Ages Of The Patriarchs

[Phanta]

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

[dB-Paradox]

I'm horrible at math. But what you point out does seem intriguing. But what do the numbers represent? How is Abraham's age of 175 relevant to 7 x (5 x 5)? It is intriguing that the odd numbers drop by two with each successive generation, and that the bracketed numbers rise by one with each generation. Does a similar patten apply for the extremely exaggerated ages of Adam through to Noah?

 

By the way, I do not think that the ages of the patriarchs are in any way historical. But looking at the numbers, they may fit into Judeo-Christian symbolism. Abraham's number 7 could be representative of Jesus, which 7 also represents, I believe. Abraham's sacrifice, and Jesus' sacrifice. 7 and 7. I don't know what 5 represents in the bible, so I'll have to skip over Isaac. But 3 is the unbreakable bond. It also represents the trinity. Therefore, Jacob's 3 is unbreakable, just as Israel will always be a nation. And since Jacob became Israel, it stands to reason that Israel is unbreakable. I'm just inserting random and spontaneous thoughts into this post.

[Ouroboros]

If I remember right, 7 is the number of heaven or God (or perhaps all holy things?), while 6 is the number of man. 5, I don't know. 3, what db-px said, the unbreakable bond.

 

The numbers in the OT shows that numerology was probably underlying the early religious ideas. It wouldn't surprise me if we couldn't find the same numbers and symbolic meaning in the Babylonian and Sumerian religions.

[par4dcourse]

OMG! Maybe the golden ratio is somehow involved and Dan Brown has another bestseller. Please don't tell him.

[Phanta]

If I remember right, 7 is the number of heaven or God (or perhaps all holy things?), while 6 is the number of man. 5, I don't know. 3, what db-px said, the unbreakable bond.

 

The numbers in the OT shows that numerology was probably underlying the early religious ideas. It wouldn't surprise me if we couldn't find the same numbers and symbolic meaning in the Babylonian and Sumerian religions.

 

I haven't found any yet. Has anyone else?

 

One thing I read (don't remember where, so maybe it is crap) is that, in Egypt, 110 (Joseph's age) was considered the ideal life-span.

 

I didn't chase references on that, though.

 

Phanta

[rayskidude]

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

I believe the ages are historical, and I also think that any manipulation of numbers to generate 'patterns' is somewhat artificial.

 

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

that's my 2cents

[Deva]

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

that's my 2cents

 

Yes, your 2 cents and more baloney from Ray. Back this genome (accumulated mutation) statement up with one shred of proof. I dare ya!

 

Do doubt our modern way of living has made us soft, but longer lifespans - we most definitely have that now due to modern medicine.

[Phanta]

I believe the ages are historical, and I also think that any manipulation of numbers to generate 'patterns' is somewhat artificial.

 

Hi, Ray. Thanks for the reply.

 

I want to be clear: you are saying that the pattern I illustrated is pure coincidence. Is this correct?

 

Thank you.

 

Phanta

[VacuumFlux]

If I remember right, 7 is the number of heaven or God (or perhaps all holy things?), while 6 is the number of man. 5, I don't know. 3, what db-px said, the unbreakable bond.

 

The numbers in the OT shows that numerology was probably underlying the early religious ideas. It wouldn't surprise me if we couldn't find the same numbers and symbolic meaning in the Babylonian and Sumerian religions.

 

I haven't found any yet. Has anyone else?

 

7 is the number of completion/perfection. Supposedly 5 is the number of grace, according to this biblical numerology site.

 

As a Christian, I believed the numbers had both historical and mystical meanings. People lived a long time because it was pre-flood, and closer to the garden of Eden, so the curse hadn't gotten quite as bad as it would later (the earth is decaying). After the flood, God limits human lifespans to 120 years. One explanation I've heard for this is the ice canopy theory, that the "floodgates of heaven" that opened during the flood was a shell of ice around the earth that was like a super ozone, protecting us from harmful cosmic radiation and making the whole earth's land surface habitable, like a giant greenhouse.

 

Now, I think it was all just mystical meanings. I get the idea that a lot of ancient cultures sorta worshiped numbers like they worshiped things in the sky. Think Stonehenge, they built all that to track the motions of celestial objects. And Plato formed a cult around math. I guess, when you don't have a highly educated populace and only the rich/priests/educated know math, it would seem like magic. But I haven't studied ancient cultures enough to know whether I'm just way off track here.

[dB-Paradox]

I believe the ages are historical, and I also think that any manipulation of numbers to generate 'patterns' is somewhat artificial.

 

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

that's my 2cents

Interesting. I suppose the kings mentioned in the Sumerian King list must have lived an even S L O W E R pace, lived MORE off the land, and were even better specimens than those mentioned in the bible. And they must have had even LESS accumulated mutations in their genomes! Just read it and weep!

[andyjj]

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

Of course why didn't I think of that! Human beings have (d)evolved in the meantime to have shorter lifespans - all in the space of a few thousand years.

 

Strange that fossil human remains predating the patriarchs seem to have shorter lifespans than modern humans......

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

If I remember right, 7 is the number of heaven or God (or perhaps all holy things?), while 6 is the number of man. 5, I don't know. 3, what db-px said, the unbreakable bond.

 

The numbers in the OT shows that numerology was probably underlying the early religious ideas. It wouldn't surprise me if we couldn't find the same numbers and symbolic meaning in the Babylonian and Sumerian religions.

7 is the number of the 7 gods of heaven, the 7 main gods or gods who decree fate (anunna(ki)).

 

I've long suspected there would be some deeper connections between the patriarchs and the babylonian religion, as there is with the earlier stories. I didn't suspect the ages though.

 

The Sumerians and Babylonians invented numerology, and hebrew numerology seems derived from it.

 

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

I believe the ages are historical, and I also think that any manipulation of numbers to generate 'patterns' is somewhat artificial.

 

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

that's my 2cents

You're 2cents is baloney. You can't tell me that Abraham and his sons, purportedly living in times of famine and chaos, in Mesopotamia and Canaan (when Canaan was actually being abandoned like much of Mesopotamia due to famine), that they lived a prosperous live to age 80 and have me believe you. But over 100? That's just crazy.

I know alot about the region at that time, and the way in which they lived. I can tell you as a matter of fact, you'd be lucky if you made it to 50.

 

And the longest people can live is in their early 100's, at least until science fixes that too like it has done with alot of other causes of death.

 

Maybe there isn't a specific number pattern intentionally put into the ages. I do, however, find the number patterns to be curious and worth looking into.

[Phanta]

Thanks for the reply, Babylonian Dream

 

Maybe there isn't a specific number pattern intentionally put into the ages. I do, however, find the number patterns to be curious and worth looking into.

 

I agree. There comes a point at which it becomes extremely unlikely that a pattern is a coincidence. I am not a statistician, but I question if this pattern exceeds that point.

 

Abraham= 7(5²)

Isaac= 5(6²)

Jacob= 3(7²)

Joseph= 1[(5²)+(6²)+(7²)] (sum of predecessors' respective squares)

 

Thus ends Genesis.

 

Phanta

[Ouroboros]

I read somewhere once that there are quite a bit of numerological stuff baked into the first chapter of Genesis as well. It had to do with the words and letters in Hebrew, I think. And it's in the Cabala.

 

 

It's well known that numerology has been part of mystery religions in ancient times. The Pythagoreans, for instance, had a whole religious cult built around numbers. And the very strange "coincidence" that one of the Pythagoreans' mystery numbers occur in the Gospels too. In the case of the dyad (two intersecting circles), called Vesica piscis (fish bladder), has one magical number 153, which is the number of fish the disciples catch in John 21:11. One have to wonder how the Hellenistic influenced Greek Christians, with the knowledge of the ancient philosophers, would ever have made such a coincidental connection.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vesica_piscis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyad_%28symbol%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism

 

The creation story with 7 days is not by pure chance either. Isn't the number 7 mentioned in the genealogy of Jesus in Luke (77 generations or something like that)?

 

The same goes for all the triplets: the trinity, 12 disciples (3*4), Jesus starting his ministry at 30 and ending at 33 (IIRC), etc. I wonder if the choice of 66 books in the Bible has something to do with this too.

 

And wasn't the choice to keep four gospels because they represent the "four corners of the world"?

[Phanta]

Thanks, Hans. Interesting leads.

 

"If coincidences are just coincidences, why do they feel so contrived?" - Fox Mulder

 

- Phanta

[mwc]

Abraham= 7(5²)

Isaac= 5(6²)

Jacob= 3(7²)

Joseph= 1[(5²)+(6²)+(7²)]

As I recall the way Egyptians assigned numbers it was odd numbers that were male and even numbers that were female. The number one is special in that it's both (which is how they saw the number 1 itself...as neither even nor odd really). So you have the list of males and then Joseph who was "both" or a type of gender neutral.

 

The number 7 is the number of perfection or completion (things of that nature). The number 5 is usually the five senses. Three is lots of things but it's the first male and the third dimension and two is the first female. The two them them together (2 and 3) combine to make 6 which is the world (or also man in its "perfect" form).

 

Adam, not mentioned here, grew to the ripe old age of 30²+30 and Joseph aged to 10²+10 (in case anyone cares).

 

mwc

[Phanta]

Adam, not mentioned here, grew to the ripe old age of 30²+30 and Joseph aged to 10²+10 (in case anyone cares).

 

Yes, I read that as well. Thanks for mentioning it here.

 

So, do you think the pattern is intentional?

 

Phanta

[mwc]

Yes, I read that as well. Thanks for mentioning it here.

 

So, do you think the pattern is intentional?

Of course. YHWH likes to make things interesting...

 

 

But the pattern you mentioned is intentional as well (I've been waiting for you to get out of Genesis 1 so you might get into some more interesting parts of the book). The three unify in Joseph. The story then just ends. But then it gets picked up again, for no real reason, in Exodus. But before that you have Adam coming to completion in Joseph. Then you have the perfection of Abraham coming down to unity in Joseph. It all comes down to Joseph. He's the culmination of the entire thing. The big finish. Then the awkward sequel by some other author comes along and wrecks it.

 

mwc

[Phanta]

(I've been waiting for you to get out of Genesis 1 so you might get into some more interesting parts of the book)

 

*chuckle* I am a slow mover. I plan to know whole swaths of the Biblical library...not memorize scripture, but know things. Maybe I should be a Biblical scholar. Why not.

 

Thanks for the thoughts re: Joseph, Adam, and the in-betweens. I'm looking forward to future discussion. I've been thinking a lot about the lively literary parallels between the story of Joseph and the story of Tamar.

 

Phanta

[Observant Noahide]

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

 

Phanta, Hi, This question is not something I understand - so I e-mailed a Rabbi, this is his reply and he has invited you to write to him - he is very approachable and very knowledgeable...

 

Good Morning:

 

Good questions....

 

As a Bas Noach not all answers should be forthcoming as the answer is kabbalasitic in nature and only a local rabbi would be contacted for those answers.

 

First. In the time of the bible people lived a long time. Mortality for Adam and Eve was 1000 years for eve and 930 for adam. From there the time due to many factors reduced until about the 1800....early 1900 ce. Modern medical science helped out in that area. And as you see today we are inching up to 120 years which is considered, biblically, fullness of life.

 

I find the questions interesting. The ages are biblical and as many know there are historical basis to these. Those that have issues with that also, in my opinion, have issues with the bible. STAM....what it says is what happened.

 

The math is a coincidence comment is just rude. I dont know who is asking these but they are NOT biblical folks and therefore you are wasting your time with them.

 

Torah is an interesting book. Science has discovered that much of what is says is true and that over 3000 years after its giving we, the scientific community has found out its all true.

 

Thanks for asking...and the person who wrote to you ... you are more than welcome to give them my address and ill talk to them directly...cc you of couse..

 

be well...

RDY

 

Go for it he is a really nice guy. Let me know how you get on Phanta. I would really like to be copied in as I am most interested in finding out more - always love to learn - and this is an interesting subject!

 

You mentioned something a little while ago on Numbers 30 - in connection with what?

 

Warm regards

 

Observant Noahide.

[★ Citsonga ★]

The poll needs another option:

 

• Who knows what the hell the Bible writers were smoking?

 

As far as when I was a believer, I would have said that the ages were historically accurate and that the math was merely coincidental.

[mwc]

First. In the time of the bible people lived a long time. Mortality for Adam and Eve was 1000 years for eve and 930 for adam. From there the time due to many factors reduced until about the 1800....early 1900 ce. Modern medical science helped out in that area. And as you see today we are inching up to 120 years which is considered, biblically, fullness of life.

Interesting.

 

I imagine that the evidence for this is right there...in the bible. It does say people lived a long time. So they did. <slaps hands> Problem solved.

 

I find the questions interesting. The ages are biblical and as many know there are historical basis to these. Those that have issues with that also, in my opinion, have issues with the bible. STAM....what it says is what happened.

Well, there we go: "what is says is what happened." Can't argue with that. Seriously. There's no arguing with that. That statement ends all argumentation.

 

The math is a coincidence comment is just rude. I dont know who is asking these but they are NOT biblical folks and therefore you are wasting your time with them.

That's true. A comment that says that something may be a coincidence is just rude. How dare someone imply that coincidences occur? Especially when we know that "what is says is what happened." Rude. Just plain rude. I agree. This was planned. Whoever wrote this text wanted these ages to be what they are.

 

But I am not a "biblical folk" so I'm probably just wasting your time.

 

Torah is an interesting book. Science has discovered that much of what is says is true and that over 3000 years after its giving we, the scientific community has found out its all true.

True enough. Rabbits chew cud. Bats are birds. The scientific community is only now realizing these things and so much more using the "cherry picking" method. It has really helped "truth seekers" from all walks of life.

 

mwc

[Guest Babylonian Dream]

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

 

Phanta, Hi, This question is not something I understand - so I e-mailed a Rabbi, this is his reply and he has invited you to write to him - he is very approachable and very knowledgeable...

 

Good Morning:

 

Good questions....

 

As a Bas Noach not all answers should be forthcoming as the answer is kabbalasitic in nature and only a local rabbi would be contacted for those answers.

 

First. In the time of the bible people lived a long time. Mortality for Adam and Eve was 1000 years for eve and 930 for adam. From there the time due to many factors reduced until about the 1800....early 1900 ce. Modern medical science helped out in that area. And as you see today we are inching up to 120 years which is considered, biblically, fullness of life.

How do we know the Bible is right? Why aren't the amorites right? The ancient amorites said that Adam and Adamah/Hawah (Eve) were a god and a goddess, and didn't die at all.

 

I find the questions interesting. The ages are biblical and as many know there are historical basis to these.

Does that also mean that there is a historical basis for Etana living to be 1,500 years old?

 

Torah is an interesting book. Science has discovered that much of what is says is true and that over 3000 years after its giving we, the scientific community has found out its all true.

I'd agree that the Torah can be an interesting book, especially parts of Genesis. However, I'm not so sure that science has been confirming what the Bible has said all too often. (generous understatement on my part)

[Ouroboros]

If they lived so long, it means that their mitochondrial DNA was very different than the one we all share today (and we share with Homo neandertalis).

 

How come the mtDNA is very similar to the once you find in animals? And how come the markers show a closer relationship with apes than other animals?

 

I guess that somewhere along the line, the early men were interbreeding with female apes. And that's how the animal mtDNA got introduced in the human line.

[Guest Valk0010]

I thought this was interesting and would enjoy hearing the ideas about this of both believers and non-believers. If non-believers want to speak from their former beliefs, that would be cool, too.

 

Thanks!

 

Phanta

I believe the ages are historical, and I also think that any manipulation of numbers to generate 'patterns' is somewhat artificial.

 

As to why the patriarchs lived longer compared to us? Probably due to 'life' being lived at a slower pace, living off the land, and I think that from a physical standpoint they were better specimens than we are; i.e., they had less accumulated mutations in their genomes.

 

that's my 2cents

Most of this is male bovine excrement, but I want a source for the part about mutations, and please.