Guest sbwilley Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Yes, I think shock is the problem with your family right now. When I pulled my hands off the plow, my wife said she thought her whole world was being pulled out from under her. In a sense, it was. We no longer had the same friends. I took a job in the commercial sector, and we moved all within a year. She was afraid I was going to leave just because I was leaving the church. People could feel betrayed. You can't let that force your decision though. People could feel distrustful of you also. Your parents could think you are about to become a criminal. Many Christians think the Bible is the only real source of morality. There is no evidence of any supernatural origin for morality though. Even animals treat one another ethically most of the time. Reassure your family in a loving, assertive way, that you are the same person you've always been. Keep reading deep things, and be prepared to give an answer. For every day reading, I recommend Scientific American, Skeptic, Skeptical Inquirer, and Philosophy Now. You can get them on the news stand. Good luck battling the superstition and superficiality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnosis of Disbelief Posted November 5, 2005 Share Posted November 5, 2005 Hello cincyunixguy, Give it time. You probably don't have any choice but to be patient and see if your folks accept your choices or not. From what you say on your web site, you've been going through a lot of change over the past few years, and not just the decoversion, either. Together, it may all be more than they can handle right now. Can't really give you any other advice, because really, you know your parents better than anyone here. I do wish you the best of luck, however, and hope things work out for you in the end. Oh, and welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Welcome from a fellow Cincinnatian! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sbwilley Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 By the way, Amethyst, not all Christian sects teach that damnation at the time of judgement results in eternal torture. Some teach a doctirne of "second death." Everybody is resurrected, the first is unto life. The second is unto death (Revelation 20:14). The damned are put to death, utterly and finally, along with Hell and Death personified. The passages dealing with the lake of fire are sort of open to this interpretation. The real problem with the concept of eternal flame is, what if there's somebody you love who doesn't go to heaven? How could you live knowing that person is in eternal torment? Could it be the same old answer -- it's God's will, it must be right? If it doesn't make sense now, it wouldn't make sense then either. You're correct below. The eternally burning hell doctrine was created by people (very powerful priests) to keep other people under tight control and poverty. They sculpted demons somewhere near the doorway to most of the major church buildings in Europe to serve as a constant reminder. Religion doesn't have a monopoly on being judgemental, either. Almost everybody makes value judgements in deciding who to socialize with. You generally choose friends who share your values. Muck mongering is different, and that's what's happening in the congregation. There's many a muck mongering atheist out there too. I can't imagine that every cop I ever met was a theist. Then there are the judges who, in most people's encounters with the courts, act as prosecutors (no district attorney ever being present). Hi, welcome. You are not the only one who has gone through this. IMHO, many Christians are judgemental because they are brainwashed to be. Many of them don't know how to be anything else, especially the fundies. When you have a religion that teaches you that god will judge people in the very end and some of them will burn for all of eternity, you don't want to be one of the people who will go to hell. So you don't associate with them and you do look down on them because you "know" they will be burning in hell, but you won't be. The problem with that is that I don't think anyone actually deserves to burn in hell for all of eternity. Maybe like a million years for a serial killer or child abuser or something. But eternity? Come on. Why torture people for all of eternity for a finite crime? Nobody deserves that. And why torture people for all of eternity just because they were born in other countries, or families that weren't religious? That's unjust. IMHO, the hell doctrine is only what human beings want as vengeance, so that's why they put it in there. And it serves as a mind control device, too. 101879[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 By the way, Amethyst, not all Christian sects teach that damnation at the time of judgement results in eternal torture. Okay, but I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. Even if you take away the hell doctrine, and say that god is all peace, butterflies, rainbows, and lovey dovey and so on, you STILL have to prove that god and heaven exist. And nobody has been able to do that. The hell doctrine was a major reason I deconverted, but it was NOT the only one. But I do think this debate is in the wrong thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
asdf99 Posted November 9, 2005 Author Share Posted November 9, 2005 I thought I'd update you all on this. My mother wanted me to call and speak to her pastor about my de-converstion. I'd put it off for months and finally called him last week. I told him up front there was nothing he could say to convince me to come back to christianity. So rather I directed the conversation as what I could do about my mother. He basically gave the same advice this post has given. It will take time and he recommended I don't bring up religion unless she does. Just focus on good things in life and reassure her my life is good. So anyway, the other day my mom calls all cheery and eager to talk to me. This is the way she was prior to my decoversion. At first I wondered what was up and then she said she talked to her pastor the other day. She indicated that he said I had some things to work and that he and I would be talking again in the future. I never said I was going to call him again unless he plans on calling me. I think my mom's pastor gave her the impression that I was on my way back to christianity. I'll be honest with her if she brings up relgion and we talk about all this again. My hope is that I can avoid talking about religion. I will try to change the subject if it comes up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Sbwilley, I believe the thread you want is here: http://www.ex-christian.net/index.php?showtopic=4837 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest sbwilley Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 I'm not familiar with all of the threads at exchristian.net. I looked at the Lion's Den, and the accusations being thrown back and forth don't interest me for the most part. I'm not an apologist, but an atheist (for all practical purposes). I'm also a theologian and a pholosopher. My remark about hell was just an "oh, by the way." I received a notice about this thread in my e-mail and didn't know there were rules about the flavor of my response. And help me out here. If you say something in Testimonies and I want to comment on it, can I specify which thread the response goes into? Can I reply, but make it end up in the Arena? I have something to say about your remark, "you have to prove that god and heaven exist." Where does it belong, and how do I ensure it ends up there? By the way, Amethyst, not all Christian sects teach that damnation at the time of judgement results in eternal torture. Okay, but I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. Even if you take away the hell doctrine, and say that god is all peace, butterflies, rainbows, and lovey dovey and so on, you STILL have to prove that god and heaven exist. And nobody has been able to do that. The hell doctrine was a major reason I deconverted, but it was NOT the only one. But I do think this debate is in the wrong thread. 104200[/snapback] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 The general impression I am under is that this particular section of the boards is not meant for debating, but for testimonies. I was ranting, not trying to start a debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zach Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Amethyst- Correct- this section is not intended for debate. However, I don't think that sbwilley was intentionally starting a debate, but had intended to add to the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 Okay. I just didn't want it to turn into one, and it seemed like it was heading in that general direction. If he wants to debate me in the Lion's Den or wherever, I'm all for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kuroikaze Posted November 9, 2005 Share Posted November 9, 2005 For what its worth cincy I understand what your going through. As a christian I didn't really care about my familly that much, I kept them out of my life as much as posible. It was only after my deconversion that I actually started to want them as part of my life, which they were happy about till they found out I had deconverted. Now...things are just stressed between me and my parents. Compounded by there fear that I'll turn my younger sisters into heathens Well one of them already deconverted anyway, but thats a whole other can of worms. All that to say truthfully I don't know what you can do to fix it....its kinda your parents problem, they have been taught, just as we once were, that people who don't believe in christianity, athiests even more so, are just evil. It will take time for them to work though that type of thinking. I think there problem is less about you, and more about them trying to reconcile the world view they have been taught with the reality that they now know an unbeliever, and there own child on top of that, who doesn't seem so evil. I think its the fact that they know we are good people that really gives them pause, because it doesn't fit what they have heard in churches for years. Thats just my guess though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffXL Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Welcome, cincyunixguy! There's a tacit understanding with my parents that I'm no longer a believer, but I really lucked out with my family. I do hope they come to terms with this great decision-- still, this is Christian love? Yikes. And it is so true that the people here on Ex-C are like family. I love them all (even though they're a lot smarter than me)! Okay, but I was raised Missouri Synod Lutheran. 104200[/snapback] Greetings, fellow ex-LCMSer! My father wasn't so in love with the synod as we was with a church he might be comfortable in. From what I heard about other churches, this one was pretty tame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amethyst Posted November 10, 2005 Share Posted November 10, 2005 Greetings, fellow ex-LCMSer! My father wasn't so in love with the synod as we was with a church he might be comfortable in. From what I heard about other churches, this one was pretty tame. Ah. The one I grew up in was pretty fundy. I'm surprised my dad managed to remain as moderate as he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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