OBEs and premonitions

[pandora]

I pose this for Christians and ex-Christians alike... what are your theories? Psychological explanations or demonic explanations are both welcome. What do Christians think of a Christian who claims to be able to reach the other side? What do non-Christians think about these experiences? Are they real? Is there science to explain it?

 

My mother in law honestly claims to have seen dead people. As in Medium. Although she only sees people she knows (specifically her mom and brother). Supposedly, she is (sometimes) paralyzed when she sees them... so I explain it with sleep paralysis. However, one time (after my husband and I's wedding), she supposedly saw her mom driving a car and cut her and her husband off. Her husband didn't see the car. She could have just had a dream while she was sleeping (which is what I suspect).

 

She also claims to have seen her brother a week or so after he died, dancing in her room, dressed in a robe, and telling her heaven is fun.

 

She also has premonitions. She knew that she would get in a car wreck the day before she was in a really nasty car accident (but she is a very paranoid person). She also supposedly knew that her friend's son almost got hit by a train (it was a post-premonition, however... she had the vision two days after it happened...!?!?!?)

 

 

Thoughts?

[Dianka]

I don't want to be disrespectful in any way, my momma is a little kookey too.

 

I don't believe in anything supernatural. No premonitions, ghosts paranormal phenomena. Nuthin.

 

I feel you mother (again, no disrespet intended) is either "adding" in her descriptions of nomal experiences, or she is hallucinating.

[euphgeek]

I think there is more to it than simply hallucinations or embellishment. I have had the experience of some people telling me things about myself that they would have no way of knowing otherwise (and yes, I know all about "cold readings").

 

As far as what Christians think of this, the reactions have varied between "power of God" and "of the devil". Of course, fundamentalists always discount NDEs as being satanic because they disagree with their view of the world and religion.

 

I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss anyone's experience or the "supernatural" (a term I dislike, because I don't believe anything is supernatural). Science doesn't have all the answers. If it did, we would have been to Alpha Centauri and seen the plans by the Vogons to demolish Earth to make way for the hyperspace bypass.

[pandora]

Very true, euphgeek. I often wonder about supernatural experiences like these, and science hasn't really come up with a way to explain the "medium"-like experiences...

 

If someone knows of good reliable web pages to read on this, I am all ears... er... all fingers.

[euphgeek]

While this is not exactly an unbiased website, you could look at this page:

 

Scientific evidence for survival of consciousness after death

[qadeshet]

The most famous case of Precognition was a novel written by a merchant seaman by the name of Morgan Robertson.

 

The Wreck of the Titan

 

Robertson's book was about an unsinkable passenger liner that sank while carrying the elite people of the time.  The ship in Robertson's story was called the Titan and the book was titled The Wreck of the Titan.  Even though the book is fictitious, the events in the story parallel the events of the Titanic.  Both ships were built to be unsinkable.  Both ships sank after striking an iceberg.  Both ships were on their maiden voyage.  The most well to do famous people were on the Titan and Titanic.  Only one third of the passengers on each ship survived.  Both ships had an inadequate number of lifeboats.  Both ships were encouraged to break speed records during their voyage. 

 

    Robertson's book The Wreck of the Titan was never published.  Each time it was rejected by editor's, they told him the same thing.  The story was unbelievable.  Surely the events he wrote of could not possibly happen to an unsinkable ship.

 

    The book, The Wreck of the Titan was written in 1898, fourteen years before the Titanic hit an iceberg and settled on the bottom of the northern Atlantic.

 

The book can be downloaded free.

 

Download the Novel

 

Of course, this might have just been one heck of a coincidence.

[nightflight]

There could be natural explanations for these phenomena. The interaction of time and space or whatever. There is a book called The Holographic Universe which contains possible explanations for these things; though I haven't read it.

[spamandham]

What do non-Christians think about these experiences?  Are they real?  Is there science to explain it?

 

We don't have to guess, as it is actually possible to perform experiments!

 

A large fraction of OBE's involve looking down on your body from the ceiling. OBEs are also quite common in emergency rooms. A simple ethical experiment would involve placing some sort of random symbol facing the ceiling in emergency rooms where someone looking down could see it, but the staff could not. Then, interview people who went through the emergency rooms to find those who had OBEs, and ask them what the symbol was. Compare that to responses from others who did not experience OBEs, and do everything double blind. Case closed one way or the other.

 

I have suggested this experiment to several OBE proponents, and no-one seems to be interested in it. Those who promote these things seem to be interested in selling books and promoting lecture tours.

[qadeshet]

We don't have to guess, as it is actually possible to perform experiments!

 

It took me six months of daily practice to get my first OBE. I have never heard of anyone who can generate an Out of Body Experience on demand.

 

A large fraction of OBE's involve looking down on your body from the ceiling. OBEs are also quite common in emergency rooms. A simple ethical experiment would involve placing some sort of random symbol facing the ceiling in emergency rooms where someone looking down could see it, but the staff could not. Then, interview people who went through the emergency rooms to find those who had OBEs, and ask them what the symbol was. Compare that to responses from others who did not experience OBEs, and do everything double blind. Case closed one way or the other.

 

Even if someone got lucky in such a laboratory environment, coincidence could still be claimed.

 

I have suggested this experiment to several OBE proponents, and no-one seems to be interested in it. Those who promote these things seem to be interested in selling books and promoting lecture tours.

 

As far as books on OBE are concerned, the purpose of the writers may be unknowable, but probably will include in equal measure: self promotion, desire to teach, and money. We all want to get paid for our work. Either the techniques work or they don't. I was interested in proving to myself whether OBE is the same or different than Lucid Dreaming. The OBE is in no way supernatural.

[euphgeek]

What do non-Christians think about these experiences?   Are they real?  Is there science to explain it?

 

We don't have to guess, as it is actually possible to perform experiments!

 

A large fraction of OBE's involve looking down on your body from the ceiling. OBEs are also quite common in emergency rooms. A simple ethical experiment would involve placing some sort of random symbol facing the ceiling in emergency rooms where someone looking down could see it, but the staff could not. Then, interview people who went through the emergency rooms to find those who had OBEs, and ask them what the symbol was. Compare that to responses from others who did not experience OBEs, and do everything double blind. Case closed one way or the other.

 

I have suggested this experiment to several OBE proponents, and no-one seems to be interested in it. Those who promote these things seem to be interested in selling books and promoting lecture tours.

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The only trouble is, it's not case closed. People like James Randi who are determined to not believe in that stuff will invariably find something wrong with the experiment and thus find a reason to not believe. Kind of like creationists who try to poke holes in evolution.

 

And as far as selling books and promoting lecture tours, don't other scientists do that, too? Funding for that sort of research is kind of scarce, anyway, so they have to get money from somewhere. The desire to make money doesn't automatically make someone a fraud.

[Bodhi-in-Training]

We don't have to guess, as it is actually possible to perform experiments!

 

A large fraction of OBE's involve looking down on your body from the ceiling.  OBEs are also quite common in emergency rooms.  A simple ethical experiment would involve placing some sort of random symbol facing the ceiling in emergency rooms where someone looking down could see it, but the staff could not.  Then, interview people who went through the emergency rooms to find those who had OBEs, and ask them what the symbol was.  Compare that to responses from others who did not experience OBEs, and do everything double blind.  Case closed one way or the other

 

 

This study is in fact being done. The link to the article was here: OBE study Seems they have taken the article down in preparation to post the results of the study. However, I do have an bit of the article that was posted on another forum.

 

Out-of-body or all in the mind?

By Marnie Chesterton

 

One in 10 people have had an out-of-body experience, yet scientists know very little about the phenomenon. Researchers say a new study could bring us closer to the ultimate question of what happens when we die.

 

Out-of-body experiences involve a sensation of floating and seeing the physical body from the outside. They are often a symptom of the near-death experience, where people, whilst apparently dead, experience visions, tunnels of light and a feeling of peace, before being resuscitated.

 

These experiences are reported across many cultures and "experiencers" often cite them as life-changing events. Preliminary studies have shown that certain populations are more susceptible. Among students, for example, the incidence of out-of-body experiences (OBE) rises to 25%.

 

A team of scientists at the University of Manchester aims to study profile those who have and haven't had OBEs. Using an online questionnaire on body perceptions and experience, they aim to isolate differences between these groups. The survey will also gather details on the different kinds of OBEs people have, to categorise these experiences more precisely.

 

"There are several theories as to why people have OBEs," says David Wilde, the researcher running the project. "A common link between them is the idea that in certain circumstances the brain somehow loses touch with sensory information coming in from the body. This triggers a series of psychological mechanisms which can lead to someone having an OBE."

 

If someone has had an experience, then we take that as real - we can't disprove or prove anything

 

"It's a little bit like if you sleep on your arm and loose sensation in it. Only with an OBE, the sensation loss is in the whole body and the brain's response seems to be to create a feeling of separation from the self."

 

"In this study we aim to take the theory a stage further, by looking at the way people see and experience their bodies, and how - through perfectly ordinary psychological processes - these images and experiences may create the impression of seeing their bodies from the outside."

 

It isn't rare for people to have more than one OBE, and they may also occur as part of the wider near-death experience (NDE) some report experiencing in life-threatening circumstances.

 

Mr Wilde is at pains to stress that he doesn't judge whether OBEs are real.

 

"If someone has had an experience, then we take that as real. We can't disprove or prove anything."

 

 

Sam Parnia is looking at oxygen, CO2 and salt levels among patients

A different research approach comes from Dr Sam Parnia, who studies OBEs as part of his interest in near-death experiences. He is looking at reports of OBEs from cardiac arrest patients. He is conducting a national study, looking at physical factors that might cause this experience.

 

Reports of OBEs and NDEs are often simply anecdotal, but the hospital environment allows Sam Parnia to monitor and compare oxygen, carbon dioxide and salt levels in the patients who did and did not have either experience.

 

His study also involves a novel method of testing if the "self" actually does leave the body during an OBE. Sam has suspended boards below the ceiling and these have images on the upper side. The idea is that if people do look down from above, they may recall the extra information. As yet, no patients have reported seeing these images.

 

Whether these phenomena are visions of a dying brain or paranormal activity, Dr Parnia says science needs to offer an explanation of what happens when we die.

 

"I think that NDEs hold the key to finally solving this mystery. In studying them further we will be able to discover the true nature of the relationship between the mind and the brain and answer the wider questions regarding the existence of an afterlife."

[spamandham]

The only trouble is, it's not case closed.  People like James Randi who are determined to not believe in that stuff will invariably find something wrong with the experiment and thus find a reason to not believe.

 

I disagree. If the experiment had proper controls, I believe even the Amazing Randi would accept the results (assuming they could be independently repeated). He might not accept the assumption of why the experiment worked, but he (and I) would be compelled to accept perception at a distance as reality.

 

The problem isn't that people simply refuse to accept the evidence, the problem is that all the evidence to date is crap. The experiment I proposed would be nearly irrefutable as it is completely objective and has no selection bias (a control group who didn't have NDEs would serve that purpose).

 

The desire to make money doesn't automatically make someone a fraud.

 

True, but an unwillingness to engage in an experiment that is ethical and certainly seems low cost indicates a lack of scientific thinking.

[spamandham]

Even if someone got lucky in such a laboratory environment, coincidence could still be claimed.

 

That's an irrational claim if the results are statistically significant. The experiment can run for as long as necessary to gather sufficient data points. The stats are something like 1 in 10 people who approach death end up with an OBE. Any big city ER probably has several of those a day.

[spamandham]

This study is in fact being done. The link to the article was here: OBE study Seems they have taken the article down in preparation to post the results of the study. However, I do have an bit of the article that was posted on another forum.

 

That's awesome! I wonder if they got the idea from me? I've been promoting such an experiment for several years.

[Dhampir]

Don't know about OBE'S, but I have been having more and more premonitions myself that come to fruition. Personally, I think it's simply a subconscious gathering of information, processed in ways I either don't understand, or don't pay attention to, that result in a sudden picture of a likely future.

[euphgeek]

The only trouble is, it's not case closed.  People like James Randi who are determined to not believe in that stuff will invariably find something wrong with the experiment and thus find a reason to not believe.

 

I disagree. If the experiment had proper controls, I believe even the Amazing Randi would accept the results (assuming they could be independently repeated). He might not accept the assumption of why the experiment worked, but he (and I) would be compelled to accept perception at a distance as reality.

 

The problem isn't that people simply refuse to accept the evidence, the problem is that all the evidence to date is crap. The experiment I proposed would be nearly irrefutable as it is completely objective and has no selection bias (a control group who didn't have NDEs would serve that purpose).

If Randi would accept the results in such an experiment, why hasn't he accepted the results in other equally well-controlled experiments? Why did he make such a big deal over a tiny hole in a wall that would not have affected the outcome in one experiment? Why has he been quoted as saying, "I always have a way out"?

 

I sincerely doubt that James Randi would accept the results of any experiment that showed any psychic abilities or OBEs any more than Kent Hovind would accept the results of any experiment that proved evolution. But I hope I am proved wrong someday.

The desire to make money doesn't automatically make someone a fraud.

 

True, but an unwillingness to engage in an experiment that is ethical and certainly seems low cost indicates a lack of scientific thinking.

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Perhaps. And I'll admit there are some frauds who are only interested in making money. That's true of any field. Maybe for some reason those who you talked to simply weren't interested in such an experiment. Or maybe they knew that a study like the one Bodhi linked to was already being done.

[spamandham]

If Randi would accept the results in such an experiment, why hasn't he accepted the results in other equally well-controlled experiments?  Why did he make such a big deal over a tiny hole in a wall that would not have affected the outcome in one experiment?

 

I don't know what experiments you're referring to here. But it doesn't matter. There are others who would be interested in such experiments independent of Randi.

 

I sincerely doubt that James Randi would accept the results of any experiment that showed any psychic abilities or OBEs any more than Kent Hovind would accept the results of any experiment that proved evolution.  But I hope I am proved wrong someday.

 

Perhaps you're right. I certainly don't know the man personally. I do know his skepticism is well founded though. There is so much crap science, fraud, and deception in the psychic realm that it would be difficult to accept any positive affirmation even if the experiment was legit.

 

I wonder of OBE enthusiasts will accept the results of these types of experiments if the results do not confirm their preconception. I suspect almost all would simply look for excuses as to why such an experiment fails to demonstrate perception at a distance.

[Jose]

I wish someone would use me in an experiment!

 

I died on the operating table and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!

 

[Bodhi-in-Training]

I wish someone would use me in an experiment!

 

I died on the operating table and all I got was this lousy t-shirt!

 

That brings to mind the only question I have about it...how do you do a study like this one imparticular? Set up your experiments during every operation and hope someone dies on the table??

 

Brings back memories of Flatliners!

[Jose]

I kept rooting for Death in Flatliners.

 

No, wait... that was Final Destination 2 with that annoying bitch in it.

 

Nevermind. Flatliners was the one with Keifer Sutherland, Kevin "Look at my fucking mullet!" Bacon, and Julia Roberts in it. That was a pretty good movie, not because of the cast, but because of the premise of the experiment.

 

Trés cool.

[euphgeek]

If Randi would accept the results in such an experiment, why hasn't he accepted the results in other equally well-controlled experiments?  Why did he make such a big deal over a tiny hole in a wall that would not have affected the outcome in one experiment?

 

I don't know what experiments you're referring to here. But it doesn't matter. There are others who would be interested in such experiments independent of Randi.

My point was that no matter how convincing the results, there will always be people who remain unconvinced. Plus, Western culture traditionally rejects the results of such experiments.

I sincerely doubt that James Randi would accept the results of any experiment that showed any psychic abilities or OBEs any more than Kent Hovind would accept the results of any experiment that proved evolution.  But I hope I am proved wrong someday.

 

Perhaps you're right. I certainly don't know the man personally. I do know his skepticism is well founded though. There is so much crap science, fraud, and deception in the psychic realm that it would be difficult to accept any positive affirmation even if the experiment was legit.

That's just the Western culture mindset that I was talking about above. As far as I know, there is no more fraud and deception among psychics than there are among any other profession, and yet not many people say that all doctors are quacks or all lawyers are shysters.

I wonder of OBE enthusiasts will accept the results of these types of experiments if the results do not confirm their preconception.  I suspect almost all would simply look for excuses as to why such an experiment fails to demonstrate perception at a distance.

104853[/snapback]

That all depends, I suppose. When scientists are proved wrong on a detail of a theory, they don't throw out the whole theory. They modify the theory to fit the new results. In the same way, just because one OBE experiment failed doesn't mean that OBEs don't exist. And it may surprise you to find out that there have been a lot of scientific experiments done on OBEs. Off the top of my head, the US government did experiments on remote viewing. Police also use psychics to help them solve crimes, with remarkable success. There's just too much scientific evidence to completely dismiss psychic phenomena, OBEs or the afterlife. At least in my opinion.

[Lizard]

Having had a few "experiences" myself, I don't dismiss it outright. I can't "prove" what any of it was to anyone else, and not even sure most days to myself.

 

I think in alot of these areas, we simply don't have all the facts...yet. Some things cannot be explained at this time. Some day perhaps we will have the answers.

 

Supernatural? Nah..that implies beyond natural..just unexplained at this time.

[Jose]

I actually sowed the seeds for my deconversion on the operating table.

 

I was having throat surgery and it was the first time I had ever had general anesthetic. I asked the doctor what it would be like and he said that medically it's the closest to death you can get without actually dying.

 

I've heard that some people dream under anesthetic, but all I got was a black void right at first, where I had some lucid self-awareness, but only enough to realize that my senses were slowly (subjective) fading from my awareness.

 

Sight went first (I closed my eyes, obviously), then taste, then touch, then hearing, and surprisingly, the smell of antiseptic and freshly autoclaved surgical implements stuck with me until the big black was complete.

 

The absence of those smells and a different one (blood) were my first indications that I was coming out of it. Then feeling came back (cold, so fucking cold), then taste (blood), then sight, and last to come back was hearing. It was like watching a movie with the sound off for a while and then someone abruptly turned up the volume.

 

When I got home, I started really thinking about what I had experienced, namely, a complete lack of self-awareness.

 

That, I think, was one of the first little hints that maybe there's nothing out there waiting for me.

[spamandham]

I've heard that some people dream under anesthetic, but all I got was a black void right at first,

 

I had a similar experience. I was being injected with anesthetic and started to feel a little like being drunk, and then I found myself in recovery. There was no time between those events from my perspective.

 

This didn't plant seeds of doubt in me, but it did influence me later as I was having doubts. There's nothing unpleasant about not being. Once the lights turn off, you won't care if they never turn on again since you are not there.

[Taphophilia]

I have had about ten surguries in my adult life. In half of them I dreamed that I went to another "place", the other half I was knocked out and it seemed in the next instant I was in the recovery room.

 

My daughter has an uncanny ability to "read" people on the first meeting. It's like she can "feel" their energy. When she was a small baby she would have night terrors. She would scream like someone was murdering her. I would rush into her room and as soon as she woke up she was fine. I even took her to the doctor for this, and everything checked out. She has a birthmark over her heart and a corresponding one on her back. I read a while after I deconverted that birthmarks and night terrors in babies are residual trauma from a past life.

 

She also has verifiable 100 percent gaydar. She knows if someone is gay even if THEY don't know it yet. She IS quite the fag hag though.

 

I know these things can be explained but they keep me from switching over to athiest since there could be a possibility.