An Always Christian Now Doubting

[Autumn girl]

I found this forum after reading the book Trusting Doubt by Valerie Tarico. I've perused the forum for a few weeks and have been amazed at how many other people are going through similar things as me. Here's a little bit of my story along with some questions at the end:

 

When I was four years old I "asked Jesus into my heart." It sounds ridiculous now (did I just say that?! I never would have allowed myself to say that before!), especially since I have young children of my own now. Tomorrow I turn 33 years old and all I can think is that it's ironic that I seem to find myself leaving Christianity at this particular age...the age of Jesus when he died (or did he? and was he ever actually alive? ugh). I went to Christian school from pre-school through 12th grade. I've always gone to church, and even went this morning actually (more about that later).

 

I've had my doubts about lots of things in the past but never allowed myself to look for answers from anyone who wasn't a Christian. That is, until last month. I began reading Trusting Doubt, then Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnel, then Godless by Dan Barker, and now I'm reading Jesus, Interrupted. I have other books waiting for me at the library. I've also watched lots of NonStampCollector's youtube videos. I'm flooded with thoughts and emotions about everything I'm learning.

 

My husband is very nervous about what's going on with me and says he's willing to look into everything like I am, but he hates reading and researching, so that has already proven to be a difficult thing for him to take on. I love him so much. He's my high school sweetheart, and we've grown up together. Always together. Now we might be growing apart. There's a chance though that he'll come around after finding out what I'm finding out.

 

My four children, ages almost 9 years old, 5 yrs. 2 yrs., and 10 months, go to church every week. The oldest two are also very involved with AWANA, a weekly children's program that focuses on bible verse memorization. My five year old daughter said to me the other day, "Mommy, Julia (her baby sister) doesn't know about God and Jesus yet. Isn't that amazing?" My heart sank. I thought, "Honey, I feel like I don't even know about God and Jesus anymore."

 

At church this morning I felt so much frustration, confusion, sadness, and concern. Then I felt anger. The guest speaker spoke all about missions and how the need is great but the workers are few. He relayed stories about how in the middle east God (or god?) is showing himself strong on behalf of the Muslims who are wondering if he's the true god. There's lots of supernatural stories that make me even more confused. He relayed one: a muslim man wanted the missionaries to tell him one personal thing about himself that only he would know. If god were to reveal this to them, this one thing that they would have no other way of knowing unless it was from god, then he would believe. Well, during prayer time later that day these missionaries (who were uncomfortable with his "test") asked god to reveal them anything about this man that would help him believe. One of the missionaries began writing things down on a pad of paper, one by one, all the way up to a whopping 15 things. This Muslim man was read these 15 things and they were all true, all extremely personal, and there was no way for these men to know about them. Things like financial trouble, extra marital relationships, his current marriage, etc. This Muslim man said that this god of theirs was the one true god and has believed ever since.

 

What the heck do I do with a story like that? And how ridiculously difficult it was to sit through this message, with my eight year old son next to me, when I'm so frustratingly confused myself!

 

Then, after the guest speaker's message, he showed a video that made me feel even more emotional. It was a video showing many middle eastern people and their religious traditions, along with the poverty and seeming hopelessness they experience. The music was gripping - the lyrics and beautiful melody was enough to make me start balling if it weren't for all the people around me. I did tear up, mainly from frustration over the conflicting emotions/thoughts I was experiencing. After this video, which stated that now we cant' leave from here without knowing the truth of the need for people to help evangalize. My pastor, who is a really kind, loving man, did say (because he truly believes this!) that we'd be sinning if we didn't do something, each one of us, about this truth after we left here today.

 

I practically ran out of there. I gathered my children from Sunday school, loaded them up in the van, wanting to have a good cry, but then...a flat tire was discovered. Ugh. Thankfullyl someone fixed it all up for me (my husband was working - he's a firefighter/paramedic with Los Angeles City), but dang, I had first wanted to just speed away but couldn't!

 

Here's some of the questions my husband has and that others I know (such as my mom and dad) would have if I told them I was leaving Christianity:

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

 

My children are fighting like crazy right now, so I've got to get off this computer. Thanks for reading!

 

 

[LivingLife]

--snip--

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

The word religion is derived from the ancient French word relegare which means to bind up. Bondage to a faith is thus no claim to fame. Look it up

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

Such as?

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

What about the prophecies that did not come true? Much of the alleged fulfilment is mere twisting of events of a secular nature viz. Israel and 1948 and all of the "end ov teh wurlde" predictions by the snake oil salesmen

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

The real question is "did jesus ever exist?" Seems when one goes down that avenue of research, one finds the evidence lacking sorely, the alleged grave is just that alleged. Evidence presented in the gospels would not stand up to scrutiny in a court of law

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

Because hell is translated from the words, Sheol, Hades which are references to the grave/realm of the dead, Gehenna which was a rubbish dump outside of Jerusalem, now a grassy park and lastly Tartarus and place reserved for the devil and his demons. Only the grave assertions of "hell" are real, there is no fiery pit. Some personal research may be required.

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

Mythras is a good start.

My children are fighting like crazy right now, so I've got to get off this computer. Thanks for reading!

 

Welcome to the forum. I hope this whets your appetite for knowledge. The way out is by studying your bible w/o bias. It is how most of us arrived here.

 

Here is a pic of hell today

 

 

More here

[TheSecretAtheist]

Hi Sarah, welcome to the forum! (I dunno if I'm the right one to say this first, since I just posted my first post a few hours ago, but there it is!)

 

I understand your position to a certain extent, since I've recently admitted that I'm an atheist, but our situations are also vastly different. You are only now exploring your doubts, you have a husband and children to worry about. I don't envy you that, but I know that you can work through these things. I'd urge you to read one of Dan Barker's books. He was an evangelical minister who, after many years of deeply committed service to God began to study deeper and found that his faith wasn't based in truth. I'm reading "Godless" right now, I've also heard good things about his first book. "Losing Faith in Faith."

 

As to the questions, I don't claim that these are the only or best answers, and I doubt that having someone tell you the answers to your questions will ever assure you as much as coming to your own answers to these but... I'll give you a few ideas.

 

1. Just because the majority of people believe something does not make it true. There was a time when the majority of people believed that the Earth was flat and the planets, sun, and starts revolved around it.

 

2. The answer to number one can shed a lot of light on this one, as well. Religion, especially the Christian religion, is deeply seated in our culture, it is hard to go against almost 2000 years of tradition no matter how smart you are.

 

3. The old testament prophesies were around and well known to most of the writers of the New Testament. It isn't hard to write your history so that it lines up with prophecies that were written. Also prophecies are generally vague enough that one can interpret many different courses of events to match them.

 

4. How many bodies do we know the exact location of 2000 years later? Where is Paul's body? Did Paul rise from the dead as well? If a person is murdered and their body hidden we may never find it. Does this mean they have been raised from the dead?

 

5. This is a potentially big one. For me, I simply no longer believe in hell. Death is just a natural end to life, nothing to be feared. That is one thing, though, that I doubt anyone else can answer for you and you'll have to come to peace with it on your own.

 

6. Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth

 

These aren't intended so much as answers for your questions (except the last one) as much as counter-points to think on. I am sure others here can offer more.

[Ouroboros]

Welcome Sarah. And to help you one your journey, here are some of the answers I would argue to your husband's questions:

 

Here's some of the questions my husband has and that others I know (such as my mom and dad) would have if I told them I was leaving Christianity:

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

About 1/3rd of the world is Christian. But it consists of many, about 30,000 different, denominations of Christians, but one of the largest group in the category "Christian" in the world, is the Catholic Church. So if the largest means truth, then the largest group inside Christianity must be true, i.e. Catholicism.

 

Secondly, Islam is almost as large as Christianity today, and it's more uniform and homogeneous, so it wouldn't surprise me if there are just as many Sunni or Shi'it Muslims as there are Catholics.

 

But lastly, the largest group of people in the world (Muslims + other) are not Christians. About 2/3rds (66%) of the world is not Christian but belong to other beliefs or no beliefs at all. So by "largest is true" argument, non-Christianity is truer than Christianity.

 

Here's something interesting to know. Only 70-90% of Christian Bible scholars believe the resurrection story is true. It means that somewhere between 10 and 30% do not believe it. How can it be that so many who studied the roots of Christianity and the historicity actually doubt the facts? If it was so obviously true, how come they didn't learn those obvious facts during years of scholarly studies? Many of them even lost their faith while studying the history of Jesus and the Bible. I think it tells us something.

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

Just like there are brilliant minds who do not believe in Christianity. Plato was a wise philosopher, he was a Greek pagan, not a Christian. Brilliance doesn't mean a person is always right about everything. There are books about how smart people tend to have blind spots.

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

The fulfillment of the prophesies were written (made up) to fulfill the prophesies.

 

It's just like if I would write: Tomorrow Bob will buy a gallon of milk.

 

Then someone writes a story tomorrow about how Bob (a fictitious person) bought a gallon of milk.

 

When you write stories, it's easy to write the stories to fit the expectation.

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

Where is the body of Plato, Socrates, Hitler, Mohammad, or Julius Caesar? I don't know. With that argument, they must be alive and the son's of God.

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

It's a bit more complicated to explain. The fear takes some time to disappear for some, for others it goes quickly. I lost my fear in Hell before I even de-converted. I realized that God (who I believe in at that time) can't be so evil that he sends unbelievers there.

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

I recommend books by Bart Ehrman and Robert Price.

[TheSecretAtheist]

Here'n There has a great point about studying the bible without bias. I cam to atheism by studying theology and the bible, looking for truth.

[GhostOfPerdition]

Hello Sarah! I'm brand new here as well but I would like to say welcome! I hope you find the answers you're looking for. I will do my best to answer the ones you have posted.

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

 

Just the fact that there are multiple religions means that one of them has to be number one. This doesn't mean any of them have to be true.

 

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

 

The human brain is pretty much wired for belief and is incredibly easy to fool (magicains rely on this fact. Google James Randi). Just because a person is brilliant in a given field does not mean that they are always correct. I would assume that there are brilliant minds associated with many religions.

 

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

 

 

I honestly can't think of any biblical prophecies that have come true. If you have examples I would be glad to look into them.

 

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

 

I believe this is a false dichotomy logical fallacy, with a bit of a false premise as well. If we do indeed take as a given (which it is most certainty not, hence the false premise) that Jesus died on the cross, that doesn't necessarily mean that we would know where his body is. The fallacy comes when we assume that there is no other explanation for the missing Jesus body. There could be many explanations depending on what can be show to be historically accurate.

 

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

 

This question has no easy answer. There are a few threads that I have seen on this forum that deal with this very question. I suggest you read them.

 

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

 

Unfortunately, I am not sure on this one.

 

 

Once again, welcome! I hope I have been of some assistance.

[Autumn girl]

I began reading Trusting Doubt, then Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnel, then Godless by Dan Barker, and now I'm reading Jesus, Interrupted. I have other books waiting for me at the library. I've also watched lots of NonStampCollector's youtube videos.

 

Thanks for the responses so far. Some of you recommended books to me, some of which I've read. I thought I'd post again (above) what I've read so far so no one would miss it. Jesus, Interrupted is by Bart Erhman.

 

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

[Autumn girl]

I began reading Trusting Doubt, then Leaving the Fold by Marlene Winnel, then Godless by Dan Barker, and now I'm reading Jesus, Interrupted. I have other books waiting for me at the library. I've also watched lots of NonStampCollector's youtube videos.

 

Thanks for the responses so far. Some of you recommended books to me, some of which I've read. I thought I'd post again (above) what I've read so far so no one would miss it. Jesus, Interrupted is by Bart Erhman.

 

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

 

Clarification - I haven't *finished* Jesus, Interrupted yet. I'm only 1/3 of the way through so far. It's very compelling, as are all of the books I've read.

[TheSecretAtheist]

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

 

For me, I have to accept such stories with skepticism. You weren't there to see it, and even if you did it could have been something other than what was observed. How many people each day are taken in by "psychics" and "mediums" who know things about them that no one else possibly could? You should do some research about James Randi (I think he was already mentioned above) and his work debunking this sort of thing.

 

Often we ignore perfectly acceptable natural explanations to believe the fanciful. We are too easily fooled, it seems to be a part of how we work.

[TheSecretAtheist]

Oh, and sorry about mentioning a book you have already read! I missed that the first time around!

[Ouroboros]

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

There are two sides to this story.

 

1) It could be embellished. Something I've learned over the years is that Christians tend to exaggerate the stories a lot. They treat their stories like fishermen treat the stories about their catch, each year the catch in the past becomes an inch bigger.

 

2) The missionary could have researched the Muslim man without revealing how he did it. He could be flat out lying about God telling him the facts.

 

3) Some very skilled cold-readers can extract information from a person, without the person realizing that he or she is giving it to the cold-reader. Body language, tone of voice, choice of words, unintentional responses, etc.

[TheSecretAtheist]

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

3) Some very skilled cold-readers can extract information from a person, without the person realizing that he or she is giving it to the cold-reader. Body language, tone of voice, choice of words, unintentional responses, etc.

 

This is probably a topic that should be discussed elsewhere, and probably a huge can of worms but... I wonder how many ministers are skilled cold readers but don't even realize it? They chalk it up to "discernment" or a word from God when really all they have done is use the same skill that psychics and mediums and mentalists use. I mean, I am positive that there are people out there who use cold reading in order to fool believers, but do you think it possible that some of them use this skill without the intent to fool anyone, but are fooling themselves into believing that it is coming from God?

[★ Citsonga ★]

Greetings!

 

When I was four years old I "asked Jesus into my heart." It sounds ridiculous now (did I just say that?! I never would have allowed myself to say that before!), especially since I have young children of my own now.

 

Yeah, it's interesting how people want kids to "accept Jesus" when they're way too young to have any understanding of what it entails.

 

At church this morning I felt so much frustration, confusion, sadness, and concern. Then I felt anger. The guest speaker spoke all about missions and how the need is great but the workers are few. He relayed stories about how in the middle east God (or god?) is showing himself strong on behalf of the Muslims who are wondering if he's the true god. There's lots of supernatural stories that make me even more confused. He relayed one: a muslim man wanted the missionaries to tell him one personal thing about himself that only he would know. If god were to reveal this to them, this one thing that they would have no other way of knowing unless it was from god, then he would believe. Well, during prayer time later that day these missionaries (who were uncomfortable with his "test") asked god to reveal them anything about this man that would help him believe. One of the missionaries began writing things down on a pad of paper, one by one, all the way up to a whopping 15 things. This Muslim man was read these 15 things and they were all true, all extremely personal, and there was no way for these men to know about them. Things like financial trouble, extra marital relationships, his current marriage, etc. This Muslim man said that this god of theirs was the one true god and has believed ever since.

 

What the heck do I do with a story like that?

 

I'd treat it a just that: a "story."

 

Isn't it a bit ironic that these things always supposedly take place in places where you have no ability to investigate the claims? Hmmmm.....

 

Here's some of the questions my husband has and that others I know (such as my mom and dad) would have if I told them I was leaving Christianity:

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

 

This is an argument of "might makes right," but the reality is that it simply ain't so. And, as another pointed out, if you want to play the numbers game, the fact is that the majority of people in the world are not christians. Thus, by the logic of "might makes right," non-christianity is true and christianity is false.

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

 

How could so many brilliant minds not believe in christianity if it was true?

 

One interesting thing to note regarding this is that there have been studies that have shown that, on average, those with the highest IQs are the least religious and those with the lowest IQs are the most religious. Granted, there is a lot of gray area in between the two extremes where it goes either way, but the results of the two extremes seems a bit telling to me.

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

 

What about the fabricated prophetic fulfillments in the bible? You see, when I was questioning, I decided to take a closer look at some of the alleged fulfilled prophecies in the NT. That is actually what solidified my disbelief, because what I found was that over and over again NT authors took OT quotes completely out of context (sometimes even revising the wording in them) in order to fabricate prophetic fulfillments. Realizing that the original texts, when read in context, did not at all mean what the NT authors claimed shed a WHOLE new light on the matter.

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

 

This argument assumes the reliability of the gospel narratives, yet those narratives are quite contradictory, especially in the resurrection accounts!

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

 

Education regarding the development of the concept of hell is a good start. Check out chapter 13 of John Armstrong's online book "God Vs The Bible" (John's a deist): http://www.godvsthebible.com/chapter13

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

 

This is something I've been wanting to look at closer myself, so I don't have any suggestions directly related to that. I have had my eye on "Christianity Before Christ" by John Jackson, though: http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-Before-Christ-John-Jackson/dp/0910309205/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1287364847&sr=8-2

 

One thing I can recommend regarding the development of christianity, though, is another Bart Ehrman book, "Lost Christianities." That's a really good book.

 

Hope some of this helps. Good luck in your journey!

[Guest Valk0010]

That no testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous, than the fact, which it endeavours to establish; and even in that case there is a mutual destruction of arguments, and the superior only gives us an assurance suitable to that degree of force, which remains, after deducting the inferior.

That quote is from david hume.

 

 

 

http://wiki.ironchariots.org/index.php?title=Miracles_in_history

 

Yeah get the sentiment.

[Freedom from Guilt]

Some people have given you some excellent resources to debunk hell. Google it as well. I read a lot of articles that helped me. I think the number one thing that helped me get away from the belief in Hell, is that Hell (as we believe in it in Christianity) was NOT a Jewish Idea. That the god of the OT never mentioned everlasting damnation was very telling for me. Also, when you start researching into the subject you find that the idea of hell was a melting pot of ideas from other pagan religions of the time.

 

You can read Why I Believed HERE Which is another great resource during deconversion. I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Nonstampcollector.

 

Just keep reading, researching and asking questions. I'm married to a believer and have four kids 11 and under and they go to AWANAs as well. I READ alot about other Religions to them. We are also studying Evolution together as a family.

 

I have no answer for the missionary's claim about the muslim man. I've been apart of the prophetic world and people are (at times) able to read other peoples mail. I don't know how that happens but I don't let that force me to believe.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

freedom

[fullygruntled]

Bart Erhman is a great place to start. After you finish Jesus interrupted, go out and get Your inner fish by Neil Shubin. It will tell you where you really came from. I think an understanding of our past as human beings helps resolve any issues we might have about any gods in our lives.

 

Think about the possibility of a heaven or a hell. It's really absurd when you think about it. Could you be happy in heaven knowing friends and loved ones were in hell? And what kind of loving god sends you to hell for 3 trillion years for what you did in 60 or 70?? Does a soul retain its earthly consciousness with memories and if not, whats the point??

 

You'll find your way, good luck.

[Ouroboros]

This is probably a topic that should be discussed elsewhere, and probably a huge can of worms but... I wonder how many ministers are skilled cold readers but don't even realize it? They chalk it up to "discernment" or a word from God when really all they have done is use the same skill that psychics and mediums and mentalists use. I mean, I am positive that there are people out there who use cold reading in order to fool believers, but do you think it possible that some of them use this skill without the intent to fool anyone, but are fooling themselves into believing that it is coming from God?

I think you're spot on.

 

I suspect that there are some "psychic" even out there who do cold reading without knowing it. They believe they have the "gift" without realizing that somehow they're subconsciously picking up the signals from the other person.

[Franciscan Monkey]

At church this morning I felt so much frustration, confusion, sadness, and concern. Then I felt anger. The guest speaker spoke all about missions and how the need is great but the workers are few. He relayed stories about how in the middle east God (or god?) is showing himself strong on behalf of the Muslims who are wondering if he's the true god. There's lots of supernatural stories that make me even more confused. He relayed one: a muslim man wanted the missionaries to tell him one personal thing about himself that only he would know. If god were to reveal this to them, this one thing that they would have no other way of knowing unless it was from god, then he would believe. Well, during prayer time later that day these missionaries (who were uncomfortable with his "test") asked god to reveal them anything about this man that would help him believe. One of the missionaries began writing things down on a pad of paper, one by one, all the way up to a whopping 15 things. This Muslim man was read these 15 things and they were all true, all extremely personal, and there was no way for these men to know about them. Things like financial trouble, extra marital relationships, his current marriage, etc. This Muslim man said that this god of theirs was the one true god and has believed ever since.

 

What the heck do I do with a story like that? And how ridiculously difficult it was to sit through this message, with my eight year old son next to me, when I'm so frustratingly confused myself!

 

I doubt it is anywhere close to an truthful rendition of what actually happened. However, as others have mentioned, it may be a case of effective cold reading. Check out this video by Derren Brown. You can skip the clown part in the beginning.

 

Derren Brown - Cold Reading

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

 

I don't see why the one would have anything to do with the other.

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

 

And many brilliant minds don't believe in Christianity.

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

 

A few questions need to be asked when studying prophecy:

 

1. When was the prophecy actually written?

 

A classic example of this would be the book of Daniel. Scholars have determined that Daniel was written at a much later date than Biblical inerrantists would claim. This is based on the fact that Daniel gets many of the older history wrong (even though he supposedly lived through it), was more accurate around the actual time of his writing (167-164 BC), and very inaccurate after that.

 

2. Was the prophecy actually a prophecy?

 

By this I mean, did the original author intend the writing to be prophetic, or did a future writer read into the older passage a prophecy that just wasn't there? This appears to be the case in the how many believe that the crucifixion of Jesus (which probably didn't even happen) fulfills Psalm 22. I would suggest reading that passage and ask if it was intended to be prophetic, and if it even describes a crucifixion. I believe if you are honest with yourself, the answer to both questions will be, "No."

 

3. Did the fulfillment of the prophecy actually take place?

 

Yes, the NT may say that events happened a certain way, but do outside sources corraborate them? And do the gospels themselves contradict each other in order to make some prophecies "fit"? Matthew is especially guilty of this, changing the story from the ones recorded in the other gospels in order to make an apparent fulfillment of prophecy.

 

4. Is the prophecy self-fulfilling?

 

In other words, because the prophecy was made, is it then very likely that those events would occur. An example of this is the belief that many Christians hold that Israel must be reeastablished as a nation before Christ is to return. Of course, many Christians were actively trying to reestablish Israel as a nation since as early as the 1810's in order to fulfill this. It would've been unlikely that Israel would not have been reestablished at some point, given all the pressure.

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

 

Where are the bodies of most of the billons upon billions of other people who have died? Where are the bodies of other fictional characters?

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

 

I lost my fear of hell almost immediately upon deconverting. To me, once it was obvious that Christianity was false, why would I still believe in hell? However, many ex-Christians do struggle with this fear.

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

 

I would stay away from Acharya S. as her work seems pretty slipshod. I have read 101 Myths of the Bible, which had many examples of borrowing from other religions or other mythical stories. The author often goes too far in trying to make a connection, but in many of the cases it is quite obvious that the biblical story is made up.

 

The reason why I deconverted was from an in-depth study of the Bible. It was obvious that it was not written by a god of any sort. It is historically and scientifically inaccurate, internally contradictory, illogical, immoral, and mostly useless. I have posted the following questions or others like them, a few times on this website in response to Christians, and usually don’t get a response at all. When answering these questions, ask yourself, are the answers reasonable? How do the answers impact the alleged inerrancy of the Bible? By the way, there are hundreds of other problems contained in the Bible beyond this small sampling.

 

Why are there differing accounts of the cursing of the fig tree? Matthew 21:18-22, Mark 11:12-14, 20-24.

 

Why are there differing accounts of the death of Judas? Matthew 27:1-10, Acts 1:18-19.

 

Why did God prohibit Moses from entering Canaan after he smote the rock, when God had already prohibited Moses from entering Canaan on a previous occasion? Numbers 14:11-12, Numbers 20:12, Deuteronomy 1:37, Deuteronomy 3:23-26, Deuteronomy 4:21-22.

 

How did David take Goliath's head to Jerusalem in 1 Samuel 17:54 when he didn't conquer Jerusalem until much later in 2 Samuel 5:6-7?

 

Who incited David to take a census? II Samuel 24:1, I Chronicles 21:1.

 

Why is the story in Genesis 20:1-17 & 21:22-34 so similar to the one in Genesis 26:1-34?

 

How did the leaders of the families of Israel donate coins that weren't even in existence until over 400 years later? I Chronicles 29:7.

 

How did Abram pursue men as far as Dan, a city that didn't exist until well over 500 years later? Genesis 14:14, Judges 18:29.

 

What prophecy did Jesus fulfill when he was called a Nazarene? Matthew 21:24.

 

Is a man justified by faith, or by works? Romans 3:28, James 2:24.

 

How could Ruth, a Moabite, be allowed to become a part of the nation of Israel, and how could David, the great-grandson of Ruth, be allowed to be a king over Israel? Ruth 4:11-22, Deuteronomy 23:3-4, Nehemiah 13: 1-3, Ezra 9:1-2 & 10:1-44.

 

Why does Daniel call Belshazzar the son of Nebuchadnezzar, when he was not? In reality, Belshazzar was the third ruler of Babylon after Nebuchadnezzar, and he was actually just a co-ruler, or co-regent, with his father, Nabonidus. He was Assyrian, and unrelated to Nebuchadnezzar, a Chaldean. Daniel 5:2, 11.

 

Why does Daniel reference a "Darius the Mede" as conquering Babylon, when in fact it was Cyrus the Great, a Persian? Daniel 5:30-31.

 

Why are there no astounding scientific proclamations in the Bible that could prove it was from God, and not men? Instead we get passages that tell us that the hare chews the cud, when in fact it does not. Leviticus 11:6, Deuteronomy 14:7.

 

Some of these questions have very quick, but superficial, "answers" that actually tend to bring even more questions.

 

I wish you all the best in continuing to escape the Christianity trap.

 

Respectfully,

Franciscan Monkey

[ilovemybrain]

Hi Sarah, welcome! You sound much like me - a mommy of several who likes reading writing, and ...well almost likes knitting. But I can never undo my mistakes without screwing it all up..Anyhow, I just have a quick minute and haven't gotten to read all the posts yet, but I just want to congratulate you on thinking for yourself and seeking reasonable answers. Take your time and keep learning. I hope this site will be a help and support to you on your journey!

[MagickMonkey]

And what the story I posted about "god" revealing the Muslim man's personal facts to him through the missionary? Do I just dismiss that, and any other story like that?

 

For me, I have to accept such stories with skepticism. You weren't there to see it, and even if you did it could have been something other than what was observed. How many people each day are taken in by "psychics" and "mediums" who know things about them that no one else possibly could? You should do some research about James Randi (I think he was already mentioned above) and his work debunking this sort of thing.

 

Often we ignore perfectly acceptable natural explanations to believe the fanciful. We are too easily fooled, it seems to be a part of how we work.

 

 

I think there is a good episode of "Bullshit" (the Penn and Teller show on Showtime) dealing with this subject.

 

 

[Guest I Love Dog]

 

1. How come Christianity is the number one religion in the world if it's false?

 

2. How could so many brilliant minds believe in Christianity if it was bogus?

 

3. What about the prophecies of the bible? My parents came to Christianity mainly because of the belief that the fulfilled prophecies of the bible have only happened because they are from god.

 

4. My pastor said that the number one thing he always kept coming back to when he was deciding if Christianity was true or not, is this question: "If Jesus died on the cross and was buried, where is his body?" He was only satisfied with the belief in the ressurection because no one gave him a clear answer.

 

5. How in the world does one rid themselves of the fear of hell, which both my husband and I have, if we become ex-Christians? We really don't want to burn in hell for eternity! How can we know for sure that there is no hell?

 

6. What can I read that will explain how the ancient religions, before Christianity, had very similar elements in them. I've heard bits and pieces about this, and am very interested, but don't know where to look to find out more.

 

My children are fighting like crazy right now, so I've got to get off this computer. Thanks for reading!

 

Research Mithras, Horus, Levanites, Mesopotamia.

 

One of my favorite books is from the Website: http://www.jesusneverexisted.com

 

Research how the Romans designed their version of Christianity in the name of power, control, wealth creation. even the Trinity came from other sources, particularly the Egyptians.

 

Research how the Romans forced Christianity onto everyone throughout their Empire, on pain of death, making all other religions and gods heretical and illegal.

 

Research how the RC Church enforced their religion for 1500 years, killing, maiming, torturing, burning, all in the name of their "loving" god.

 

Research where Yahweh/Jehovah/Allah came from.

 

I could go on, but....

[renoliz]

Others have said many wise things here. I will simply say that the concept of Hell is bogus and isn't in the Bible like preachers say it is. I like the website what-the-hell-is-hell but it is Methodist. I still think they do a great job of debunking Hell. It helped me a lot. I was going to a fundie church at the time. I really didn't believe in Hell after awhile but when I quit going to church I still had nightmares and panic attacks over the Hell concept. It was dumb [to me] that I would fear something I didn't believe in but I accepted where I was at and kept telling myself to stay in the rational realm. Hell is NOT real. Took me awhile but I am not having fear of Hell problems anymore.

 

I still say that Christianity is like the Hare Krishnas. A mind controlling cult even if the people involved are often sincere. I read up on cults and gave our church the cult test that I found. Then I went through the cult test with Hubby and he said "Our church has a lot of these features of a cult." I heartily agreed with him.

 

Hubby was still a believer and I accepted that but made sure we kept talking about issues in Christianity that bothred me like the acceptance of slavery in the Bible, women as second class citizens of the Christian world, the atrocities in the Bible. Especially the ones that bothered him.

 

I started giving him info like "Did you know that Hell isn't even in the Old Testament?" Or "I found out that there really were people who could write during the time period of Jesus and in the area where he lived. 42 writers of that geopgraphical area and that time period and not one of them mentions Jesus. Amazing!" Or "You know, there really are inconsistencies in the Bible no matter how hard Pastor Butthead and others try to insist there isn't." I would share something about that like the birth accounts or the death accounts or other things I would read on line and I tried to pick really aggregious stuff not tiny nit-picky stuff.

 

I didn't harp on it for too long at a time. He has actually become a non-Christian basically. I don't tell him what to believe and I try to listen before speaking when he brings the topic up. We actually started talking about the stupid/weird things the preacher was saying. "That didn't make any sense to me" sort of conversations prior to leaving church and it has continued to this day.

 

Best of luck to you.

[Darklady]

Just a suggestion, if hubby isn't a reader, there's lots of good youtude/TED talks that he could watch, especially by people like Richard Dawkins

[★ Citsonga ★]

I will simply say that the concept of Hell is bogus and isn't in the Bible like preachers say it is. I like the website what-the-hell-is-hell but it is Methodist.

 

It is in the bible, just not as much as one would think based on sermons.

[★ Citsonga ★]

I think the number one thing that helped me get away from the belief in Hell, is that Hell (as we believe in it in Christianity) was NOT a Jewish Idea. That the god of the OT never mentioned everlasting damnation was very telling for me.

 

This. I should have mentioned that as well in my previous post. When I was in my deconversion process and working through some issues, I was discussing hell on another board. I looked up the subject in my "Topical Analysis Bible," expecting to find OT references to it. Now, I was already aware that the term "hell" in the KJV OT was often a mistranslation, but what surprised me with this subject is that the OT passages listed in the "Topical Analysis Bible" as referring to the christian concept of hell really did not mean such. The more I looked, the more I found nothing about hell in the OT!

 

Also telling is the fact that many of the epistles predate the gospels, and the epistles don't give any description of a lake of fire. Only James and 2 Peter mention hell but give no description of it. None of Paul's epistles mention hell. There is a reference to "eternal destruction," but no description of a lake of fire, and it could easily mean destroyed for eternity.

 

It's only once the gospels and Revelation come along that the idea of hell comes out.

 

So, if hell was so important, then why was it completely ignored until the very end of the development of christian texts in the bible? Sounds more like evolving religion than absolute truth to me.