as egocentric and dangerous, one that endeavors to numb a part of our brains that developed for a reason - the center for empathic awareness.

[RankStranger]

Yeah, I no longer see us humans as 'set apart' from other animals. We're just another critter.

 

But I wouldn't say that I feel any sort of kinship or anything with animals. I'll eat a burger without remorse just like a bear will eat a salmon or a hippy without remorse. And like many of my fellow carnivores & omnivores, I kinda enjoy killing and dismembering the critters I eat. It's like taking the thing apart to see how it works.

[Guest ephymeris]

I've always empathized & been compassionate to the living animals all around me, in the past few years I've limited my daily meat consumption & primarily pick seafood as my meat choice. Otherwise I eat humanely raised, free range meat or tofu. I don't think this has much to do with my deconversion which happened nearly 10 years ago so much as it is my own education, increased sense of responsibility for our world, and a desire to avoid excess & cruelty.

 

I still eat meat because I'm not sold on the idea that it's healthy to completely abstain (though I realize many people survive doing so) and I feel that to feed myself, death of something is unavoidable whether it's bacteria or plants or even animals that sacrifice their home so I can have the fields that grow my veggies & soybeans. I read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" some time ago that focuses on how complicated it is to "do the right thing" in regards to your diet. I just do the best I can, try to be humane, eat responsible portions, and respect the sacrifices made so I can eat.

 

Overall, I don't know if I would have ended up in my current mindset if I was still christian so I guess deconverting made room in my conscience to stop focusing on me and my precious soul and jezus's ego needs to care about my world as a whole. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.

 

**edited to reduce redundancy

[JadedAtheist]

I like animals and have sympathy for them but regardless of that I consider them inferior to humanity simply because we as a race are apex-predators. We are at the top of the food chain. Then there is of course are mental faculties. I would differ completely with say PETA where I remember one of their members saying "A rat is a pig is a dog is a boy". We're on a whole another level and comparing humanity to any animal in that way is spurious. As well I feel no qualms eating meat. It's absolutely delicious and I don't know how I'd survive without it. I basically keep the chicken industry of Australia running solely on my purchases

[The Seeker]

It's great that someone brought this up, I'm one who has radically changed his view of animals from deconverting. As I grew up, answers to simple questions like "If we go to Heaven when we die, where do the animals go?" were never satisfying but I somehow still managed to adopt the Christian worldview that animals were accessory to the Creation and only meant to be used as resources or pets by us. I lived a human-centered life and almost never really thought of them.

 

Ever since I deconverted and after I met certain friends, I started developing a growing interest in non-human animal life. I've watched many documentaries on the subject, read a lot too, and become very passionate about it. I am fascinated by the mysterious way in which animals develop complex mechanisms and behavior in order to survive. I have become amazed at everything that is happening in nature even as I type this, in the jungle, at the dessert, under the sea (specially under the sea). I am re-amazed also by their physical beauty and their role at keeping "the Balance".

 

I think most Christians miss out a lot in this aspect of life, explaining the wonderful animal kingdom with God's unending and almighty creativity. Since it's such a short and concrete explanation, it quickly washes out the possibility of being amazed by nature (plants are crazyness, too). When you turn to evolution for an explanation, it is so fascinating that one can't help but to wonder and gasp. I now understand that we're not the ultimate product of creation, that we co-exist with all of these various forms of life who are actively evolving as well. I also now understand that fundamentally speaking, we remain equal to them and in no way superior, and that they too have developed some form of intelligence that doesn't involve verbal communication but can be as remarkable as ours -as shown, for example, by a pack of killer whales hunting some seals.

 

I guess I can say that this renewed interest in animals has very much helped me towards finding a new spirituality in that I keep believing in miracles, not the ones that defy natural laws, but the ones that are happening right now as life continues to spread. And it is this miracles that keep my spirituality alive post-Christianism. Have you noticed how little does the Bible says about animals and how they live.

 

Which is why the only Bibles that I regard in an almost sacred light now are biology books.

[Mister Pappy]

What's your view on the "value" of animals or anything nonhuman?

I enjoyed reading your post. You are very intuitive for a young lady of your years - impressive. This is one of my favorite subjects. I see all living things as being related, made of the same elements, nursing the breast of the same mother - Earth. Many creatures I have adopted as brothers and sisters - the bear, the elk, the deer, for examples. I believe we are intrinsically the same thing. The Earth - the entire universe is one living, breathing thing of which you and I are but a tiny, microscopic, cellular particle. I am glad you brought this up.

[Voice]

I'm encouraged that so many of you have overcome the separatist superiority complex of christian mindset.

 

Deva, do you think dogs have to be human before they can be dogs? Sometimes it seems like it. Then what if you could be reincarnated as your own pet and enjoy being taken care of by yourself? I would not want to have to be my first dog. I was such an idiot.

 

Rank Stranger hilariously pointed something out which seems quite a few of you might argue against. I don't believe humans are the "top" of a food chain. The food chain is a circle - or sphere if you will. It has no top, no bottom. It is infinite. Humans eat bacteria and bacteria eat humans. Bears do eat hippies. Consider also the crock, the alligator, giant cats, whales, sharks and squid.

 

As far as who has superior intelligence, I have further arguments. In recent years I've come to believe that octopus (and squid and perhaps other sea creatures) may in fact have intelligence superior to humans.

"Oh shit, what's this, someone saying an animal could have a superior intelligence?!" Yes. The more we study octopus, the more I'm convinced they are a superior intelligence. Start with their brains. I'll let you do the research. If you open your minds to the possibility, it's really cool. it's humbling. It's the ultimate severance from christian indoctrination and egocentrism, just to consider it a possibility. If you ever get a chance, have a conversation with an octopus some time. it doesn't require speech. it's hard to deny their powers of telepathy once you meet one.

Yet with this in mind, I'm still willing to eat octopus given the opportunity. I ate a whole one once (eyes and brain included) and then had a very interesting dream that lasted for 3 real time hours.

As a devout omnivore, I also eat insects (beetles, grasshoppers, ants by the thousands) but am still able to help a spider out the door, or see to it that unearthed worms make it safely back into the soil.

 

More power to vegetarians. I tried that and got skinny and depressed. Eating bugs was way better for me than that.

[Deva]

Deva, do you think dogs have to be human before they can be dogs? Sometimes it seems like it. Then what if you could be reincarnated as your own pet and enjoy being taken care of by yourself? I would not want to have to be my first dog. I was such an idiot.

 

No, but they may have been, and probably were human once. There is no limitation on where and in what form one can be reincarnated into. It would be any sentient being. It is said in Tibetan texts that if you could see all your bodies when you were various insects, the pile of insect bodies would be higher than the highest mountain peak! It is not thought to be a good thing to be a dog, however, even a pampered pet. The animal world is considered one of the lower realms because they cannot be taught dharma - not hopeless however, since they may return to the human world and having the close company of humans may accelerate that opportunity. Please don't debate me on these ideas, that is what the Tibetan view is and I am not sure how much of it I subscribe to.

 

Interesting idea about being reincarnated as my own pet. Hadn't thought of that before. Could be, since one can be reincarnated into multiple forms (what is that saying? -"I am large, I contain multitudes"). The idea would tend to increase one's care of and compassion for said pet.

[HappyChef]

Being a member of PETA(People Eating Tasty Animals)should be a clue as to my outlook.I make a living in the food industry,so I cook what guests pay for.

 

I see animals as equal in their right to exsist,but humans can not exsist without changing the world around them.So they fall into the category of resources.We must be responsible in our use of them.I held this stance in the "church" and outside of it.

 

I have also been on the bloody and dark side of animal use in medical education.Pigs were used in our Advanced Trauma Life Support clinicals. Traumatic wounds were inflicted on live pigs(gunshots,stabs,and burns)and we had to treat them if they survived you passed the clinical and if not you failed.(all were euthanized at the end of class)

 

A lot of people see this as inhumane abuse,deplorable and evil in the extreme.These clinicals provided the closest thing to a real trauma involving humans as possible,including the emotional,spiritual and psychological trauma to the RESCUERS.I cried like a baby when I got home alone.(My pig died the first time,so I had to take the class again.)This was training at its most raw and real,I SAVED lives as a direct result of it.A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s),because I have been in the middle of the scenario.

 

Animals are what we need them to be and we must use them justly and responsibly,our survival depends on it.