God and free will

[Guest Thegoodbook]

I get this e-mail and I know it from someone here on this forum.

 

 

God gave humans freewill to enable them to experience love and happiness

But the humans used this freewill to choose evil, and introduced imperfection into God's originally perfect universe. God had no control over this decision, so the blame for our imperfect universe is on the humans, not God.

 

Here is why the argument is weak. First, if God is omnipotent, then the assumption that freewill is necessary for happiness is false. If God could make it a rule that only beings with freewill may experience happiness, then he could just as easily have made it a rule that only robots may experience happiness. The latter option is clearly superior, since perfect robots will never make decisions which could render them or their creator unhappy, whereas beings with freewill could. A perfect and omnipotent God who creates beings capable of ruining their own happiness is impossible.

 

 

Second, even if we were to allow the necessity of freewill for happiness, God could have created humans with freewill who did not have the ability to choose evil, but to choose between several good options.

 

Third, God supposedly has freewill, and yet he does not make imperfect decisions. If humans are miniature images of God, our decisions should likewise be perfect. Also, the occupants of heaven, who presumably must have freewill to be happy, will never use that freewill to make imperfect decisions. Why would the originally perfect humans do differently?

 

 

The point remains: the presence of imperfections in the universe disproves the supposed perfection of its creator.

 

Let us suppose that this perfect God did create the universe. Humans were the crown of his creation, since they were created in God's image and have the ability to make decisions. However, these humans spoiled the original perfection by choosing to disobey God.

 

 

What!? If something is perfect, nothing imperfect can come from it. Someone once said that bad fruit cannot come from a good tree, and yet this "perfect" God created a "perfect" universe which was rendered imperfect by the "perfect" humans. The ultimate source of imperfection is God. What is perfect cannot become imperfect, so humans must have been created imperfect. What is perfect cannot create anything imperfect, so God must be imperfect to have created these imperfect humans. A perfect God who creates imperfect humans is impossible.

 

Wow.

 

Let me get this straight.

 

1. God created humans

2. Humans are not perfect

3. God is not perfect

4. There is no God

 

Well this is an interesting theory with a lot of logical holes in it.

 

First off God did create humans, but there was a plan that included Christ redeeming those same humans. The Bible calls Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That phrase only makes sense if God (this may also merit a discussion of God and time) had reasoned before he made the world, to have something for people to be redeemed from namely sin. Which means that God determined that man would fall and become in need of a Savior. When Adam fell, the whole creation was put under the curse of sin accounting for your "imperfections" in the universe.

 

Adam had a free will in that he was able to do what he desired. He did not screw up God's plan of free beings being good everywhere. God planned to exhibit his goodness to something that did not deserve it (us). He showed us how complete his goodness was, first in creating us, second in providing us with reason, and third with redeeming his own through his son, Christ Jesus.

 

God's plan was not necessarily to create perfection in the sense you are using it, meaning free from sin.

[Eponymic]

Oh, okay.  So god created humans, humans screwed up (god knowing that adam and eve would screw up).  Now, he allows what, something like 1000 years of screwing up to continue, repents of creating man, floods the earth'; drowning infants, children, people in general (god knowing that man would screw up again).  Now, he allows another four thousand plus years  of vile behavior and screwing up, until the "supposed" time of Christ.  Christ is supposed to come and bring clarity and peace, but doesn't, he sacrifices himself for gods plan and here we 2000 plus years later just as screwed up as day 6.... and this is logical????  This is the almighty "perfect" creators plan?  To allow thousands of years of screwing up?   What a JOKE!!  Good Grief!!

 

Exactly what I was thinking when I saw this.

 

Great. So if we ascribe to this belief, we're nothing more than God's little violent video game that he plays around with for shits & giggles.

[crazy-tiger]

Wow.

 

Let me get this straight.

 

1. God created humans

2. Humans are not perfect

3. God is not perfect

4. There is no God

 

Well this is an interesting theory with a lot of logical holes in it.

This should be fun... especially since the theory is that something perfect cannot become imperfect by itself. Since there had to be something to cause this imperfection and since the only source was God, god would have to be imperfect.

 

Why's that a problem? Because the Christian God is Perfect... Logically, that God cannot exist AND do that which it is claimed to have done.

First off God did create humans, but there was a plan that included Christ redeeming those same humans. The Bible calls Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That phrase only makes sense if God (this may also merit a discussion of God and time) had reasoned before he made the world, to have something for people to be redeemed from namely sin. Which means that God determined that man would fall and become in need of a Savior. When Adam fell, the whole creation was put under the curse of sin accounting for your "imperfections" in the universe.

So when God created everything, he did so in the full knowledge that part of what he was creating was imperfect and that imperfection was going to contaminate the rest of it...

 

Did God create this imperfection by choice or by accident? If by choice, then God is to blame for the imperfection and should be punished for it. (the curse of sin...) Thus, the only one needing a saviour, the only one needing to be released from the curse of sin, is God.

If by accident, then God is IMPERFECT, since a perfect being would be incapable of making a mistake. (which is what creating something by accident would be)

 

That's quite a problem there, isn't it? Either God is not the God of the Bible, or, God is not the God of the Bible...

Adam had a free will in that he was able to do what he desired. He did not screw up God's plan of free beings being good everywhere. God planned to exhibit his goodness to something that did not deserve it (us). He showed us how complete his goodness was, first in creating us, second in providing us with reason, and third with redeeming his own through his son, Christ Jesus.

So God created us to screw up just so he could 1) have a go at us for screwing up, 2) lord over us and tell us how bad we all are for doing what he created us for, and 3) blame us and claim we have free will when God knowing that we were going to screw up proves that we had no such thing.

 

That's one very nasty God you believe in... really gives a new meaning to the word "goodness"

God's plan was not necessarily to create perfection in the sense you are using it, meaning free from sin.

105020[/snapback]

So God's plan was to include sin??

 

[BuddhistCommunist]

To TGB:

Look dude, not everyone here is an Atheist. Those of us that aren't are very excepted in this largely Atheist Community. Why? Because we are all Exchristians here and we all have a reason why we left. Also we don't go around preaching our ideas to everyone who doesn't believe what we do. Those that want to convert others are either trying to release them from an unhappy lifestyle (and as a Buddhist, I only do this if another asks it of me);or in the majority of Christians cases, they are subconsciencely insecure about their own beliefs so they want others to back them up. Whenever a christian is in a bad mood and questioning God, He has many others in a good mood right there helping him keep his faith. And this is a viscious cycle that involves the well structured manipulating structure of the average Christian church. You people should be looking for higher enlightenment which everyone in the Exchristian community does in their own right. I think you need to free yourself dude. Now I could give you infinite reasons to leave christianity and convert to Buddhism, Atheism, Paganism and infinte other possibilities that would make you a happier person. We're not going to christian sites to convert you, but you christians come here to convert us. That obviously proves my former statement of your "conversion" practices.

good day,

BC

[pandora]

Whomever emailed that essay, which I think explains the problem fairly well, forgot to mention that God not only knew we would screw up, but that God created the possibility to screw up. If the snake/Satan didn't tempt Eve (and didn't exist), I could almost understand that it was our choice to screw up. But it wasn't that way, according to the Bible. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve...and thus the decision to disobey was not entirely hers. The snake told her the truth about knowledge of good and evil and she wanted it. God did not tell her the truth about good and evil.

 

Some believe that we have to know evil to know good. I can accept that. But why is this world SO evil? Why can't it just be a little evil? I am sure this all powerful God could have created a world where we were fully aware (through dreams or visions) how evil things could get, but why allow all that to happen to his creation?

 

I assume you are a smart guy and are aware of these philosophical problems, so I won't drone on...

 

Regardless, the whole Christian version of humanity's history makes no sense and is not consistent with the Christian view of God. I am pretty darn sure the Christian God doesn't exist as it is reported in the Bible. I am open to a god existing, but not one that is allknowing, allpowerful, and allgood. That is logically impossible... unless you are willing to redefine those terms and not anthropormorphize God's perfection, knowledge, and power. But Christians aren't willing to let go of their view that God is those things... and Christian doctrine itself seems equally unwilling to see these contradictions.

[Guest JPD]

As long as we're discussing God and freewill, it's should at least be mentioned that the christian God can't exist in a universe with freewill. If we accept that god is omnipotent, ubiquitous, omniscient, then He knows everything, including what choices we will make. If our choices are foreknown, then they are predetermined. Of course, if my actions are predetermined, then i don't really have freewill. I have no choice but to do what was foreknown by God. This isn't freewill, but the illusion of freewill. I'm sure that this has been mentioned on this board beofre, but I thought that this was the perfect topic in which to bring it up again.

[Vigile]

Well this is an interesting theory with a lot of logical holes in it.

105020[/snapback]

 

Sure glad you cleared up all those logical flaws and used your god-given reason to put forth a logically pure argument we could all embrace.

[All Gods Fail]

This isn't freewill, but the illusion of freewill. I'm sure that this has been mentioned on this board beofre, but I thought that this was the perfect topic in which to bring it up again.

105225[/snapback]

 

And it applies to god, too! If god is omniscient, then he knows everything he will do before he does it. He's helpless to change his mind, which makes him morally irrelevant.

[MQTA]

 

Wow.

 

Let me get this straight.

 

1. God created humans

2. Humans are not perfect

3. God is not perfect

4. There is no God

 

Well this is an interesting theory with a lot of logical holes in it.

 

First off God did create humans, but there was a plan that included Christ redeeming those same humans. The Bible calls Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That phrase only makes sense if God (this may also merit a discussion of God and time) had reasoned before he made the world, to have something for people to be redeemed from namely sin. Which means that God determined that man would fall and become in need of a Savior. When Adam fell, the whole creation was put under the curse of sin accounting for your "imperfections" in the universe.

 

Adam had a free will in that he was able to do what he desired. He did not screw up God's plan of free beings being good everywhere. God planned to exhibit his goodness to something that did not deserve it (us). He showed us how complete his goodness was, first in creating us, second in providing us with reason, and third with redeeming his own through his son, Christ Jesus.

 

God's plan was not necessarily to create perfection in the sense you are using it, meaning free from sin.

105020[/snapback]

 

Here's another letter:

 

We applaud your honest efforts in trying to describe the beginnings of earth and its becoming habitable for man. Overall you are wrong, but you are right as far as you have knowledge about the facts of these things. Lucifer and I are a team assigned to earth. We have just finished a discussion concerning how much we should tell you and what we should do, if anything, about your efforts. Knowing it would be useless to deliver you a vision, dream or personal appearance, Lucifer decided I should write you this electronic letter to give you some of the particulars. Even though we enjoy working with embryonic intelligence (mankind), and it has brought us much joviality, we have become jaded, disappointed and incensed over the lack of success with our efforts.

 

First, if you will search that book of gossip, which you call the Holy Bible, you will find over and over where Lucifer and I play what you call the good cop and the bad cop. Sometimes we did it for a joke, and sometimes seriously. But always we did it to make men think. The other Gods of our grade call us Lord God and Damn God. Because of the confusion of the authors of your Holy Bible, you may be surprised to know that I am actually assigned, and am supposed to be, the bad cop, (Damn God) and Lucifer is the good cop (Lord God). But, through some quirk in man's intellectual development, he has reversed the roles and nametags. He has called good, “bad” and he has called bad, “good.” Man screwed up. That is the only proper and usable English word for it. We mean, really screwed up.

 

The only part of man, which is worth spit to us, is his ever-living being and his brain or mind. So, our plan was as follows: I would make man a useable and attractive case for his brain and mind. I installed a creditable and expandable brain in his body. You would call that, “man's hard drive.” Being the bad cop, I forbid man from using this excellent brain. I came up with this concept of telling Adam some absurdities and lies and then threatened him with instant death if he didn't believe me or obey me. Normally, any intelligence would at once want to know what it was that Damn God didn't want him to know. What was so important? It wouldn't take him long to figure out that Damn God must be a liar. Why give him a brain and then forbid him to use it? So, he would check it out and find the claim, the threat and the punishment to be false. This would force man's development to take off at once. I guess I am trying to justify myself here. After I gave him his feet, I should have threatened to kill him if he walked on his feet.

 

Lucifer's job was to take what I had made and to challenge man and get his brain started thinking along the right track. Lord God was supposed to install some elemental, usable, informational software so man would have a basis on which to separate the true from the false. He was to give Adam some simple problems to solve. This would get Adam's mind functioning properly so man would soon have the information, which he needed to separate the truth from tall tales, and to develop himself and his civilization. I guess you would call that man's software and programs.

 

We had hoped man would enter the service of the Galactic Resource and Development Department at least fifty thousand years ago. It is forbidden us to write any programs and software beyond the necessary initial ones for any intelligence in the universe. They must write their own. We thought a series of short problems would be all that was necessary to start mankind on an accelerated learning program, which had worked with other intelligence. From this challenge, man would discover the information he needed in order to arrange his thinking and doing. In other words, man would begin to separate the true from the false and start to grow mentally.

 

Our plan was this. I would tell Adam some absurdities and lies. He would check it out, find it to be false and thereby develop the habit of beginning all his thinking processes by honestly doubting anything told him by an authority. I told him, "Don't you dare sit and eat any of the fruit under that tree over there, and if you do, I will kill you at once." The fruit was of a very delightful aroma and very pleasing to the eye. I thought it was the best thing in the garden, so I selected it to tempt Adam to think.

 

And what did Adam do? He walked around that tree I had damned like it didn't exist, month after month and year after year. Lucifer said, "By Damn God, this is not working." So, Lucifer went down in all of his best garments and glory and sat under the tree. Adam still walked right on by in his pious self-righteousness. So, Lucifer dressed up in rags like a beggar and sat under the tree. Adam began to even avoid walking by the tree. But Eve was more sociable and compassionate so she stopped to talk. Lucifer said he was hungry and could he please have some fruit from the tree.

 

Eve said, "Oh, no! God said anyone who ate the fruit from this tree would die at once."

 

Lucifer said. "You mean that Damn God, Jehovah? You can't trust that lying son of a demented Goddess. Here, watch me eat some of this good looking juicy fruit you said Jehovah has damned and see if I die. Did you know this tree is called the Tree of Knowledge?"

 

"Why is it called that?" Eve asked.

 

"Because, if you sit here under this tree and think and talk about things, you will learn about things. You will learn what is real and what is not, what is good and what is not good. It is like a university and when ever you sit here a while the professor comes out and talks to you."

 

"I haven't seen this professor. What does he look like? Will he come and talk to me?"

 

"Sometimes he looks like a snake, sometimes he just comes into your mind, and sometimes he looks like me."

 

Well, Lucifer slurped, grunted his delight, ate some more, smacked his lips, and said, "By Me, I see why that son of a low level retarded God didn't want you to eat this stuff. This is the best fruit in the garden. I know why Damn God, Jehovah, forbid you from eating this wonderful fruit. He didn't want to share it, or let you and Adam eat any of it. He wanted to save this tree for himself, and no doubt, for some of his close and trusted friends.

 

As you would imagine, this upset Eve because she considered herself and Adam to be My close, trusted and only friends. She never thought much about the fact that I only spent about fifteen minutes every evening with them and of course, I never showed up on weekends or holidays.

 

So, while Lucifer sat there slurping and wiping the juices from his face and lips, he began to tell Eve that knowledge and understanding of the world came from hunting the truth of things. To do this you had to honestly doubt what you were told and find out the truth for yourself. You had to experiment, and even make mistakes. Only then could you know if some authority was telling you the truth. He said truth was so important that it naturally took effort to find it. But it was worth every bit of the effort. With hard studying and hard thinking, she and Adam could become like the Gods having knowledge, which would help them separate the good from the bad, the useful from the useless and the helpful from the harmful.

 

Lucifer looked over at Eve and kind of winked. "Now, you take this fruit. Am I dead yet? Jehovah didn't say you couldn't taste it did he? He just said you couldn't eat it. You could just dip your finger in right here in this nice juicy part and lick your finger if you want to.” She did.

 

"My God, that's good! No wonder he didn't want us to eat it. What's it called?"

 

"Well, you have to name it. This is your garden you know."

 

"Let me have another taste. Yummy! There is only one other thing I like this much. I think I will call this Humping Fruit."

 

"That's a good name, but don't you think you would enjoy both more if you had separate names for them?"

 

"Let me have another taste. Whooee! That gets better every time I taste it. I think I'll call it Passion. That's it, Passion Fruit. Do you think it will be all right if I just lick the Passion Fruit itself?" And before long, Eve had a nice pile of Passion Fruit seeds on the ground in front of her while Lord God, Lucifer, explained about morality, life and living.

 

I gave Adam and Eve three years and three months with Lucifer under the tree before they began to hide from Me. I was very pleased and so was Lord God, Lucifer. The good cop, bad cop thing was finally working. They excused themselves for hiding by saying they didn't have any clothes to wear to our meetings. Eve insisted she didn't have a single thing to wear. That got started early, didn't it?

 

But, the real reason they didn't want to see me was because they knew I was lying to them. By this time, they had received about a university education from Lord God, Lucifer, and got to not even believing everything he told them. They really were on the right track and Lucifer and I were delighted. They were doing lots of experiments to check out everything Lucifer told them. They were ready to get out in the world and start developing themselves and building a civilization. I might have rushed it a bit, but I had high hopes for Adam and Eve.

 

We closed down the garden and talked to them. We told them to never trust what anybody said, or any God, or any claim, and to check everything out for themselves. I told them they had seen perfection in my garden so they knew perfection was possible. "Now," I said, "This garden is how the whole earth is supposed to be. You will never appreciate its beauty and utility if it is handed to you. You must get out there and teach your children to work toward making earth into your own paradise and garden. That way you will learn to appreciate it and care for it. After that, you will be ready to join us in the work of the universe. But you must do it yourself and don't stop until the whole earth is a beautiful and fruitful garden. If you don't do this, the earth will deteriorate before your very eyes, and you will eat only by working very hard. And the knowledge you have learned will slip away from you. You will begin to fight with one another, and kill each other, and steal from other people, and seek only your own selfish comforts and pleasures."

 

So, Thomas that is how it is. That is how it started, and only you and those like you know what went wrong. There is no place for "lazy or gullible" in this universe. But the world was too prolific, too rich, too easy to live in. There were not enough physical challenges. So all men became lazy in mind and body. The lazy of mind became slaves to the lazy of body. The lazy of body became slaves to their own bodies and sought to make life soft, comfortable and abounding in titillations and pleasures.

 

How and why man decided to become slaves to others and to himself, is no mystery. Man has it too easy and is lazy. He always wants something for nothing. He has forgotten his early lessons. Today most men are gullible and ignorant. Man's worst problem is that he is lazy of mind and is willing to believe some absurdity rather than spend the mental energy necessary to find out the TRUTH.

 

We are sick of it. Now we are going to challenge man’s mind by allowing the fruits of his wasteful and greedy life to catch up with him. There will be disasters of all types, and one way or another; Lucifer and I are going to get man's butt in gear. We are going to make man honestly doubt ALL authority. I have been sending absurd and contradictory revelations to man for thousands of years and he still hasn't learned to honestly doubt these irrational revelations, nor has he learned to think. Very few have even questioned these revelations, ridiculous as they are. However, his leaders and their lies and deceptions will soon cause all men to honestly doubt what they are being told by their political, religious and business leaders.

 

So, now you know, Thomas. Lucifer and I are going to take a vacation and let man figure it all out for himself, or die trying. We may communicate again, I don't know yet. Lots of luck! You will need it!

 

Lucifer and Jehovah

 

PS: You can forward this electronic letter to anyone whom you think might benefit by it. Again, lots of luck. Lord God, Lucifer said to honestly doubt everything you see, hear or read. I guess that includes this letter too. Of course, some things you read, ARE TRUE. If you don't hear from us, we will be back in a few hundred or so years. Good Luck!

 

L&J.

 

Lord God, Lucifer

Damn God, Jehovah

 

 

 

http://www.jovialatheist.com/lettersfromgod.html

[duderonomy]

Damn, MQTA, that was...long.

 

And very good, IMHO.

 

I do, however, have a couple of small issues...

 

I understand that you are Jehovah (because you said so in your letter), and that you work with Lucifer (we call him 'Dev'),

but will you please get explain about the Jesus thing, where He was One Third of the Holy Trinity, and yet knowing He would have to suffer before we were created, didn't say something like, "Ummm...wait a minute (or Eon, or Eternity) for Gods' sake! Why me? There's three of us! Why do I have to go? I can understand, El-Shaddai, or whatever your name is today, that you are sitting on the throne right now, but being co-equal and all, why can't the other third of us go? He was already there, after all, brooding over the face of the deep and all, even before the three of Us created the damn place!".

 

Also, you speak of man as if his brain is a computer? Sorry, being human, I have to tell you I'm a 'low-tech' kind of guy, and I couldn't therefore understand your parables! Can you recommend a pastor of some kind that can interpret it and tell me what it means?

 

The one thing I seem to understand through nature though, is that were I running around in a Garden of Eden with a virginal, naked woman as your Team Leader was, I would have tempted her to touch the snake. The fruit would take care of itself, let alone the tree.

But that's just sinful me.

[duderonomy]

Ummmm...

 

I repent. It was explained about the fruit/garden stuff.

That's what I get for sleeping in church!

 

 

[MQTA]

Damn, MQTA, that was...long.

 

And very good, IMHO.

 

I do, however, have a couple of small issues...

 

I understand that you are Jehovah (because you said so in your letter), and that you work with Lucifer (we call him 'Dev'),

but will you please get explain about the Jesus thing, where He was One Third of the Holy Trinity, and yet knowing He would have to suffer before we were created, didn't say something like, "Ummm...wait a minute (or Eon, or Eternity) for Gods' sake! Why me? There's three of us! Why do I have to go? I can understand, El-Shaddai, or whatever your name is today, that you are sitting on the throne right now, but being co-equal and all, why can't the other third of us go? He was already there, after all, brooding over the face of the deep and all, even before the three of Us created the damn place!".

105569[/snapback]

 

I think you may have missed something there. Look at the final sentence, and then the P.S.

 

1 view would be, they LEFT, they're on vacation. They take no credit or responsibility for what may or may not have happened 1980 years ago and how a really bad game of telephone happened over a few hundred years. They were bored, they had no tv's, computers, or even running water and bathrooms.

 

another view would be, if you recall, the tower of babel, the last time we had peace on earth. we all worked together, we all got along, we even wanted to honor God by building a nice tower. They (definitely more than one up there) came down and confounded our language and scattered us all over the globe. So obviously we were all starting to come together again, so something had to be done, to confound our languages, and so the result after another 2000 years is over 34,000 different denominations of that ONE event, and all the other hundreds or thousands of religions out there.

 

If we ever attain world peace, who knows what'll happen then!

 

[Guest Jesus H. Christ]

Look man, the Bible, Tanakh and even the Qu'ran are all meant to be taken like Aesops fables. I never anticipated some of you would take these things seriously as fact. I mean come on, you are no longer wondering what causes thunder or earthquakes. It is time to grow up and accept reality. How many Carl Sagans and Richard Dawkins do I have to send for you to realize science explains things realistically?

 

Your pal,

 

Jesus

[Guest Jesus H. Christ]

by the way, stop bothering me on a holiday...even I need time off

[MQTA]

well, I guess that settles that

[Mr. Neil]

Hey JC!

 

What does the "H" stand for?

[Guest Guest]

There was a 'Holy Spirit' member posting not long ago.

 

If they are the same person (Trinity!), then 'H' stands for Holy Spirit?

[The Holy Ghost]

There was a 'Holy Spirit' member posting not long ago.

 

If they are the same person (Trinity!), then 'H' stands for Holy Spirit?

I am The Holy Ghost. Jesus H. Christ and I are not the same person, and yet, we are one.

[Eponymic]

There was a 'Holy Spirit' member posting not long ago.

 

If they are the same person (Trinity!), then 'H' stands for Holy Spirit?

I am The Holy Ghost. Jesus H. Christ and I are not the same person, and yet, we are one.

105728[/snapback]

 

So you're Jesus' siamese twin then.

 

No wait you're triplets. Keep forgetting that the father is part of your trinny party too.

[Eponymic]

If they are the same person (Trinity!), then 'H' stands for Holy Spirit?

105719[/snapback]

 

Hubert.

[The Holy Ghost]

So you're Jesus' siamese twin then.

Not quite. You see, I am in Him, He is in Me, The Father is in Him and Me, while both of us are within and without The Father, and at the same time that we indwell each other, we indwell all of humanity at the same time, all the while being beyond time itself.

 

So you see, it's a little more complicated than just Us being a couple of twins or "trinny's".

[Eponymic]

So you're Jesus' siamese twin then.

Not quite. You see, I am in Him, He is in Me, The Father is in Him and Me, while both of us are within and without The Father, and at the same time that we indwell each other, we indwell all of humanity at the same time, all the while being beyond time itself.

 

So you see, it's a little more complicated than just Us being a couple of twins or "trinny's".

105736[/snapback]

 

Great. You're living out a twisted version of "Vice Versa" or "Freaky Friday"

[The Holy Ghost]

So you're Jesus' siamese twin then.

Not quite. You see, I am in Him, He is in Me, The Father is in Him and Me, while both of us are within and without The Father, and at the same time that we indwell each other, we indwell all of humanity at the same time, all the while being beyond time itself.

 

So you see, it's a little more complicated than just Us being a couple of twins or "trinny's".

105736[/snapback]

 

Great. You're living out a twisted version of "Vice Versa" or "Freaky Friday"

It's more like, "Freaky Versa" or "Vice Friday". You know, "Vice Friday" has sort of a nice ring to it. It reminds me of a time when Miami Vice used to come on on Friday evenings. Not that I have to be reminded about anything, mind you.

[Guest Thegoodbook]

Crazytiger

Oh, okay. So god created humans, humans screwed up (god knowing that adam and eve would screw up).

 

Humans sinned. God knew they would.

 

 

Now, he allows what, something like 1000 years of screwing up to continue, repents of creating man, floods the earth'; drowning infants, children, people in general (god knowing that man would screw up again). Now, he allows another four thousand plus years of vile behavior and screwing up, until the "supposed" time of Christ. Christ is supposed to come and bring clarity and peace, but doesn't, he sacrifices himself for gods plan and here we 2000 plus years later just as screwed up as day 6.... and this is logical???? This is the almighty "perfect" creators plan? To allow thousands of years of screwing up? What a JOKE!! Good Grief!!

 

 

There is nothing but assertions here

 

The theory is that something perfect cannot become imperfect by itself.

 

Okay. This must be proven.

 

1. I am perfect, therefore I cannot become imperfect

 

Does it then follow that Adam was perfect, therefore he could not become imperfect?

 

The premise that Adam was perfect must be clarified. How was Adam "perfect"? The Bible leads us to believe that he was innocent until the eating of the fruit, but it does not imply that he was perfect in the sense that your proof demands. It does not imply that Adam was given perfect knowledge and rather implies that the knowledge of good and evil was deliberately withheld from him so that when he ate, his eyes were opened.

 

Since there had to be something to cause this imperfection and since the only source was God, god would have to be imperfect.

 

Your proof fails with it's second premise, but let us see if this premise follows.

 

Since God is perfect he cannot create flawed things.

 

I am not sure how it follows that God is bound to create anything better than he intends to create it. If he intends to withhold something from someone or something leading to it's imperfection then it must be shown that his own perfection is impeded

 

Why's that a problem? Because the Christian God is Perfect... Logically, that God cannot exist AND do that which it is claimed to have done.

 

Logically, your proof fails on it's premise and conclusion

 

First off God did create humans, but there was a plan that included Christ redeeming those same humans. The Bible calls Christ, the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. That phrase only makes sense if God (this may also merit a discussion of God and time) had reasoned before he made the world, to have something for people to be redeemed from namely sin. Which means that God determined that man would fall and become in need of a Savior. When Adam fell, the whole creation was put under the curse of sin accounting for your "imperfections" in the universe.

 

So when God created everything, he did so in the full knowledge that part of what he was creating was imperfect and that imperfection was going to contaminate the rest of it...

 

Did God create this imperfection by choice or by accident? If by choice, then God is to blame for the imperfection and should be punished for it.

 

This is silly. If I own a dollar and out of the goodness of my heart give you 20 cents, do you have a right to demand more? If I have a child and I suspect treachery, I test the child and he fails, how am I guilty for the child's action? God is not the author of sin.

 

(the curse of sin...) Thus, the only one needing a saviour, the only one needing to be released from the curse of sin, is God.

 

This would naturally follow your earlier flawed premise.

 

If by accident, then God is IMPERFECT, since a perfect being would be incapable of making a mistake. (which is what creating something by accident would be)

 

God does nothing by accident.

 

That's quite a problem there, isn't it? Either God is not the God of the Bible, or, God is not the God of the Bible...

 

Or you are arrogantly wrong.

 

Adam had a free will in that he was able to do what he desired. He did not screw up God's plan of free beings being good everywhere. God planned to exhibit his goodness to something that did not deserve it (us). He showed us how complete his goodness was, first in creating us, second in providing us with reason, and third with redeeming his own through his son, Christ Jesus.

 

So God created us to screw up just so he could 1) have a go at us for screwing up,

 

Where did I state this? Show it.

 

2) lord over us and tell us how bad we all are for doing what he created us for, and

 

Where did I state this? Show it.

 

3) blame us and claim we have free will when God knowing that we were going to screw up proves that we had no such thing.

 

Well, since you have shown no basis to define what is good and bad, I have to say that your opinion on the subject is fairly worthless.

 

God's plan was not necessarily to create perfection in the sense you are using it, meaning free from sin. So God's plan was to include sin

 

And if it was?

 

If I am God and I talk to the trinity and I say something to the effect of, let us create a man in our own image. I know all of the effects that such a thing will cause. I know that if I give the man reason, he will rebel against me and I will have to curse him because of my holiness. I know that, in order to redeem man, I will have to send my son to die on the cross to redeem man. I know that man will commit atrocities and that I will have to mete out justice. I deem that overall, it is good to create man in my own image and I give him reason and then...

 

I see no inconsistency here.

[Guest Guest]

I see no inconsistency here.

105788[/snapback]

 

Of course not, we expect you wouldn't. Logic and reason fold when it comes to faith, pure and simple. We see the truth, you refuse to see it, no surpises here.