Legion Posted January 10, 2012 Share Posted January 10, 2012 row row row your boat..... gently............ row down the...... row stream.......... row merrily...... your boat.... merrily....... gently...........row merrily....... down the.....row merrily........stream..........row life is...........merrily.........your boat but a............merrily.........gently dream.........merrily.........down the ....................life is.............stream ....................but a..............merrily ....................dream...........merrily ...........................................merrily ...........................................merrily ...........................................life is ............................................but a ............................................dream Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 But my point is also that optimism is generally a mentally healthier state to be in in life than pessimism. I also don’t think optimism requires fanaticism. To me, materialism and “nothingness” is pessimism. Depends on what you mean by pessimism. It's no better an idea to caricature pessimism as dark and depressed than it is to characterize optimism as necessarily flaky. The way I look at it, unhappiness is the impedance mismatch between what you expect and what you get. It's decreased by either getting more or expecting less. The pessimist simply expects less. Paradoxically, when you do that, you may well actually be happier with whatever ends up coming your way, because your expectations are more often met or exceeded. Pessimism is necessary for me because as a youngster my expectations were improperly set way too high. "Naive" is a good adjective for it. It may even be that, relative to you, I have about the same expectations. Yours may have been more realistic all along; to get to your level I may have to overcompensate in a way I see as pessimistic but you just would consider normal. I may expect X and fight disappointment at settling for X when I really want X squared. You may have never aspired to more than X and think life is peachy. It's all relative ... I grew up in a stable, intact, loving family and was unable, for various reasons, to reproduce it on my own, much to my chagrin. My fiancee grew up in a royally screwed up dysfunctional family and managed NOT to reproduce it, much to her relief. Which of us is happier? She laughs far more often and heartily than I. Go figure. In a way she's pessimistic compared to me. She expects very little from life and nearly always gets more than she expects. She has always known that life is an absurd proposition and she merely laughs at the absurdity of it all. And here I am still trying to get over the idea that life is, or should be, a bowl of cherries! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 row row row your boat..... gently............ row down the...... row stream.......... row merrily...... your boat.... merrily....... gently...........row merrily....... down the.....row merrily........stream..........row life is...........merrily.........your boat but a............merrily.........gently dream.........merrily.........down the ....................life is.............stream ....................but a..............merrily ....................dream...........merrily ...........................................merrily ...........................................merrily ...........................................life is ............................................but a ............................................dream That's what I think! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 But my point is also that optimism is generally a mentally healthier state to be in in life than pessimism. I also don’t think optimism requires fanaticism. To me, materialism and “nothingness” is pessimism. Depends on what you mean by pessimism. It's no better an idea to caricature pessimism as dark and depressed than it is to characterize optimism as necessarily flaky. The way I look at it, unhappiness is the impedance mismatch between what you expect and what you get. It's decreased by either getting more or expecting less. The pessimist simply expects less. Paradoxically, when you do that, you may well actually be happier with whatever ends up coming your way, because your expectations are more often met or exceeded. Pessimism is necessary for me because as a youngster my expectations were improperly set way too high. "Naive" is a good adjective for it. It may even be that, relative to you, I have about the same expectations. Yours may have been more realistic all along; to get to your level I may have to overcompensate in a way I see as pessimistic but you just would consider normal. I may expect X and fight disappointment at settling for X when I really want X squared. You may have never aspired to more than X and think life is peachy. It's all relative ... I grew up in a stable, intact, loving family and was unable, for various reasons, to reproduce it on my own, much to my chagrin. My fiancee grew up in a royally screwed up dysfunctional family and managed NOT to reproduce it, much to her relief. Which of us is happier? She laughs far more often and heartily than I. Go figure. In a way she's pessimistic compared to me. She expects very little from life and nearly always gets more than she expects. She has always known that life is an absurd proposition and she merely laughs at the absurdity of it all. And here I am still trying to get over the idea that life is, or should be, a bowl of cherries! There is truth in what you say, but it still doesn't change the fact that hoping for an afterlife, and then dying and there being nothing... you aren't going to be disappointed because you won't know. Meanwhile, whichever reality ends up being true, it would depress the hell out of me to think "this is it". Though this doesn't mean I think other people "need to" have any type of spiritual belief. Whatever works for you is fine by me! I just think it can't be proven either way and there is just as much reason to think it's true as there is to think it's untrue. So to me this is the only version of Pascal's wager worth taking. Not like I'm restricting my life in any way by believing it or changing how I would behave otherwise, because I'm not. If there is nothing... I won't know it. No reason to be disappointed, or live in fear/depression over it. Some people think that people should just "come to grips with" their consciousness being "over" at death but... that can't even be proven. Why on earth should someone just "accept" something so negative just because someone else thinks they should face a reality they haven't proven? Some people's brains fundamentally aren't wired to be able to cope with that kind of outcome. Just like my brain was fundamentally unable to deal with Christianity. The same Christian beliefs that were positive for most of my family members turned me into a freaked-out basket case. It wasn't healthy for me, on any level. Materialism would be no more healthy for me. I respect if it's healthy for you and not pessimistic for you, but for me it is. And there's just no rational argument that makes it worth suffering my whole life over something that may not even be real in the first place (nothingness). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would not want you to change, either. Only to understand how others may think, which you seem genuinely open to. I always recommend Ernest Becker's Denial of Death. He is a philosopher and wrote it while he was dying. His thesis is that the denial of one's mortality is the fundamental fact of the human condition. You have to ignore the passages that go on an on deconstructing his hero, Freud, which he seemed to want to clear up some things about at the same time; but if you skip over that stuff he has some pretty good insight on why people fear death / mortality and how that dynamic plays out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 I would not want you to change, either. Only to understand how others may think, which you seem genuinely open to. I always recommend Ernest Becker's Denial of Death. He is a philosopher and wrote it while he was dying. His thesis is that the denial of one's mortality is the fundamental fact of the human condition. You have to ignore the passages that go on an on deconstructing his hero, Freud, which he seemed to want to clear up some things about at the same time; but if you skip over that stuff he has some pretty good insight on why people fear death / mortality and how that dynamic plays out. Yup. I have no problem with how others think, only an issue when they try to change who I am. but then, that's also something I'm working on. I don't expect it to be a static issue. I eventually got over getting irritated by Christians who thought I was "going to hell" even though I don't believe in hell. I'll get over any other condescending viewpoint anyone else has toward me as well. But one point of clarification: just because I think "nothingness" is a depressing and hopeless worldview "for me", doesn't mean I fear death/mortality. I don't believe in it. That's the same thing as assuming I fear hell. I don't. I neither believe in hell nor morality. Sure, my physical body will some day die, but that's not "me", that's just a vehicle. IMO the vehicle is not the driver and I don't think the driver dies. Sure, I could be wrong, but theoretically I could be wrong about hell. I'm not prepared to make any empirical reality statements. Only what I personally feel is true or untrue. I guess one could call that "denial", but then a Christian will call it denial that I don't believe in hell, too. We can never just "state" what does and doesn't exist if we don't know. Christians believe in Hell. You disbelieve in an afterlife. I disbelieve in hell and "death". Or maybe it's more proper to say I "lack belief" in both concepts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Sure, my physical body will some day die, but that's not "me", that's just a vehicle. IMO the vehicle is not the driver and I don't think the driver dies. Sure, I could be wrong, but theoretically I could be wrong about hell. I'm not prepared to make any empirical reality statements. Only what I personally feel is true or untrue. While we're at it, since neither of us knows what lies the other side of death, we should not assume that what could lie there is a limited list of things: Oblivion Heaven Hell More of the same It could also be: Whatever your conscious mind constructs Whatever your subconscious mind constructs A universe with some arbitrary ruleset A dreamlike state Something built by stronger minds to enslave weaker minds Something built by minds that went before you Whoville You get the idea. You want something to look forward to, but how do you know what it is you're anticipating? If this life is generally nothing like what anyone expects, why would any other life be predictable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badpuppy Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bob, I really can't explain it to you but I feel very strongly that I've been here before and that I've been "there" before. That might be "woo" to you, but it's the only way I can describe it. So in reality there are some things I just don't think happen after this life. I say "I could be wrong" merely to not be an arrogant douche about it, not because I don't really feel that I have some inner knowing. But when speaking to someone with a different worldview/frame of reference, I want to try to be respectful and not act like a know-it-all. But inside, I know. I don't know EXACTLY what I know, but... like I said, I think I've been on this ride before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertBob Posted January 11, 2012 Share Posted January 11, 2012 Bob, I really can't explain it to you but I feel very strongly that I've been here before and that I've been "there" before.. Reincarnation, eh? OK. I have always felt ancient. Does that qualify? No deja vu though. I used to find reincarnation an upsetting concept. Although it still has zero appeal to me, it no longer upsets me. Like all this other stuff, it's either true or it's not and it will damn well be what it insists on being, so ... I'll find out soon enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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