Animals

[OpheliaGinger]

Deva, do you think dogs have to be human before they can be dogs? Sometimes it seems like it. Then what if you could be reincarnated as your own pet and enjoy being taken care of by yourself? I would not want to have to be my first dog. I was such an idiot.

 

Since Deva did reply, I don't feel like I'm stepping in her place but adding a different perspective. The domestic dog evolved alongside us for hundreds of thousands of years plus we directed their evolution by selecting the traits we saw as most desirable (being able to be handled well being chief among them). They appear like little humans in fur coats because we molded them that way.

 

 

A lot of people see this as inhumane abuse,deplorable and evil in the extreme.These clinicals provided the closest thing to a real trauma involving humans as possible,including the emotional,spiritual and psychological trauma to the RESCUERS.I cried like a baby when I got home alone.(My pig died the first time,so I had to take the class again.)This was training at its most raw and real,I SAVED lives as a direct result of it.A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s),because I have been in the middle of the scenario.

 

I don't know how long ago that was for you, but I think they use digital analogs now instead of live pigs (I know they still use dead pigs as human analogs in forensics investigations). I recall seeing mannequins that have programs in them that mimic certain trauma responses. Since pigs are so much like humans when it comes to structure, I can definitely see how using a live pig would do more to teach how to react in trauma situations because you see an animal in distress and thus not wanting to respond to your orders.

[Mister Pappy]

A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s)

Is this a proven fact or your opinion? I would also have to ask, "Worth more to whom?" I venture to say that the pig thinks otherwise.

[Snakefoot]

A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s)

Is this a proven fact or your opinion? I would also have to ask, "Worth more to whom?" I venture to say that the pig thinks otherwise.

Worth more to any rational, thinking human. One human life saved by the death of 1000 pigs is more than fair exchange. That human has unbridled potential. The pigs' only potential is bacon and ham.

 

The pigs doesn't "think" anything. It is unaware of its own mortality.

[RankStranger]

A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s)

Is this a proven fact or your opinion? I would also have to ask, "Worth more to whom?" I venture to say that the pig thinks otherwise.

 

Yes, it's an opinion. There are pigs out there that would gladly eat YOU... demonstrating their own opinion on the matter even if they can't verbalize it.

 

Snakefoot, critters have brains. They think. It's been demostrated over and over... and for you to claim otherwise seems like an article of faith. They don't necessarily think LIKE we do, nor do they generally have our capacity for thinking... but they have functional brains nonetheless. We're just another critter. We are particularly smart critters, but a functional brain isn't exclusive to humans.

 

To claim that a critter is just mechanically reacting implies to me that their brains must function differently than ours. But they're structured similarly, and they react the same way if you put a bullet into one (they turn off, generally). Why is it such a stretch to think that a critter could think & feel similarly- even if said thoughts and feelings are quantitatively and/or qualitatively less developed than our own?

[Mister Pappy]

One human life saved by the death of 1000 pigs is more than fair exchange.

I understand that this is obviously your personal set of values, but I don't think you have any science to back up your creative math above. It is all based on your own emotions, much like the Christards base their system of beliefs upon emotions and not fact. To say that because I may not agree with you, makes me irrational or unthinking, sounds very much like Christardation also.

 

That human has unbridled potential.

Potential for what that is so different than the pig?

 

The pigs' only potential is bacon and ham.

According to your own needs or those of the pigs?

 

It is unaware of its own mortality.

Are you speaking from you own personal experience as a pig? You are either aware of some science that I am not, you have once been a pig, or you are making shit up to support your theory.

[Snakefoot]

One human life saved by the death of 1000 pigs is more than fair exchange.

I understand that this is obviously your personal set of values, but I don't think you have any science to back up your creative math above. It is all based on your own emotions, much like the Christards base their system of beliefs upon emotions and not fact. To say that because I may not agree with you, makes me irrational or unthinking, sounds very much like Christardation also.

 

That human has unbridled potential.

Potential for what that is so different than the pig?

 

The pigs' only potential is bacon and ham.

According to your own needs or those of the pigs?

 

It is unaware of its own mortality.

Are you speaking from you own personal experience as a pig? You are either aware of some science that I am not, you have once been a pig, or you are making shit up to support your theory.

I am not the pantheist-cum-animal worshiper in this dogfight. My position is 180 degrees from an emotional one. Animals are automatons functioning on a simple program called instinct. And, yes, this is demonstrable scientifically/experimentally.

 

But I already wrote probably 15,000 words on this elsewhere in this forum, and am not disposed to repeat it. No doubt one the other animal worshipers here can direct you to it.

[Mister Pappy]

Animals are automatons functioning on a simple program called instinct.

Assuming you are right, your point is unproved - that these "more simple" creatures have less value. I propose that they have less value to YOU and others who think the way you do, but their inherent value to themselves or others is something you cannot know. I don't care to read your online book on the subject. The vitriol here is quite enough.

[Voice]

The pigs doesn't "think" anything. It is unaware of its own mortality.

 

I have to disagree.

First, pigs have brains. Brains are used for thinking.

Second, I would like to present some data which suggests the contrary. I will describe a little sadistic fun I used to have with the young pigs while working on a pig farm. Sometimes I would pick up and hold a young pig that was maturing, test the thickness of its thigh and say "mmm, ham..." Every time, the little pig would say "uh oh!" and scurry out of my grasp. One of the things they all used to say was "uh oh!" followed by a frantic scurry.

 

The pigs were very good at anticipating what humans were going to do next in general.

Behaviorally, they demonstrated methods of verbal communication, thought, and I believe some form of awareness of their mortality. I'm sure it's not as mythical as how we think of it, but they fear death and therefore must be aware of their mortality.

[Ouroboros]

Worth more to any rational, thinking human. One human life saved by the death of 1000 pigs is more than fair exchange. That human has unbridled potential. The pigs' only potential is bacon and ham.

Worth is a human concept. We define what worth is. We decide that the worth of the pig is bacon and ham. Humans have decided that humans are worth more than animals. That's just how it is. There's no universal law, written in the fabric of space or in the cores of the stars, that declares our worth over anything. Aliens from another planet could land on Earth one day and declare they're worth more than us.

 

The pigs doesn't "think" anything. It is unaware of its own mortality.

They think, but not complex thoughts like us. A brain is the device that constructs thoughts. If they don't think, they have no brain.

 

And how do we know if pigs have a sense of their own mortality or not? Has anyone constructed a pig-latin translator, so they can ask?

[Ouroboros]

I am not the pantheist-cum-animal worshiper in this dogfight. My position is 180 degrees from an emotional one. Animals are automatons functioning on a simple program called instinct. And, yes, this is demonstrable scientifically/experimentally.

Eh... the scientifically and experimentally evidence show that some animals have higher thinking. It's been proven over and over again, scientifically and experimentally. I'm not sure how you can take on the mantle of being the spokesperson for science, especially when science says the opposite.

 

Apes can co-operate, create tools, understand spoken language and learn up to 3,000 words, and much more. They even have handed down cultures and simple ethics. Things like this are well known within the scientific community.

 

And apes have been proven to have a self-awareness. The latest discovery is that there seems to be indication that elephants have self-awareness too.

 

Edit: Also remember that humans are mammalian animals. If by your definition no animal can think but are only automatons, then by sheer logical conclusion humans are too. You have to qualify your statements like "some" or "most" animals and you would be closer to correct. But to include all animals in this "automaton" class means that you include all animals.

 

Edit: And on another note, just because I trust scientific facts in this particular discussion does not make me a pantheist-cum-animal lover anymore than it would make you a blood-thirsty psychopath. I think your problem with the scientific facts stems from your fear that this would somehow make me judge you or feel that you are immoral. I don't care if you hunt animals for a living, hobby, protection, or sheer enjoyment. It's not up to me to judge. I used to fish too. But if you would start hunting chimpanzees just for fun, I might start thinking a lot less about you. If you're hunting deer, bear, or wild hogs, it wouldn't bother me one iota. So perhaps your extreme reaction to what science says is based on this fear? I don't know. Only you do.

 

But I already wrote probably 15,000 words on this elsewhere in this forum, and am not disposed to repeat it. No doubt one the other animal worshipers here can direct you to it.

I guess it was you and I that had that debate. I still know you're wrong. Yes, know, not guess or believe. Apes have been shown to plan and execute their plans.

 

On another note, if we would assume you were right, then the whole science of evolution of the brain would break into pieces. Evolution as such would be declared untrue, and the only explanation to our brains and minds would be God given. Evolution does not subscribe to supernatural events for things to come into existence. And the evolution of mind, thoughts, tool making, art, etc, is documented through archeology.

 

But, I don't care. You believe whatever you want.

[Mister Pappy]

Worth is a human concept. We define what worth is.

Hans ... In my opinion, you are dead on target here! As an example, why is it that we have a problem with people who torture poodles and kittens, but frogs and moths are fair game? The poodle and kitten evoke happy, fuzzy, warm emotional responses from humans. By default, the lives of these animals become more "important" - to the end result of receiving legal protection. The frog is ... well ... a frog. I am glad I am not a frog .... at least not today.

 

In a fair world, a poodle steak or kitten bacon is just as tasty - maybe more nutritious - than a beef burger. Many cultures agree and show no favoritism. There is no way that this is NOT an emotional response that Snake is describing. If not, then there would be no reason not to use kittens or poodles in burn or gunshot victim paramedic testing, instead of pigs. Snake protests that his view is 180 degrees opposite of emotional. I thoroughly disagree.

[OpheliaGinger]

We have all ready been through this rigmarole about animals and Snakefoot's sentiment on them, which basically amounts to animals (except humans) are shit and humans are god. He gets beat in the balls every time he speaks about animals.

[Mister Pappy]

We have all ready been through this rigmarole about animals and Snakefoot's sentiment on them ...

I didn't know that ... my apologies for "beating the dead horse" - pun intended.

[Yrth]

I smite spiders with a burning hatred otherwise unknown to my emotional spectrum.

 

2 months ago, I spotted one snaking toward my feet.

Cheeks pressed tight to toilet seat, legs and adrenaline surged up and UP --

Paranoia will recede, but the ceiling stain may last awhile.

 

true story.

[OpheliaGinger]

I smite spiders with a burning hatred otherwise unknown to my emotional spectrum.

 

Then I shall smite you for smiting spiders.

[RankStranger]

 

I am not the pantheist-cum-animal worshiper in this dogfight. My position is 180 degrees from an emotional one. Animals are automatons functioning on a simple program called instinct. And, yes, this is demonstrable scientifically/experimentally.

 

But I already wrote probably 15,000 words on this elsewhere in this forum, and am not disposed to repeat it. No doubt one the other animal worshipers here can direct you to it.

 

 

I don't really buy into the thinking vs. feeling dichotomy that lots of us Americans are fond of (particularly people who are politically conservative). But you clearly have an emotional investment here- how else to explain this obtuseness? Hans makes a good point about evolution, and I KNOW you're smart enough to see it.

 

I know that you're a hunter... is that why you're so invested in the notion that critters don't think? 'Cause you couldn't live with hunting a thinking/feeling critter?

[Ouroboros]

Just for fun, here's a Nova episode about human v ape intelligence: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/nature/ape-genius.html

 

There are one or two things in there that I'm a little reserved about, but pretty much everything else is head-on.

 

And this is what the scientists believe.

 

(Besides, if no animal can think or feel, and the human species is a mammal animal, the conclusion must be that we can't think or feel either.)

[HappyChef]

A human life IS worth more than the painful death of a pig(s)

Is this a proven fact or your opinion? I would also have to ask, "Worth more to whom?" I venture to say that the pig thinks otherwise.

A fact,proven with judicial precident to support it.No one files wrongful death cases on behalf of a pig.

[Deva]

http://www.pbs.org/w...l-episode/5977/

 

 

I watched this episode of Nature recently on the intelligence of crows. Researchers say they have the equivalent of the higher apes in intelligence. One of the most intelligent animals. In one part of the program, it is shown that the bird learned a sequence of actions in order to retrieve a piece of food. It was amazing to watch. They naturally make tools out of sticks in the wild but clearly the bird was reasoning how long the stick had to be to reach into the box and get the food out. It used a tool to get another more suitable tool (a longer stick) to eventually get the food out of the box. That is planning.

 

They also have learned the stop/go sequence of traffic lights.