Guest Valk0010 Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest I Love Dog Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? I don't know for sure, but I'd suggest that god's "free will" in heaven is like god's "free will" on Earth. You can have free will as long you're prepared to pay the price. God's free will is like a mugger holding a gun at your head saying "You don't have to give me your money, it's really your choice, but I'll kill you if you don't". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 If you are in heaven and want to sin, then you are in the wrong place, so it seems that in heaven, you will not want to sin. If you do not want to sin, something has changed. I can think of two things that must have to happen in a heaven: 1. The environment changed and now you have no contingencies available that would lead you to make sinful choices. 2. Something from outside changed you and now you no longer want to sin. In this case, it seems as if free will was taken from you. It seems like either option can fit some definition of determinism. I don't see how the idea that one's free will is taken away in fantasy land can be avoided. Some believers hold out the position that this life is a test of our faithfulness and a preparation for receiving rewards in heaven. And , as such, it doesn't violate any theological positions to say that once the "game" of life is over it is then "ok" for god to remove free will from his followers. I guess the inhabitants of heaven become trophies of some sort. They are shined up and put on the shelf for all the angels and heavenly hosts to admire. It does put to rest one of the assertions of many christians that it is not authentic or fulfilling to god for people to be unable to choose him out of free will. If it can be fulfilling for god to remove free will in heaven, then why doesn't he remove free will on this earth and eliminate the excessive suffering that takes place as a result of people choosing to do wrong? Can we talk about the wonders of Willy Wonka's chocolate factory next? Did the oompa loompas have free will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 The reason I say this, is because one of my favorite arguments to use against Christians is, the idea of can we have free will but only do good things. Often times apart of my argument is bringing up, free will in heaven. But if I am wrong, the idea doesn't have its ommph to it, which is why I asked. And similarly I bring up the stuff you said oddbird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 i am not even sure this question is even a question at all. heaven will be so perfect and you see god's face and bath in his awe and presence 24/7 that you be doing hallelujahs and no time/space for sin. where cometh da free wilth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddbird1963 Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 i am not even sure this question is even a question at all. heaven will be so perfect and you see god's face and bath in his awe and presence 24/7 that you be doing hallelujahs and no time/space for sin. where cometh da free wilth? It sounds as if you are saying that there is no free will in heaven. You are saying that there is no time/space for sin (which would involve an exercised of the will). You are , in essence, saying that god obliterates the free will by changing the environment. So, it sounds like this god of yours is making mindless robots out of people because they have no choice but to "bath" in his presence constantly. Does god want you to be a robot, programmed and compelled to do his will for eternity? Will this god be stimulating the pleasure centers of your being to make you "want" to pleasure him with your praise? Is this your view of eternity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? Depends what you want to believe I guess but my vote would fall under "no free will" because of the lord's prayer: thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven The will of "god" must be the rule in heaven but not on earth for this to make much sense. If you accept the doctrine of Revelation and that a literal war can break out in heaven (ie. a rebellion) and that this war is not part of "god's" will then this would mean that free will does exist in heaven but the lord's prayer is wrong (which causes other doctrinal issues about "jesus"...for example: if he's wrong about this then what else?). It doesn't matter if this war is moved to before the time of the garden (which xians do simply so the snake can be satan) or some future date (as the text naturally reads). If the war is not "god's" will then free will exists in this heaven. If the war is "god's" will then this creates other issues (such as it is okay to willfully damn angels as pawns and other issues involving the creation of evil...depending on when this war supposedly takes place) but removes the problem with "jesus." So in the imaginary realm of the xian heaven it can be difficult to answer what appears to be a simple question. But as I said it appears that "no free will," based on the lord's prayer, is the correct one (since we are to assume that "jesus" is also the "god" and should know the correct answer). This just creates the follow-up complications for the idea of the "fallen" and the "war" that takes place. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShakenNotStirred Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 I always kind of dreaded Heaven for this reason. It was beyond my concept that I could enjoy what eternity was described as. Also, Revelation 21:4 says: ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death, or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.” Interesting that when Iron Maiden quoted that verse on their Piece of Mind album, they substituted the word "brain" for "pain". That really used to bother me, but it actually makes sense now, lol. Why would eternity be any different than it was before, and what would keep anyone from becoming restless and starting another rebellion? I don't believe true love can ever be forced, and absolutely has to come from free choice. Psychological or emotional dependence that imitates love may grow from a forced situation, but those people are damaged at that point -- no longer healthy, nor independent. Choice based on fear of punishment is not free choice. Think about this... in America, we say we have "freedom of speech" as protected under the 1st Amendment to the Constitution. It provisions that no law be created which infringes on that, but we obviously have social mores like Political Correctness that do exactly that thru intimidation. People learn to keep their thoughts to themselves out of fear of repercussion. Does it change what they think? Absolutely not, because that would have to come from the heart (I use the word "heart" figuratively). It just increases insincerity. Why would eternity be any different? In order for us to suppress individual thoughts, we'd have to be spiritually lobotomized (I use the word "spiritually" figuratively, lol... I no longer believe in a soul, spirit, "heart", etc.). Do we want all pain gone? In my own journey I've found that I need down times, even a little depression on occasion to keep me grounded and balanced. That was always one of the biggest challenges to my Christian life, was the inability to sustain the "on fire" sensation. Just like the market corrects itself from time to time, so did my psyche i guess. Here is something that it seems most modern Christians miss entirely -- the entire concept of Heaven. Amazing that so many millions, billions, whatever number of people have placed all their eggs into a basket for which they don't understand the endgame... Revelation 21:1-3 clearly says that eternity with God will be here on a renewed Earth, in the New Jerusalem which comes down from above. Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. For some reason most Christians think they'll be living somewhere up in the clouds, or out in outer space, and hardly anyone seems to be teaching them otherwise. I recently ran across something online about a "controversial priest" who was teaching what I said above, but he was vague with the details because he wanted people to buy his new book about it! All anyone has to do is open the Bible and read it for themselves, LOL! Regardless of where "Heaven" or eternity will be spent, I always kinda dreaded the concept because I couldn't see how I'd be satisfied, at least not if I was still "me". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Regardless of where "Heaven" or eternity will be spent, I always kinda dreaded the concept because I couldn't see how I'd be satisfied, at least not if I was still "me". Paul claims you'll go up to heaven which is why people think you'll go there. I agree that Revelation disagrees and that's why you have convoluted models where you have people going to heaven/hell for awhile then leaving there and coming back to this earth as described in the Revelation. It's nuts. Especially if you keep reading the end of Revelation where there are still unbelievers and all the "bad" elements in this brave new world. Seems it would have been best to stay up in the clouds. On an unrelated note I just thought I'd mentioned that your message was a tad hard to read since I use the "graphite" skin and the dark colors disappeared (I just highlighted them to read them). I just thought I'd mention it in case others had problems. I'm sure it looks fine on the lighter skins. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShakenNotStirred Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Regardless of where "Heaven" or eternity will be spent, I always kinda dreaded the concept because I couldn't see how I'd be satisfied, at least not if I was still "me". Paul claims you'll go up to heaven which is why people think you'll go there. I agree that Revelation disagrees and that's why you have convoluted models where you have people going to heaven/hell for awhile then leaving there and coming back to this earth as described in the Revelation. It's nuts. Especially if you keep reading the end of Revelation where there are still unbelievers and all the "bad" elements in this brave new world. Seems it would have been best to stay up in the clouds. On an unrelated note I just thought I'd mentioned that your message was a tad hard to read since I use the "graphite" skin and the dark colors disappeared (I just highlighted them to read them). I just thought I'd mention it in case others had problems. I'm sure it looks fine on the lighter skins. mwc Sure, it's confusing about "the nations" who are healed at the end of Revelation. I finally had found some material that actually discussed and tried to explain that, but I've never heard anyone in any traditional church even touch on that in their teaching. I think it's just much easier (and safer) for modern churches to stick to teaching "Christian living" and not eschatology, lol. Hmm, I'm not sure what the problem with my font would be. Can you tell me more? I'm just using Arial 2pt, in either black or dark blue (for quotes). I'm not familiar with the skins, would think my font would look ok on any white background. I will dig around and try to check out that skin to see if it gives me trouble, too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Animania Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Based on the fundie Christianity that I came out of, I would say no. This is mostly since according to them you don't have free will after you are "saved". How many times I've heard that once you are saved you can't forsake your "savior" or you were never saved to begin with, I would say that they do not advocate free will after salvation anyway. I don't see why this wouldn't continue in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hereticzero Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 According to some xtian cults, there are jobs in heaven just like earth. Mayor, Governor, etc., all based on earthly govts.--so as it is on earth so it is in heaven. There is then no free will if you are assigned a job according to one's level of spiritual holiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mwc Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 According to some xtian cults, there are jobs in heaven just like earth. Mayor, Governor, etc., all based on earthly govts.--so as it is on earth so it is in heaven. There is then no free will if you are assigned a job according to one's level of spiritual holiness. I got this in my Baptist schooling. We were told that we'd all get those "mansions" like some fancy neighborhood. But then who would take care of them? Well, we would. So some people would be janitors, plumbers, tree trimmers, lawn care and so on. "God" would live in the middle, on a hill or something, in the biggest house, and then the apostles (of course), and on out into the smaller mansions for us losers who never get into the parties on the hill and who had to be up to deliver the news paper or whatever. Heaven was just some shitty version of here in a better neighborhood. Sounds a little like ancient Egyptian "heaven" to me. mwc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 I'm expecting nothing after I die, so anything more will be a pleasant unexpected surprise. Christians expect heaven so anything less is going to be a disappointment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirPhoenix Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 The christian version of free will is magically having the desire to sin being removed upon entering heaven. Why God doesn't do that for christians now, I have no clue. Oh wait, yes I do...cuz he doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? Of course there will be freewill in heaven, or else God needs make Eden/Earth at all, He can just port all of us as robots to heaven directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ouroboros Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Of course there will be freewill in heaven, or else God needs make Eden/Earth at all, He can just port all of us as robots to heaven directly. But it won't be as free as it was when Lucifer was an archangel. He had free will, and could rise up against God, but you will not, because of some lobotomy of your ability to want to disagree with your beloved supreme leader. Heaven will only be filled with a bunch of sycophants. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dibllsmek Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 No you have free will in heaven. Your choices are; Giving praise Kneeling and giving praise Bowing and giving praise Kissing holy ass and giving praise And many other decisions to make! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? Of course there will be freewill in heaven, or else God needs make Eden/Earth at all, He can just port all of us as robots to heaven directly. Of course without changes, to keep heaven eternally secure, we would then have to have free will and not be able or at least remade to be not willing to, do evil. And if that is possible, then what is the point of earth. Because if there is free will without evil, then evil is no longer required for free will, if there is a god of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bornagainathiest Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? Ummm... sorry about this Valk, but I think I'm gonna throw a spanner in the works here. Surely, before we can ask what the Bible says about free will in heaven, we first have to ask what it says about us having free will here and now, on Earth? Coz, if we don't have it now, we won't miss it in heaven, will we? You can't miss what you never had, so the saying goes. Yes, I know this really doesn't help, because I've now opened up a new and equally messy can of worms. The 'Do-We-Have-Free-Will?' debate has raged for long enough as it is and setting up a division between what happens now on Earth and what will happen in Heaven, may well be a classic example of establishing a false dichotomy. Are we doing this here? I dunno! So, do you think it's worth asking what the Biblical basis for free will in our mortal lives is? Or do you want to stick with the scripture about free will in heaven? Or shall I just shut up? You're the OP, so it's your call. BAA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Valk0010 Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 I am operating under the presupposition in the start of this thread that we have free will on earth. Though often my response to the other idea of purely determinism by the whims of a god, has been glibly, then still whats the point of the bible. If we have no free will whats the point of even having the story known as the bible. Its all fair game, discuss what you want. I am definitely loving it. Maybe someone could change this title to Free will and Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ripley Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I should know something like this, but I am not sure what different Christians taught. Do we have free will in heaven or do we just sit around and worship god all the time. What biblical basis is there for either side? there is no biblical basis for free will actually. until the mid 1800's predetermination was the held belief. bits from a decent easy to read site... Biblical Christianity Denies Free Will ...If our actions and nature are determined by God, how can god blame us for those actions? The Biblical text runs thusly: "It does not therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed on all the earth." [Exodus 9:16] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. 19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?"" Romans 9:16-19 [NIV] And that is the clincher; the ultimate question. Paul has asked "Is God unjust?" for its denial of free will, for its disregard for what our choices and intentions are. Paul now has a mortal present that same question. His answer is a shocker: "But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?'"[isaiah 29:16, 45:9] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?" Romans 9:20-21 [NIV] The answer is: Tough! God is unjust, simply because it can be! There is no justification, God makes some people "for noble use", chosen and predestined to do good works 'which God prepared in advance' 'according to his purpose'. http://www.vexen.co....y_freewill.html in this same sense 'evil' and suffering are caused by god according to his purpose. ( how many people always like to say 'everything happens for a reason' ? and the bible its' self says as much... I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6) Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38) --also . not to get into it now but Satan never stopped serving god and is still an angel ( just has a really crappy job ( job for example .. needed gods approval before acting.) Lucifer is not the devil or satan ... but the king of tyre ( as well as a reference to being jesus in the book of Revelation ( which is a whole other myth subject ).) and hell ?? 'Hell' as an invention of the church how ofter people say 'everything happens for a reason ' .... it very well could and free will be nothing more than an illusion. At any given moment we think we make a choice we can only choose one. the one we are supposed to choose in order to serve that purpose/plan/reason. we may think we change our minds and choose another but that is a different moment in time. heaven ? who knows ?? I like to think 'we' go on in some way , knowing that energy , basically what runs us at the smallest level , can not be created or destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leinad89 Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaiser01 Posted February 23, 2011 Share Posted February 23, 2011 once you understand the phsycology of god (most christians say you cant) but it is very easy to if you give it enought thought the way the bible describes heaven there would be no free will. all you would do is bow down and kiss gods ass and the only way to ensure that is to get rid of free will. this is one of the reasons i didnt want to go to heaven as a christian ( i was petrified of hell though) becosue it seemed so dull and redundant to me in that no one would have free will and you would be doing nothing but worshiping some one for an eternity. it never struck me till latter how self centered this really was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkins Posted March 2, 2011 Share Posted March 2, 2011 Of course without changes, to keep heaven eternally secure, we would then have to have free will and not be able or at least remade to be not willing to, do evil. And if that is possible, then what is the point of earth. Because if there is free will without evil, then evil is no longer required for free will, if there is a god of course. First, if we are unable to choose to sin, then either our wills are not freewill or sinning is not a real choice. So when true freewills are in front of real choices, some will have to choose to sin. Which means, we as true freewills will have to divide. Earth is thus a place for human freewills to divide. God just gets the separated teams, one being with God, the other not being with God. If the freewills in heaven will choose to sin, then God would have to leave their to another team when they are on earth's time. Do you have a futurnic sense? (usually we don't, as humans) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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