Mythra Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 Irenaeus.htmTry this. It's book III, Chapter XI, Section 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 If you can get a copy of A History of Christianity by Paul Johnson, you'll get a good start.It doesn't cover everything, but it's a good book to have in the library (and of course read). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Thanks for the ref, Hans. I just ordered "Beyond Belief - The Secret Gospel of Thomas" by Elaine Pagels. Will let you know if it's any good. A History of Christianity is next in line. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Consider this people, Have you become side tracked away from your very real right standing with God already today? Lets go back to Mythras first Post in this thread, note that in the second statement Mythra posted how it said Do not Pray for forgivness. Now you could not blame most people for thinking well how am I supposed to be forgiven and have right standing before God then? if I do not pray for forgivness. I know that I have right standing with God, I know from the scriptures that I have read and posted here before for all to see. I might Pray for somebody that is in trouble with their Health to get better, I might pray for Peace in a War Zone, I might Pray for Rain tommorow, but if prayed for my own personal forgivness, that would mean I did not really believe that Jesus has already paid my Sin debt in full already on the Cross at Calvary. I GIVE THANKS everyday of my life that Jesus has already paid my Sin Debt in Full on the Cross at Calvary, because there is not a day that goes by in my life where Jesus has to over look my imperfect obedience to God. Boy do I ever give thanks for that each day of my life ! If I prayed for forgivness now that would mean that I had not given up on myself, that I thought I could do some deed of the flesh like praying for forgivness to put myself right with God. So as you can see you dont have to pray for forgivness, if you believe your Sin Debt has already been paid in full by Jesus on the Cross at Calvary. By all means give thanks if you want, but do not ask for what is already yours (forgivness and right standing with God) Then your Faith is reckoned as Righteousness! I hope I do not sound like I am preaching here, I never fully answered all facets of the second statement Mythra posted. Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 So when you rape someone you can feel good about it becuase Jesus paid the toll.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Romans 3 Fuck you... the law is upheld. You're not following it, so you're in for a hot afterlife... Pride is against God's law too... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Confidence, has nothing to do with Pride. Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16) So much for the Law! Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 So when you rape someone you can feel good about it becuase Jesus paid the toll.... <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Vixentrox, The Bible says that a person is known by their Fruits. If you where the presiding Judge in Court giving Judgement about a Rape, and the defence tried to use the Jesus Sin Debt defence, would you believe the offender was truly a follwer of Jesus in their heart! Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 Razor. You missed the whole point of the thread. But, if you wanna go sideways, WTF. It also says, if you pray you will be condemned. splain that in your little theological microcosm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mythra Posted October 15, 2005 Author Share Posted October 15, 2005 I picked that verse for the simple reason that no christian would think that they fit within their already established beliefs. You proved me wrong, razor. You found a way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixentrox Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Vixentrox,The Bible says that a person is known by their Fruits. If you where the presiding Judge in Court giving Judgement about a Rape, and the defence tried to use the Jesus Sin Debt defence, would you believe the offender was truly a follwer of Jesus in their heart! Peace <{POST_SNAPBACK}> In a fit of anger they made a mistake. You don't ever make mistakes? Now that Jesus has paid the toll, you never sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Confidence, has nothing to do with Pride. Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified (Gal. 2:16) So much for the Law! Peace <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I find it interesting that you chose that verse... You do realise that is aimed at the Jews alone? Are you a Jew? Not likely... therefore, that verse doesn't apply to you. I also find it interesting that you take the word of Paul over the word of God, Jesus and the Apostles. How does it feel, being a believer in Paulianity? How does it feel, basing your faith on the interpretation of one person? How does it feel, knowing that your belief is contradicting God and Jesus? How does it feel, being a follower of heresy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razor Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 I find it interesting that you chose that verse... You do realise that is aimed at the Jews alone? Are you a Jew? Not likely... therefore, that verse doesn't apply to you. I also find it interesting that you take the word of Paul over the word of God, Jesus and the Apostles. How does it feel, being a believer in Paulianity? How does it feel, basing your faith on the interpretation of one person? How does it feel, knowing that your belief is contradicting God and Jesus? How does it feel, being a follower of heresy? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33) So much for the Law! Peace Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Mythra, I am very interested and will research this... yet, I am curious to know why they would choose Paul to be included and reject these others? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Paul wrote letters to Churches. He started the movement to popularity. He disparaged Peter, John and James. The author of Mark penned his story combing the Greek version of the Hebrew OT, thinking "If Jesus was the Messiah, what would he have been like", and off he went. After the war of 70 AD, the only surviving writings were Paul's letters and the Markian Gospel. The Jews were out of the way, the authors of Matthew and Luke wroter their improved Gospels (supposedly for different audiences). I don't think the 4 Gospels were ever supposed to be bound in the same book. After the turn of the century, it took on a life of it's own. They had Paul's letters to expand, 4 Gospels, and they filled in the rest as time went on. If I were to believe that Satan tempted Jesus in the dessert, then I would also think that it was Satan who got to Paul saying he was Jesus. Jesus wasn't fooled, but Paul sure was. And, well, Look what happened. That's the only explanation I could see for how the last 1900 or so years of history panned out. Unless there's Neither and just The Winners got to write History. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Paul wrote letters to Churches. He started the movement to popularity. He disparaged Peter, John and James. The author of Mark penned his story combing the Greek version of the Hebrew OT, thinking "If Jesus was the Messiah, what would he have been like", and off he went. After the war of 70 AD, the only surviving writings were Paul's letters and the Markian Gospel. The Jews were out of the way, the authors of Matthew and Luke wroter their improved Gospels (supposedly for different audiences). <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hello MQTA... It seems to me that Paul does not contradict the gospels, but gives new, and sometimes deeper insights into them. I think the 'message' inspired Paul, or the way of life of those Christians of those times did... which I think was quite different than the majority of these 'Christians' today. I think the Christians then were struggling to convey a message of being humble, meek, and servant's disposition. They avoided condemning anyone, perhaps except those that had a nature of condemning and oppressing people. If anyone decided to make the 'improved Gospels', it has been the present translators... such as for the KJV. And of course, the spin given in accordance to it throughout history has been for their own message... NOT the intentions of the author's, IMO, FWIW. It seems to me that people have taken something good as a fascade to further their own goals, which seems to have spun out of control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crazy-tiger Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33) So much for the Law! Peace <{POST_SNAPBACK}> So much for the law according to Paul... According to God, Jesus, the Gospels... in fact everyone except Paul, the Law is still in place, has to be obeyed, and faith alone will not lead you to righteousness. You don't have faith in Christ, or in God... you only have faith in PAUL! Now, if you want to try arguing that Paul is right and God, Jesus and the Apostles all LIED, then go right ahead... it just means you're setting yourself up as an Anti-Christ. By the way... Romans 7:12 "So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good." Seems following the law leads to righteousness, since the law is the commandments and the commandments are righteousness. Follow the law and you are righteous. Yes, we can play verse ping-pong all year, and we'll still be able to argue about this. Problem is, I'm using the stuff that God, Jesus and the Apostles have said while you use the stuff that Paul said. Since Paul is saying that God, Jesus and the Apostles LIED, you are ALSO saying that they lied... Hope you like it hot, 'cos you're in for one hell of a roast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Beyond Belief - The Secret Gospel of Thomas Read this when I was questioning. It did open my eyes a lot. I highly recommend it to anyone who seriously wants to study the history of Christianity and go beyond the church-approved stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MQTA Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 I give Amanda a 10 but she's not slippery. The 10 is for "effort" in trying to make beautiful, a book that describes and characterizes god as a monster and totally contradicts itself in to many places to count and also does not fall in line with prophecy. Like someone else wrote already, it's hard to be mad at you Amanda, even though we find no truth in your version of the bible either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I think totally missed the point and what Paul did. It's nice to see the term Paulianity spreading. It seems to be the valid name for what we see today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amanda Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 I give Amanda a 10 but she's not slippery. The 10 is for "effort" in trying to make beautiful, a book that describes and characterizes god as a monster and totally contradicts itself in to many places to count and also does not fall in line with prophecy. Like someone else wrote already, it's hard to be mad at you Amanda, even though we find no truth in your version of the bible either. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Hi Serenity Now! It seems neither side can perceive my perspective. At least this side is nice to me. Thank you, sincerely, to all of you for tolerating me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clergicide Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone, just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED" (Romans 9:30-33) So much for the Law! Peace <{POST_SNAPBACK}> That's some pretty selective reading. If you read the whole of Romans, you will realize that doesn't unmake the Law, it is just stressing the importance of both Faith and the Law. Actually read the whole account. Romans 3:29-31 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted October 15, 2005 Share Posted October 15, 2005 Thanks for the ref, Hans. I just ordered "Beyond Belief - The Secret Gospel of Thomas" by Elaine Pagels. Will let you know if it's any good. I put it in my list of books to eventually buy or read. Looking forward to your review. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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