Why Burst Their Bubble?

[Margee]

So the lovely Friday 'up lifting' topic of discussion in my shop today was 'death'. Everybody that comes in my shop has someone dying or full of disease. Now, these people are all just sweethearts, but it seems as if that's all they want to talk about, including the 'what's this world comin' to', which I have to hear about all day. Then there's the weight problems, sex problems, weather problems, marriage problems and gossip about there next door neighbor that I have to listen to all day long. I f you ever wonder why I celebrate on Friday with a big YA -HOO - that's why!

 

Anyway, all these people today talked about these recent relatives who had just died in the last 3 months and how they are all now in Heaven talking to dad, mom, gramma, sister, brother,or friend. One lady inparticular, who just lost her 51 year old son about 3 weeks ago (very sad) seems to be doing OK, because she just KNOWS that he's with his Father now, talking together in Heaven..

 

I would never 'burst their bubbles' - would you?

[Ouroboros]

I would never 'burst their bubbles' - would you?

Right. I wouldn't. This website is the only place where I really discuss and go head-to-head with religious belief. In real life, I let people believe whatever they want.

[par4dcourse]

They can have a big ole cup full of whatever as long as they don't insist I drink.

[Sybaris]

My wife lost her mom when she was 12 and the thought of reuniting is her main draw to christianity, otherwise I think I'd have a pretty good shot at convincing her it's all bunk.

[Overcame Faith]

I don't burst people's bubbles, most especially when they are mourning the loss of a loved one. But I have heard of Christians telling those in mourning that their loved one is in hell when, for example, the loved one committed suicide. That's more than just bursting a bubble. That's cruelty.

 

And when you say "Ya-Hoo" is that the yell for joy or the chocolate drink?

[Margee]

I don't burst people's bubbles, most especially when they are mourning the loss of a loved one. But I have heard of Christians telling those in mourning that their loved one is in hell when, for example, the loved one committed suicide. That's more than just bursting a bubble. That's cruelty.

 

And when you say "Ya-Hoo" is that the yell for joy or the chocolate drink?

 

Oh my god Overcame - This is so true! I was in a church one time where someones sister died and the pastor of the church asked the lady right in front of everyone: 'Was she Saved'. and the lady said -'no'. and the pastor said, what a shame to spend eternity in hell! The whole church broke out in waling and I got up and left! I couldn't believe my ears!!

 

P.S.The yell is for both and I don't have to talk to anymore people until next Tuesday!! YA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Overcame Faith]

P.S.The yell is for both and I don't have to talk to anymore people until next Tuesday!! YA-HOOOOOOOOOOOO

 

Well, here's my Ya-hoo yell along with yours. And the next time I drink a Yahoo, I'll toast you in my mind.

[Knetti]

In this context, I absolutely wouldn't "burst their bubble." Everyone needs to grieve in their own way and if it makes them feel better to know their loved one is in Heaven with other relatives, then that's what they need to get through it.

[HappyChef]

I see it as children believing in Santa Clause why start a whining fight if it serves no purpose. The only way I burst their bubble is if they insist I believe in their Santa as well. This is after a polite change of subject or refusal didn't work.

[Jds22]

I've thought about this quite a bit too. On the one hand there are those that are convinced their departed loved ones are in heaven. I see no reason to burst their bubble. But what about those that think they have a loved one in hell? My mother in law is sure that her late sister is in hell. They were very close and she died a few years ago from breast cancer. My MIL tried to witness to her on her death bed and she told my MIL she did not want to hear it, she wasn't interested. This absolutely tore my MIL up. She is sure that her sister is burning right now.

 

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

[stryper]

if someone asks me, I tell them my belief.

 

But usually, I try not to bring it up. Given my extended family make up you can guess why.

[Overcame Faith]

I've thought about this quite a bit too. On the one hand there are those that are convinced their departed loved ones are in heaven. I see no reason to burst their bubble. But what about those that think they have a loved one in hell? My mother in law is sure that her late sister is in hell. They were very close and she died a few years ago from breast cancer. My MIL tried to witness to her on her death bed and she told my MIL she did not want to hear it, she wasn't interested. This absolutely tore my MIL up. She is sure that her sister is burning right now.

 

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

 

You definitely bring up the other side of the eternal coin. The doctrine of hell is so cruel.

[oddbird1963]

I don't try to burst people's bubbles, especially when they have experienced recent or traumatic loss. I don't have a need or a sense of entitlement to intrude upon other people's lives and try to force them to agree with me.

 

Where it gets dicey is when it becomes apparent that the grieving person wants you to join in and affirm these beliefs. It doesn't happen that much, but it does happen.

[Margee]

I've thought about this quite a bit too. On the one hand there are those that are convinced their departed loved ones are in heaven. I see no reason to burst their bubble. But what about those that think they have a loved one in hell? My mother in law is sure that her late sister is in hell. They were very close and she died a few years ago from breast cancer. My MIL tried to witness to her on her death bed and she told my MIL she did not want to hear it, she wasn't interested. This absolutely tore my MIL up. She is sure that her sister is burning right now.

 

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

 

You definitely bring up the other side of the eternal coin. The doctrine of hell is so cruel.

 

I agree completely with Overcame! I would try to find the right words to explain that whole hell doctrine. There isn't any need for loved ones to suffer this way!! My boy is gay and I have reaasured him that there is no hell that any type of loving god would ever do this to him!

[Overcame Faith]

I've thought about this quite a bit too. On the one hand there are those that are convinced their departed loved ones are in heaven. I see no reason to burst their bubble. But what about those that think they have a loved one in hell? My mother in law is sure that her late sister is in hell. They were very close and she died a few years ago from breast cancer. My MIL tried to witness to her on her death bed and she told my MIL she did not want to hear it, she wasn't interested. This absolutely tore my MIL up. She is sure that her sister is burning right now.

 

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

 

You definitely bring up the other side of the eternal coin. The doctrine of hell is so cruel.

 

I agree completely with Overcame! I would try to find the right words to explain that whole hell doctrine. There isn't any need for loved ones to suffer this way!! My boy is gay and I have reaasured him that there is no hell that any type of loving god would ever do this to him!

 

You're a good mother, Margee. I really mean that.

[♦ nivek ♦]

They can have a big ole cup full of whatever as long as they don't insist I drink.

 

 

par,

 

As quick and concise an answer as I've seen on subject.

 

Mind if I steal use of that for my tag?

 

kL

[8gr8cats]

I'm honest- I just say I don't believe in the supernatural. I believe that the life we have upon the earth is truly full enough. While our loved ones are no longer with us...they are always a part of us.

 

It's not a matter of bursting anyone's bubble or telling them what to believe. It's letting your own truth be known, because you never know if your friend or relative is teetering on the brink of believing in reality. HOSPICE is very good about presenting death in very real terms as a part of life... the last part. Sometimes your friend really wants a dose of reality.

 

I never scoff at their heaven or angels or the like... I just do let what I believe be known.

 

Death is a vulnerable time... pastors use it all the time to bring people to their religion. It can also be an important time of learning about what is real!

[Vomit Comet]

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

Case-in-point: it cuts both ways.

 

It can be a bubble if the loved one in question is saved, but if they're not, it's a bed of nails.

 

I remember how much dread I was wracked with, knowing that my parents and virtually all my other relatives were hell bound. Not to mention 99% of everyone I'd ever known before I got saved at the age of 15. If you're in Los Angeles, fundies are by no means absent but neither are they a vast and conspicuous horde as they would be in a place like Macon, Georgia. In L.A. they're more invisible than visible, let's put it that way.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

Hell is such a central tenet of their faith that you may as well attack the whole kit-and-kaboodle head-on. Fundie Christianity without their version of hell is like someone saying to a bartender "I'll have a gin-and-tonic, hold the gin."

[Margee]

My older fundamentalist brother has a son, my nephew, that is gay. He is convinced his son is going to hell. He suffered from depression and anxiety for about 2 years after finding out. He's better now but still struggles.

 

Case-in-point: it cuts both ways.

 

It can be a bubble if the loved one in question is saved, but if they're not, it's a bed of nails.

 

I remember how much dread I was wracked with, knowing that my parents and virtually all my other relatives were hell bound. Not to mention 99% of everyone I'd ever known before I got saved at the age of 15. If you're in Los Angeles, fundies are by no means absent but neither are they a vast and conspicuous horde as they would be in a place like Macon, Georgia. In L.A. they're more invisible than visible, let's put it that way.

 

I've often wondered if I should say something to them. Maybe somehow try to educate them on how the hell myth originated, spread, and became part of Christian doctrine?

 

Hell is such a central tenet of their faith that you may as well attack the whole kit-and-kaboodle head-on. Fundie Christianity without their version of hell is like someone saying to a bartender "I'll have a gin-and-tonic, hold the gin."

 

This is a very good point vomit.

[Vomit Comet]

Fundie Christianity is a negative force in our American society. In the rest of the industrialized world it is a tiny, negligible curiosity. In Italy a city of a few hundred thousand will have dozens upon dozens of Catholic churches, some of them older than Christopher Colombus, and there might be exactly one evangelical church in the whole city. They'll be viewed in the same manner in the same manner as we Americans might view that Kurdish sect (Yazedzi or something?) that worships Lucifer in the form of a peacock: a bizarre and foreign curiosity far too small to ever make waves.

 

In America, it is a different story. It'd be one thing if we were some obscure little place that nobody has ever heard of, such as Laos or Slovakia. As it stands now, we are the world hegemon. When we sneeze, the rest of the world jumps. And we have a massive and very aggressive contingent of fundies. They are now the dominant form of American religion. Whine all you want, those of you who sympathize with them, but the fact of the matter is that the respectable old mainline Protestant churches are now watching from the sidelines. Today they're as much of a counterbalance as Yugoslavia was to the Soviet Union.

 

When I first deconverted, I swore to myself that I wouldn't turn into a fucking dick like that Richard Dawkins guy and the elitist assholes that follow him. I would just keep an amiable distance and live at peace in the same country as them. But then John McCain selected Sarah Palin as his running mate. What 9/11 was for Richard Harris and those others, Sarah Palin was for me.

 

I realized that "agreeing to disagree" would no longer be an option. It's not just that people like me suffer under its cruel doctrines and inhumane constraints. It's that they do have the power to inflict their brand of madness upon us, and by extension, upon the rest of the world. Fucking shit, Bush himself said with a straight face that the Lard told him to invade Iraq, and whether or not he meant it, he said it to get the fundies riled up. And if he did mean it, holy fucking shit!

 

Many disagree with how the so-called 'New Atheists' go about it, and many of these so-called New Atheists are indeed humorless pricks who condescend to the rest of the world. I am an agnostic myself; some of them would think I was a pussy. But I agree with them in that the negative force of fundyism must be counteracted with merciless criticism and, where it is effective, ridicule. Making fun of Kluxers for being inbred green-toothed sister-fuckers is effective because even in the South they're a minority. Fundies aren't so easy to pick on. Still, let the lights of reason and humanity shine. The Enlightenment is not dead!

 

With that said, if someone's mourning for a loved one it's neither the time or place to bring down the hammer. This should be taking place in the public arena!

[Sybaris]

I realized that "agreeing to disagree" would no longer be an option. It's not just that people like me suffer under its cruel doctrines and inhumane constraints. It's that they do have the power to inflict their brand of madness upon us, and by extension, upon the rest of the world.

 

 

Right. Why should their ignorance be woven into public law and international policy?

 

 

This chap seems to agree:

 

http://machineslikeus.com/news/why-atheism-winning-1-current-state

 

"We are told that we must respect the sincerely held beliefs of religious people and not offend them by asking awkward questions as to why religious people believe what they do or pointing out all the logical and evidentiary contradictions. It is never made clear why we should give religion this special privilege that is not extended to other sincerely held beliefs concerning politics or history or human behavior. In every area of knowledge other than religion, shining the bright light of reason and science on it is seen as desirable, a way of separating truth from falsehood and the credible from the absurd."

[Suzy]

So the lovely Friday 'up lifting' topic of discussion in my shop today was 'death'. Everybody that comes in my shop has someone dying or full of disease. Now, these people are all just sweethearts, but it seems as if that's all they want to talk about, including the 'what's this world comin' to', which I have to hear about all day. Then there's the weight problems, sex problems, weather problems, marriage problems and gossip about there next door neighbor that I have to listen to all day long. I f you ever wonder why I celebrate on Friday with a big YA -HOO - that's why!

 

Anyway, all these people today talked about these recent relatives who had just died in the last 3 months and how they are all now in Heaven talking to dad, mom, gramma, sister, brother,or friend. One lady inparticular, who just lost her 51 year old son about 3 weeks ago (very sad) seems to be doing OK, because she just KNOWS that he's with his Father now, talking together in Heaven..

 

I would never 'burst their bubbles' - would you?

 

 

 

 

I wouldn't either. If it gives them comfort, why should I?

 

 

 

[JadedAtheist]

At a friend's funeral a few years ago I was asked to speak and I was *this* close to giving a gospel presentation. Since my friend was "unsaved" this would have been in such bad taste. Thankfully, I didn't go ahead with it.

 

Even as a Christian I was quite reserved about my faith. I figured actions speak louder than words so when people found out I was a Christian it'd have more impact. The same applies now. I've had someone just the other day tell me they couldn't believe I was an atheist (maybe because they were going on about their faith and I didn't cut them down Richard Dawkins style). If someone was to tell me that they know that so-and-so is in heaven now I won't piss on their parade. If they ask me what I believe though I'd be honest but at least the sting of my views now is lighter than that of my views as a fundy.

[Margee]

Fundie Christianity is a negative force in our American society.

When we sneeze, the rest of the world jumps. And we have a massive and very aggressive contingent of fundies. When I first deconverted, I swore to myself that I wouldn't turn into a fucking dick like that Richard Dawkins guy and the elitist assholes that follow him. I would just keep an amiable distance and live at peace in the same country as them. I realized that "agreeing to disagree" would no longer be an option. It's not just that people like me suffer under its cruel doctrines and inhumane constraints. It's that they do have the power to inflict their brand of madness upon us, and by extension, upon the rest of the world. Fucking shit, Bush himself said with a straight face that the Lard told him to invade Iraq, and whether or not he meant it, he said it to get the fundies riled up. And if he did mean it, holy fucking shit!

 

Many disagree with how the so-called 'New Atheists' go about it, and many of these so-called New Atheists are indeed humorless pricks who condescend to the rest of the world. I am an agnostic myself; some of them would think I was a pussy. But I agree with them in that the negative force of fundyism must be counteracted with merciless criticism and, where it is effective, ridicule. Making fun of Kluxers for being inbred green-toothed sister-fuckers is effective because even in the South they're a minority. Fundies aren't so easy to pick on. Still, let the lights of reason and humanity shine. The Enlightenment is not dead!

 

With that said, if someone's mourning for a loved one it's neither the time or place to bring down the hammer. This should be taking place in the public arena!

 

I agree with so much of your post Vomit, although I must not know too much about Atheism just yet because I don't mind Richard Dawkins? is there something wrong with me? I have watched so many of his debates and I find him to be quite a gentleman. You guys can straighten me out on this - I don't mind, because I am just learning.

 

I feel the worst thing that we could do as agnostics and atheists is to become the 'opposing opponents' who are ready to go to 'war'.

I feel as 'unbelievers', we might try to act 'gently' in our ventures, to show the world what religion has done.The old saying that you can win with 'Honey' as opposed to 'vinegar' stands true most of the time, don't you think? Oh yes, we have those aggressive type of people who intimidate and try to scare the shit out of you - But I generally don't have time for this type of personality. You can always win me over with a 'soft' voice and that's what I plan on using when I try to confront people.

 

Fundamentalism is not for me anymore.That's why I don't like politics - too many promises and too much fighting! I will not be a 'fundi' agnostic or atheist - this will not be the way I do it. That to me, is just as bad as the Fundy's who scream: 'Fags, go to hell'!

[searchinwithnoagenda]

"I would never 'burst their bubbles' - would you?"

 

 

If you depend on them for your livelihood, I would not burst their bubble. But maybe you could lay out literature that challenges their beliefs. If you have not yet checked out the "Brief Bible Blunders" videos on youtube, you might look into those 1-3 minute vids and consider recommending them to your patrons. I also like the "whywontgodhealamputees" web site and the link on that site entitled "godisimaginary". Best wishes and let us know what you decide to do...burst or not burst.