Christians - a quiz

[Mythra]

I have two quotes here. I'd like Christians to tell me if they are convinced that either or both of these quotes were spoken by a man named Jesus in the first century CE, and why you believe that.

 

Statement a. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

 

Statement b. "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits"

[Xthebuilder]

Statement a. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life"

 

 

 

***** Yes, and this is the best summary I can find....if you are asking for me to validate John's gospel, then thats an entirely different conversation.! For God so loved,-- The picture embraces several distinct compartments: "THE WORLD"--in its widest sense--ready "to perish"; the immense "LOVE OF GOD" to that perishing world, measurable only, and conceivable only, by the gift which it drew forth from Him; THE GIFT itself--"He so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son," or, in the language of Paul, "spared not His own Son" ( Rom 8:32 ), or in that addressed to Abraham when ready to offer Isaac on the altar, "withheld not His Son, His only Son, whom He loved" ( Gen 22:16 ); the FRUIT of this stupendous gift--not only deliverance from impending "perdition," but the bestowal of everlasting life; the MODE in which all takes effect--by "believing" on the Son. How would Nicodemus' narrow Judaism become invisible in the blaze of this Sun of righteousness seen rising on "the world" with healing in His wings! ( Mal 4:2 ).

 

 

 

Statement b. "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

regarding statement ( , i am unsure if it was spoken by Christ, and on this I plead ignorance as my research into the gnostic discipleship is limited. i have read some papers on it, and inconsitencies in thier teachings, however, i have not fully drawn my own conclusion, i will continue to research these books they call the hidden or secret teachings. i do have problems with dowlings teachings, his philosophy on traveling in time etc.....but as stated, the more i discover the more i will have a totally informed opinion

[MQTA]

A} couldn't/wouldn't have been spoken BY Jesus

 

B} may be a secret saying from the Gospel of Thomas ?

[MQTA]

"Perhaps people think that I have come to cast peace upon the world. They do not know that I have come to cast conflicts upon the earth: fire, sword, war. For there will be five in a house: there'll be three against two and two against three, father against son and son against father, and they will stand alone."

[MQTA]

"Congratulations to the one who came into being before coming into being. If you become my disciples and pay attention to my sayings, these stones will serve you. For there are five trees in Paradise for you; they do not change, summer or winter, and their leaves do not fall. Whoever knows them will not taste death."

[Mythra]

Actually, the evidence is just as good - or bad - (depending on your viewpoint) that Jesus spoke each of these two statements.

[Razor]

Actually, the evidence is just as good - or bad - (depending on your viewpoint) that Jesus spoke each of these two statements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra,

I think Jesus may have spoken both statements, not sure, but it does not matter weather he did or not and I tell you why.

 

It was a warning not to seek after righteousness by deeds of the flesh, only faith in him who Justified the Ungodly on the Cross at Calvary (Jesus) will ever make you righteouse in the sight of God.

 

Going to Church every Sunday, keeping all the commandments, giving to Charity etc, that means nothing to God, it does not impress him, because he knows that you have not given up on yourself.

 

You cannot add to the perfect righteousness of Jesus with a dash or two of your own.

 

You have to die to self, stop putting any trust in anything you can do to be righteouse, and once and for all put your Trust in what Jesus has already done in the completed work of the cross on your behalf.

 

 

Peace

[Razor]

Mythra,

I think Jesus may have spoken both statements, not sure, but it does not matter weather he did or not and I tell you why.

 

It was a warning not to seek after righteousness by deeds of the flesh, only faith in him who Justified the Ungodly on the Cross at Calvary (Jesus) will ever make you righteouse in the sight of God.

 

Going to Church every Sunday, keeping all the commandments, giving to Charity etc, that means nothing to God, it does not impress him, because he knows that you have not given up on yourself.

 

You cannot add to the perfect righteousness of Jesus with a dash or two of your own.

 

You have to die to self, stop putting any trust in anything you can do to be righteouse, and once and for all put your Trust in what Jesus has already done in the completed work of the cross on your behalf.

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Ps I forgot to mention I was answering the second statement, the first Statement speaks for itself.

[Amanda]

Actually, the evidence is just as good - or bad - (depending on your viewpoint) that Jesus spoke each of these two statements.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

OK, I'll bite. I thought the first one was a given that Jesus said that. Now about the second one... I couldn't find anything, I doubt it was said by him. Although I could concieve of a circumstance in which it could happen, but I think it didn't.

 

Are you going to give us a clue, the context in which the second one was said, let us know how you came up with this, what's your evidence either way... or are you going to leave us.... dangling for awhile longer? The edge of the seat is NOT a comfortable place to be...

[Ouroboros]

The edge of the seat is NOT a comfortable place to be...

Especially if it's one of those chairs with a curved edge, you keep on slipping off and hit the floor. Eventually, you'll have big dent in the carpet!

[Mythra]

OK, to aid in the discussion I will fill you all in. Statement b is known as logion 14 from the Gospel of Thomas. Logion (singular) or logia (plural) refers to statements that are generally accepted as having been spoken by Jesus, but are not recorded in the gospels. Amanda: if you haven't read the Gospel of Thomas, you should. It will be an eye opener for you, as far as validating your beliefs.

 

Now then. The Gospel of Thomas. A copy (in greek) found intact at Nag Hammadi in upper Egypt in 1945. It is NOT generally accepted as a gnostic writing. It's referred to as being proto-gnostic in nature. Scholars are divided as far as dating this writing. Those with a self-investment in the canonical bible will date Thomas as late as 140 CE. There are respected scholars such as Professor Helmut Koester (Harvard) and Elaine Pagels (PhD from Harvard - professor at Princeton, and author) who date the Gospel of Thomas as early as 50 CE. That would make it earlier than ANY of the canonical gospels.

 

You can't say that you KNOW Jesus said statement "A", and that he did not say statement "B". The evidence is the same for both. Possibly better for "B", because the author says that he is Thomas, the disciple. And, according to the standard set by Christians, Thomas - an eyewitness to Jesus, wrote this manuscript.

[Razor]

  You sure bout' that?

 

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

 

Absolutely 100% sure of my right standing with God!

 

Peace

[Mythra]

Amanda - for you - logion 70

 

"If you bring forth what is within you, what you have will save you. If you do not have that within you, what you do not have within you will kill you."

 

Razor: we'll play bible verse ping pong another time.

[ToHellWithMe]

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

 

Absolutely 100% sure of my right standing with God!

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I fail to see how Razor's quote answers to the SerenityNow's.

 

SerenityNow's quote lists sins that'll earn you hell. (Also it's interesting to note unbelief is one of them, not the prerequisite for the other ones to earn you hell.)

 

Razors quote is about works, not about sinning. Or am i completely lost as i don't think 'not-sinning' equals to 'work' here?

[Mythra]

Now. Here is my point. If the gospel of Thomas - basically a collection of sayings - preceded the gospel of John by some 50 to 60 years, it strongly adds to the evidence that the gospel of John is the product of an author's creative imagination, and not historical or factual.

 

For in the gospel of Thomas, there is NOT ONE statement anything like what we see in John. Jesus makes no claim to be the son of god. When he references god, he says, THE father. No mention of belief in Jesus to save anyone from hell. No mention of hell at all, as far as I found. No mention of miracles, or virgin births, or deaths on a cross.

 

Just a collection of sayings. The inception of a religion.

[crazy-tiger]

Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor but as what is due. But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness (Romans 4:4-5).

Romans 3

29Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, 30since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. 31Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

Fuck you... the law is upheld.

 

You're not following it, so you're in for a hot afterlife...

Absolutely 100% sure of my right standing with God!

 

Peace

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Pride is against God's law too...

[MQTA]

Gospel of Thomas

[Amanda]

Hi Mythra!

 

This is all super interesting. Seeing your resource, I knew I had that book somewhere. You would not believe what I had to do to find it, but I have it now! I'm sure you guys are happy about that!

 

And thank you for verse logion 70! I've started reading this before, yet it seems it was difficult reading. A lot of deep meaning insights, IMO.

 

For in the gospel of Thomas, there is NOT ONE statement anything like what we see in John.  Jesus makes no claim to be the son of god.  When he references god, he says, THE father. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Did you, by chance, read logion 13? Wow! I think that says more than the words on the page. Ahhh-ha, read logion 77! That one is right up my alley. What about logion 82?

 

Where in the Bible does Jesus claim to be the Son of God? Of course, other than calling him Father?

No mention of belief in Jesus to save anyone from hell.  No mention of hell at all, as far as I found. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What do you think of logion 10?

No mention of miracles, or virgin births, or deaths on a cross.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'll be reading more... and let you know... Muah-hahahaha!

 

BTW, did you read logion 107?

[Mythra]

Now then. Why don't christians recognize the Gospel of Thomas? Why are only Matthew, Mark, Luke and John judged to be "THE AUTHENTIC WORD OF GOD" ?

 

Because there had to be only four gospels. Why? Saint Irenaeus of Lyons. circa 180 CE. "Against Heresies"

 

Here were the reasons for only four gospels.

 

1. There are four zones of the world.

2. There are four principal winds.

3. The cherubim were four-faced.

 

 

That's it. That's how Mt Mk Lk and Jn became official. And all of the rest (there's a whole lot more than just Thomas...) became crap.

[Mythra]

Check out earlychristianwritings.com to see all of the writings that existed, and were known quite well to the early christians.

[Mythra]

Amanda - I pm'd ya.

[Amanda]

Now then.  Why don't christians recognize the Gospel of Thomas?  Why are only Matthew, Mark, Luke and John judged to be "THE AUTHENTIC WORD OF GOD" ?

 

Because there had to be only four gospels.  Why?  Saint Irenaeus of Lyons.  circa 180 CE.  "Against Heresies"

 

Here were the reasons for only four gospels.

 

1.  There are four zones of the world.

2.  There are four principal winds.

3.  The cherubim were four-faced.

That's it.  That's how Mt Mk Lk and Jn became official.  And all of the rest (there's a whole lot more than just Thomas...)  became crap.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Mythra, I am very interested and will research this... yet, I am curious to know why they would choose Paul to be included and reject these others?

[Mythra]

Mythra, I am very interested and will research this... yet, I am curious to know why they would choose Paul to be included and reject these others?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Don't know. Got lots more studying to do myself. I do know this, Marcion was branded a complete heretic right after his death. Marcion didn't believe that the OT god and the NT god were the same. Marcion was gnostic. And PAUL was Marcion's favorite guy.

 

I'll help ya on the Irenaeus reference. "Against Heresies" Book III, XI, 8.

[Ouroboros]

Mythra, I am very interested and will research this... yet, I am curious to know why they would choose Paul to be included and reject these others?

If you can get a copy of A History of Christianity by Paul Johnson, you'll get a good start.

It doesn't cover everything, but it's a good book to have in the library (and of course read).

[Amanda]

Don't know.  Got lots more studying to do myself.  I do know this, Marcion was branded a complete heretic right after his death.  Marcion didn't believe that the OT god and the NT god were the same. Marcion was gnostic.  And PAUL was Marcion's favorite guy.

 

I'll help ya on the Irenaeus reference.  "Against Heresies"  Book III, XI, 8.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I checked out Against Heresies on the internet, but you are talking about chapter 3, 8, and 11... not books, right?

 

The one I was already reading is quite interesting too... much of what you said already found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irenaeus

 

I still want to read the Book of Thomas too. There may be more I want to point out to you too! And did you say there is a lexicon in english for this? Mine includes the actual way they wrote in those days... obviously, not our alphabet.

 

Thanks Mythra!