Should we try to destroy people's faith?

[Guest Jedweber]

I wrote this after reading one of the testimonies on the main site (by "Craig"), but I thought I'd post my question to the forum. It seems like an awesome responsibility to influence decisions that may affect a person's life so deeply. I'm not sure it's something to do casually to a stranger through a message board.

 

In general, I just don't know if it's right to go on an active 'mission' to undermine or destroy other people's faith. I certainly have nothing to offer that can take its place. Some people may need a set of comforting beliefs to 'plug in' to, and can't simply be told to follow 'common sense' or be left to work out their own secular philosophy for life. Christianity may be partly or even entirely based on myths, but there are worse philosophies out there. Look at all the skeptics of traditional Christianity who fall for various "New Age"-type beliefs, or nonsense like astrology, or cults like Scientology.

 

And there are real differences among the varieties of Christianity out there. At least the mainstream churches give people a community to belong to and instill a basic moral code that benefits all of society. I can't help worrying that our attacks weaken the 'benign' churches and not the extreme and destructive ones.

 

I can understand an argument that any effort to expose falsehoods and combat fallacies is worthwhile. But is it always responsible? Agnostics/athiests don't have a set of 'truths' to replace religion with. If we could utterly discredit Christianity overnight, should we? What would happen to society? I'm not sure I trust enough in human nature to believe the outcome would be good.

[Asimov]

I wrote this after reading one of the testimonies on the main site (by "Craig"), but I thought I'd post my question to the forum. It seems like an awesome responsibility to influence decisions that may affect a person's life so deeply. I'm not sure it's something to do casually to a stranger through a message board.

 

So you live by the "rather be happy than right", "ignorance is bliss", "what you don't know wont hurt you" type of philosophy?

 

There is no way we can actually influence someones beliefs...they have to want to be influenced in order to change.

[Reality Amplifier]

It seems like an awesome responsibility to influence decisions that may affect a person's life so deeply.

 

In general, I just don't know if it's right to go on an active 'mission' to undermine or destroy other people's faith.

106638[/snapback]

 

Religious faith is unjustifiable belief about matters of ultimate concern, that we as a culture typically tell people they do not need justify in the present. A faith-driven worldview does not make sense, as evidence is the only thing that suggests a belief is really about the world around us in the first place. Tell a devout Christian that his wife or girlfriend is cheating on him, and he is likely to require as much evidence as the next person. Tell him that the bible was written by an invisible deity who will punish him with fire for eternity if he fails to accept its incredible claims, and he seems to require no evidence whatsoever. This doesn't make sense --- one's credulity should scale with the evidence. The doctrine of faith denies this though, and ignores the very salient fact that when we have valid and supportable reasons for what we believe, we have no need for faith.

 

Your questions suggests why is it wrong to believe a proposition to be true just because it might feel good to believe it? The fact that I might feel good if there were a God does not give me the slightest reason to believe one exists. The fact that religious beliefs have a great influence on human lives says nothing about their veracity, and while they may have a consoling influence, that is still no argument in their favor. When you consider that our world is on the verge of succumbing to the faith-driven activities of people who blindly stake the future of mankind on beliefs that not should not survive an elementary school education, I’d say there’s no question if it’s worthwhile to test and contest people's faith-based claims and beliefs.

 

Try this the next time you read the news to get an idea oh how faith-driven irrationality affects you today. The next time you see the word “God” cited in the news, substitute the name of your favorite Olympian Zeus instead.

 

Example: "In God We Trust" Posters Going Up In Glynn County Schools

 

'In Zeus We Trust' Posters Going Up In Glynn County Schools Fri Nov 11, 3:42 PM ET

 

Over the next few months, posters reading "In Zeus We Trust" will appear in every Glynn County school classroom.

 

Although the school board knows the posters have potential to stir up controversy, it feels they are legal under state law because no tax dollars are being used.

 

The posters are the idea of Brunswick's First Zeus Church, which is paying for the printing and framing. Boy Scouts will distribute and hang the posters -- expected to be in every school by next year.

 

"'In Zeus We Trust' is the national motto -- it's on every single dollar bill," said Debbie Brown of First Zeus Church. "It's just important that our students understand, one, where our foundations are based, and, two, it's connection to our country."

 

The county's school superintendent expects there to be a challenge, but has heard no opposition yet.

 

"I'm going to choose real carefully the things I take a serious stand on," Glynn County Superintendent Michael Bull said. "In this case, I'm simply directed by the board to move forward on this, and that's what I'm going to do."

 

Parents whom Channel 4's Adam Landau spoke with Wednesday night were split on the issue, with some supporting the idea and others thinking the posters were not appropriate in public schools.

 

"As a Zeusian, I think it's a great idea. But in the situation where you have to separate church and state, it's not a good idea," parent Allison Purcer said.

Now, ask yourself if people should really be free to believe propositions for which there is no evidence?

 

The practice of organizing ones life around untestable propositions found in ancient literature is not justifiable, nor reasonable. Believing strongly without confirming evidence kicks people loose from reality, making faith an effective impediment to serious inquiry into the world around us.

 

Stepping back from pointing out the absurdities intrinsic to religious faith represents a failure to contest the unreasonable (and often dangerous) certitude of others. As one believes, so will they act. Look at the untestable beliefs of the 9/11 hijackers, and you’ll see the dangers in letting such faith-driven worldviews continuing uncontested...

[Vixentrox]

If some Xtian comes here, they are begging for thier faith to be shaken. Plain and simple. Only the densest of folk cant walk away from here without at least a small crack being put in the foundation of thier belief in the invisible sky daddy.

 

As to preaching the good news that there is no god outside of here? Heh...that's a risky battle. You risk loosing your familiy, friends and job by rejecting the Christian god...or Muslim god if you live in a place where Allah is the faith of choice.

 

We don't need to utterly discredit Christians over night. They do a fine job at themselves to anyone not in the cult. Problem is, at least in the US, most people nominally belong to the christ cult.

[Poonis]

In general, I just don't know if it's right to go on an active 'mission' to undermine or destroy other people's faith. I certainly have nothing to offer that can take its place.

106638[/snapback]

 

Faith in something that does not exist is faith in nothing. To "destroy" someone's faith is not destruction, as nothing is destroyed; but rather, realization is injected into their psyche. Being bluntly forced to recognize reality can be the scariest experience for someone, expecially someone deeply steeped in religious faith.

 

I went through this realization, and I hated and feared it. But, I am glad I did. The unwarranted assumption here is that a christian's faith must be replaced with something else. Without replacing their faith with another belief-system, they are forced to confront themselves and the reality that exists around them; they become aware and autonomous.

 

Beliefs are the most filthy and disgusting things: they blind a person and prevent them from living their life.

[Checkmate]

I wrote this after reading one of the testimonies on the main site (by "Craig"), but I thought I'd post my question to the forum. It seems like an awesome responsibility to influence decisions that may affect a person's life so deeply. I'm not sure it's something to do casually to a stranger through a message board.

 

In general, I just don't know if it's right to go on an active 'mission' to undermine or destroy other people's faith.

..........snipped................

106638[/snapback]

I must confess that I did not read the remainder of your post, because everything you say will inevitably fall apart based upon the wrong assumptions you've begun with here.

 

Taken in reverse order - This site and the members thereon are NOT on any "active mission" to "destroy" anyone's faith. (I'll come back to that odious word "destroy" in a moment.) This web site exists for people to commiserate, heal, discuss and discover their unbelief. It is a combination hospital and library and coffee house for like-minded unbelievers. We don't "evangelize". We don't go looking for people to "destroy" their faith. People enter here with their "faith" already gone or in tatters, and they are looking for help. Back in their "faith based world", there was no help for them. Only animosity and brain washing. THIS web site is a safe haven. I personally am offended by your ignorant assumption and characterization that we have some "active mission". We have no churches, we have no satellite broadcasts, we have no influence whatsoever in what people believe. How dare you accuse us of "doing" anything "to" anyone?

 

As to your piss poor choice of the word "destroy"? That is a disgusting shibboleth utilized to inflame and undermine the truth of what is occurring. What this site provides is comfort and information. How is TRUTH destructive? If what we say here leads someone into discovery of the Truth™, how have we "destroyed" anything? And as I said earlier, people come here with their "faith" already in shambles or non-existant. We aren't "destroying" anything.

 

As for your notion of an "awesome responsibility"? I suppose that goes hand in glove with your false notion of believing that we have set ourselves up as "destoyers of people's faith." Our "mission". Bullshit. The only "responsibility" we take upon ourselves here, is to speak the Truth™ as best we know it. We leave it up to the individual to read, think and make up his/her mind. There is nothing "awesome" about it. It is what occurs in everyday life. We are the sum total of all of our experiences. THIS web site just happens to be one of those experiences, that people CHOOSE to partake in. NO ONE has been forced to enter into this place.

 

In closing, I agree with SerenityNow. I'm not sure I appreciate the tone of your message. You've apparently judged us in absentia and decided that we're "evil" people for daring to live and speak our minds. It is not WE who are into mind control and brain washing. We leave THAT to the church. And if pointing this out makes us "destructive"? Then so be it!

[Vigile]

If you can show me some evidence that reveals that having faith - essentially belief without proof or reason - can somehow be a more positive factor than a life led by reason not only in the life of its beholder, but more importantly, to society in general, then I will sit down and listen. Until then, let the games begin. Faith should be dealt with with the mercy that Stalin offered the Kulaks.

[Guest Jedweber]

I want to apologize because I had no intention of criticizing the site, or anyone here in particular. I just found it, I think it's wonderful, and I've been doing more reading here. My original post was probably done too hastily. I should have been more clear. I wrote it because the testimony made me realize how serious "deconversion" can be. (The guy faces social isolation and may even lose his wife!). I wasn't trying to 'blame' anyone for the situation, and I wasn't thinking about this site when I referred to 'destroying' people's faith.

 

I DON'T advocate hiding one's (lack of) beliefs, shying away from a confrontation, or being less than honest. Certainly any Christian who's here asking questions is 'fair game,' so is anyone who's out there asking for an explanation or an argument, making judgements about others, spreading misinformation, or proselytizing, etc.

 

MY DOUBTS ARE ABOUT HOW 'PROACTIVE' WE SHOULD BE. Sometimes I've felt compelled to raise the subject first, with people who weren't really bothering anyone and weren't necessarily looking to have their faith questioned. (I'm not just talking about online discussions, but people I know in 'real life.') When does it become right for me to try to undermine someone's cherished beliefs, just because I deem them to be illusions? Should I hold myself back to avoid upsetting someone who didn't ask to be upset? Shouldn't I worry about the possible ramifications, when they can be so serious? That's what I was wondering.

[bob]

I deconverted a little over 5 years ago. My girlfriend, of 9 months, is a Christian. She knows I am an atheist. I would love for her to question me on my former faith and why I left. She doesn't. So, I never bring it up. I go to church with her every Sunday. I am incredibly uncomfortable there. I go for the simple reason that I am smitten with her, and want to be with her at every opportunity. I sit there and listen to them sings songs to and about this make-believe character. I watch as this woman I love, raises her hands and worships Jesus, a man she has never met, never talked to, only read about in a 2,000 year old book. She worships him, yet he has done nothing for her. I buy her groceries, put gas in her car, go feed her dogs when she can't get home in time, mow her lawn, and in general, show her all the love and affection a human being can. I would die to protect her from harm, and I am fairly confident that, if I did die for her, that would be it, game over. Yet she worships this Jesus fellow, who has done nothing for her. She worships him because of the writings in an old book...

 

...but, the last thing I want to do is destroy her faith. I would love for her to arrive at the same conclusion I did, but I am not about to attempt to take her there. I know full well that it would only end in anger on her part and frustration on mine.

So, I continue to sit in church every Sunday, feeling so out of place, listening to song and sermon, after song and sermon, and wondering how long I can do this.

Is this a mistake? I think it is, but I can't help myself. Her faith brings her joy and contentment (she lost her husband and father within six months). My former faith brought me sadness, discouragement, and guilt.

What can I do?

[Checkmate]

I want to apologize because I had no intention of criticizing the site, or anyone here in particular. I just found it, I think it's wonderful, and I've been doing more reading here. My original post was probably done too hastily. I should have been more clear.

106802[/snapback]

Apology accepted, Jedweber. I also apologize for my outburst. I kind of figured that you weren't expressing yourself accurately, but still, I couldn't resist my kneejerk response. We get assaulted by Christians, from time to time, who seek to muzzle us using the same rationale you voiced. And I felt compelled to launch a "counterattack", as it were. So I'm sorry for the mix up.

 

But as to the rest of your query...

 

SHOULD WE BE PROACTIVE?

 

That all depends on what you mean by "proactive" and what are the circumstances.

 

Many factors such as integrity, honesty, SAFETY, kindness, pointlessness and so on, enter into the decision to share non-belief. As an individual you're going to have to assess the situation and play it by ear. Bottom line: if NO GOOD can come from full and open disclosure, then I wouldn't bother.

 

I don't go out of my way to "broadcast" my atheism, but neither will I shy away from it, IF the subject comes up and it is unavoidable. I let the chips fall where they may. My motto is, "Don't ask me any questions if there is a possibility that the answer is going to hurt your feelings." If people are THAT fragile, then they'd better remain in the dark.

 

That being said, IF "no good" DOES occur, then the fault lies with the religion and its adherents, not with WE who don't believe.

 

It is the Christian who is making a big deal out of his/her fairy tale beliefs. They are the ones who believe the "sky is falling" and the "devil is going to devour" someone for not believing. They are the ones who irrationally cannot tolerate a difference of opinion/beliefs. It is the Christian who chooses to ruin a relationship, just because a friend, spouse or child does not believe a lie.

 

If disaster strikes because the "truth came out", then who is TRULY to blame?

 

In other words, "don't shoot the messenger"!

 

If a relationship is ruined because of someone's non-belief, then you never had a healthy relationship to begin with. You can't blame the non-belief. That is just the issue that exposed the cracks in the foundation.

 

Hope this helps.

[qadeshet]

I don't seek to destroy anyone's beliefs, but I do plant seeds of doubt. If someone knocks on my door at 8:00 am on a Saturday morning I will destroy their arguments with great relish. Ultimately, each individual makes his own decisions.

[Amethyst]

It's ultimately up to them whether they want to believe in it. No single person can "destroy" another person's faith, as you call it. They don't have to come here. They can surf Christian web sites and be happy. Nobody's twisting their arms and forcing them to come here.

 

I don't talk about religion with people who don't bring it up. If someone brings it up I'll say, I'm not religious. If they ask, I'll tell them why. If they want to debate with me, fine, but I'll debate vigorously because I have strong opinions. If they start throwing out Bible verses, as most Christians do, that's a good sign that they aren't ready to start offering their own opinions or thinking for themselves yet. If they start trying to use logic, however convoluted it may be, that's a sign that they might be ready to consider other people's opinions.

 

I will, however, refuse to debate or discuss religion beyond the point of "I'm not religious" in a work setting. I've learned my lesson with that.

 

It also depends on who it is. If it's my grandmother, no. If it's a friend, I'll debate them to a point, but I might have to say we should agree to disagree if things start getting hairy. On the Internet, no holds are barred, since people come here because they want to debate. If they don't like it, they can leave the web site and delete it from their history file and forget about it.

 

Does that make sense?

[FirstInTheDance]

This is a tough question. It is tempting - and certainly easier to rationalize that if an individual isn't hurting anyone there is no harm in letting them believe whatever they like. After all, nothing we can say will change their minds, and will only cause grief. I am guilty of this. Like many, I tend to avoid conflict with family and friends because I have no wish to hurt their feelings, or endanger my relationships with them - and this is natural.

 

The problem arises when we look at the bigger picture. The beliefs of one person aren't all that significant. . .but the beliefs of the majority affect society, and it scares me that the deluded masses are in political control. When people are making laws based on the prejudices of bronze age desert dwellers, and are pushing to teach mythology as science, I think it is important that we try to get people thinking and questioning. I know we can't MAKE anyone deconvert, but the more visible we are, the more we point out the inconsistencies, errors, and horrors in that "divine" book of theirs, the better the chances that some will stop and say, "whoa...wtf?" and eventually come to their senses.

[Kryten]

This is a tough question.  It is tempting - and certainly easier to rationalize that if an individual isn't hurting anyone there is no harm in letting them believe whatever they like.  After all, nothing we can say will change their minds, and will only cause grief.  I am guilty of this.  Like many, I tend to avoid conflict with family and friends because I have no wish to hurt their feelings, or endanger my relationships with them - and this is natural.

 

The problem arises when we look at the bigger picture.  The beliefs of one person aren't all that significant. . .but the beliefs of the majority affect society, and it scares me that the deluded masses are in political control.  When people are making laws based on the prejudices of bronze age desert dwellers, and are pushing to teach mythology as science, I think it is important that we try to get people thinking and questioning.  I know we can't MAKE anyone deconvert, but the more visible we are, the more we point out the inconsistencies, errors, and horrors in that "divine" book of theirs, the better the chances that some will stop and say, "whoa...wtf?" and eventually come to their senses.

107518[/snapback]

Welcome FID*, glad to have you here!!

Very nice post (-because I agree with you)!!

 

*(FID, FITD, 1st, or 1D... I picked FID because it's easy- otherwise too much to type!)

[aynalhub]

this site has provided me with endless comfort and release, and i think it is just that: a place for people who have been mentally raped to vent and share with others the reasons, consequences and discussions surrounding this whole atmosphere of religious life.

 

i feel anyone who thinks they are a wholly rational person who has a grasp on the nature and origin of physical reality is as deluded as any christian. and i think anyone who claims they have no irrational thoughts or beliefs or feelings about the world, their friends, their family, etc. is a flat-out liar.

 

but the fact is, christians are an *army*, and as proactive as any galileo or voltaire you might meet in one of these chatrooms. like someone said, you can't change someone's mind who is enamored of a religious system anyway, you can only frighten them away and annoy them.

 

admittedly, i have my own religion, as do many here, which is a vision of a world in which acceptance, reason and universal love and peace are the dominant desires of our race...and this vision is absolutely incompatible with any fundamental religion of any kind. religious fundamentalists have so engrained themselves in our culture that what i wrote a few lines above even makes *me* roll my eyes. but should it?

 

i'm not gonna go out and try to deconvert people, but if they engage me, my brain will respond with opposing ideas like the good machine that it is. and if it's fun, i sure as hell won't feel guilty.

 

sorry i sound kind of like an a-hole in this post. i'm just so tired of walking around on eggshells to cater to crazy people of any kind.

[Eponymic]

For me this isn't a tough question.

 

Yes.

 

Though it is conditional depending on a person's situation. There's not much use in giving them the truth if they're not going to listen to it at all.

[Sofia]

Jedweber~

 

I think your question is a very good one. Even considering walking away from a faith you have been commited to for so long, can be very, very difficult. It feels like being in a state of unrest at all times. Like you are playing tug-a-war, except you are the rope.

 

It's a huge decision that has massive consequences on one side and yet the other side says you will have such peace when you finally let go.

 

I don't have the answer and I also don't have a date when I'll have an answer. It's something that takes time and it's very individual and personal.

 

From what I understand, this site was created to support those who have left Christianity who feel that now that they've done so, they need some support around them. If it appears that they are trying to deconvert the visiting Christian here, it's most likely the Christian that instigated the conversation and started the debate. Debates can become persuasion and persuasion brings change.

 

Sometimes, it leads to deconversion.

 

 

Sofi

[Mythra]

I think your question is a very good one. Even considering walking away from a faith you have been commited to for so long, can be very, very difficult. It feels like being in a state of unrest at all times. Like you are playing tug-a-war, except you are the rope.

107564[/snapback]

 

This was very well put, Sofi. It's the in-between time that's the toughest, for sure. For me it was, anyway.

 

Once I finally took a deep breath, and said, ok - I no longer believe; it was a very liberating experience. I still remember the first morning I woke up from sleep and realized that the only thing in the room was me. No God, No angels, No demons, No anything. Just me. It was what is commonly called an epiphany.

 

I think Asimov is right, too. The only people that are gonna be influenced by anything that we have to say are the people who are already questioning things and have experienced conflicts that their faith can't resolve.

[Checkmate]

...............

The problem arises when we look at the bigger picture.  The beliefs of one person aren't all that significant. . .but the beliefs of the majority affect society, and it scares me that the deluded masses are in political control.  When people are making laws based on the prejudices of bronze age desert dwellers, and are pushing to teach mythology as science, I think it is important that we try to get people thinking and questioning.  I know we can't MAKE anyone deconvert, but the more visible we are, the more we point out the inconsistencies, errors, and horrors in that "divine" book of theirs, the better the chances that some will stop and say, "whoa...wtf?" and eventually come to their senses.

107518[/snapback]

And THIS is why I am an anti-theist. While it may seem wise, even magnanimous, to "live and let live" on an INDIVIDUAL basis, we cannot ignore the FACT that an entire LEGION of deluded people are affecting and controlling how "reality" is viewed and lived.

 

The Emperor Has No Clothes by Wayne Adkins

Does it matter what someone else believes? I know the truth about the Bible, so what do I care if others are content to go on believing a lie? Can I really be adversely affected by their beliefs? Ask anyone from New York if they were adversely affected on Sept 11, 2001 by what a few Muslim fundamentalists believed. Ask any Planned Parenthood employee if they are affected by what Christian fundamentalists believe. Yes, it matters. Yes it does affect me. Someday, someone is going to tell my children and yours that they are going to hell. Yes, it affects me. I know that despite the economic hardship to our communities, many stores are opened late and closed early on Sundays because of what others believe. Yes, it affects me. I know that millions of dollars each year are collected from the poor and elderly, protected from taxation, and spent on missions projects in foreign countries with zero return to our economy. Yes, it affects me. I know that racial tensions will continue to be fostered by Klansmen, the Nation of Islam movement, and the rhyming reverends who all claim that their God is leading them. Yes, it affects me. I have to deal with legislators who would have our schools sponsor prayer, teach creationism, and support faith based initiatives with tax money. Yes, it affects me. It affects you too.

Is it right to "destroy someone's faith"? Wrong question. We should be asking:

 

Should we allow someone's personal faith to dictate and dominate how the rest of us live?

[Ro-bear]

My heart truly goes out to those who struggle with belief/nonbelief. I guess I've had it easy because I never bought into it. I've had no trauma, only a little loneliness and a very little outright rejection. I have loved and lost, though, to other men and to death, so I have general knowledge of how loss affects the human psyche.

 

It must be like Daddy letting go of the bike. Or the pilot keeling over dead before you are licensed to fly. Damn, these similes are lame. I'm going to shut up now.

[Ouroboros]

Welcome FirstInTheDance,

 

May your time on this board, in the wee hours of the day, of intense typing on the keyboard, be educational and prosperous.

 

 

Interesting "Any Gods?" you have...

[Isak The Newt]

Group: New Member

Posts: 1

Joined: 30-October 05

Member No.: 887

Any Gods?: Scientific Pantheist

 

what? thats like... 16 days, you registered and never posted?

[Vigile]

Welcome FID*, glad to have you here!! 

Very nice post (-because I agree with you)!!

 

*(FID, FITD, 1st, or 1D... I picked FID because it's easy- otherwise too much to type!)

107523[/snapback]

 

Ditto on all counts.

[Angel]

Should we try to destroy people's faith?

Well, honestly most christians do that to each other. If you really want someone to lose faith, let them read the bible for themselves.

As far as this website, I am willing to say that most christians are not really affected by it as far as losing faith goes. I have found this site to actually be a help to me. When I came to this site, I was already out of church and out of the faith.

I have been tempted to try to talk a couple friends against the bible, talk some sense into them, but I can not do that, because I know when I was wrapped up into it, it was very important to me. They need to see for themselves or they won't see it clearly at all. When I was in my walk with Jesus, people tried to de-convert me and I considered it satan and continued in my journey. It was when I read and saw for myself, seeing the "loving examples" set out for me to follow, without anyone else's input, it was THEN I woke up and snapped out of it.

But no, I would not intentionally set out to ruin someone's faith.

[FirstInTheDance]

Hi Han, Isak, Vigile. I'm not really new here - I posted my deconversion as "Jenna" a few years ago, and I posted on and off as Pope Ima Mused (I was in a rather Discordian mood when I chose that name) for awhile on the old boards. I go through chatty phases where I post a bit, then I just sort of retire back to the shadows and lurk until I get the uncontrollable urge to say something.

 

As for my "any gods?" answer, this sight comes pretty close to describing my beliefs: http://www.pantheism.net/

 

An easy summary of Scientific Pantheism would be something like Paganism for Atheists.