What Really Is A "christian" Anyway?

[HanSoto]

(p.s. wasnt sure where to put this thread, move it if one deems necessary)

 

In my days of conservative Christian faith, I thought anyone who had "accepted Jesus into their heart as Lord and Savior" was a Christian, and that was that. I think often times though, we had (or at least I and many people I know still) these other subconscious litmus tests for what constituted as a Christian and what did not.

 

And I've justified calling myself a Christian up until this point because in my studies I realized there have been SO many different splinters of the faith, with varying beliefs on virtually every doctrine imaginable, that its almost laughable to say that any one branch truly represents what Jesus actually intended. And how would one ever know what he intended anyway? We cant even verify that what he said and did in the gospels actually happened let alone all that.

 

But more and more Im unsure if I should call myself a Christian, something else, or whether it really matters, or what I dont really know. I think a part of me just wants so despretley to still be apart of the religion I grew up in even if its only by a sliver of a percent....and then another part of me just wants to run as far as possible from what damaged me emotionally and made me such a judgmental prick at times.

 

I mean what I know about Jesus, I pretty much like. Even as far away from Christianity as I've come I can't deny that reading about him has changed who I am as a person and made me want to be more compassionate. But am I his follower? Am I really a Christian? I don't know. Maybe I don't even care.

[dyanaprajna0]

Who is a xtian? Like you pointed out, that really depends on who you ask. There's as many different definitions as there are xtians. Most conservative xtians say that, in order to be a xtian, all you have to do is confess jesus as lord. But then ask a baptist, or a methodist or pentecostal, if a mormon or a jehovah's witness is a xtian, and even though they've also accepted jesus as lord, will undoubtedly say no, not at all. So, there's goes the whole "faith alone" deal. Gandhi said he was a xtian, as well as a Hindu, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew, etc. So, what is a xtian? The simple answer, and the one that makes the most sense, is, "who knows?"

[par4dcourse]

Myth worshiping sheep works for me.

[BrotherJosh]

Depends on the time frame. If you ask what a Christian is now, and what a Christian is 200 years ago, 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, etc.. you would receive a different answer. Whoever qualifies as a Christian today would probably be on the rack during the Inquisition. Christianity has changed so much over time. It adapts and conforms to the needs and wants of every generation.

[mcdaddy]

Depends on the time frame. If you ask what a Christian is now, and what a Christian is 200 years ago, 500 years ago, 1,000 years ago, etc.. you would receive a different answer. Whoever qualifies as a Christian today would probably be on the rack during the Inquisition. Christianity has changed so much over time. It adapts and conforms to the needs and wants of every generation.

 

bingo.

[Zephie]

While you are correct with your definition about who is a xtian and who isn't, I would ask you to consider how many other things people impose on each other about their xtianity. I've heard my preacher say, "I don't drink, smoke, or curse, or hang with those who do." This statement is included in his definition of a xtian. There are also people who believe if one if Catholic that they aren't a xtian or people who cohabitate or are homosexuals....any number of things can be added to that list. Like others have said, that definition has varied so much over the years.

[Thurisaz]

I agree to the definition "she who accepts that jebus is supposedly the son of gawd is a christian"... not because it works damn well in everyday life but because (as far as I know) it's the only one that makes sense, more or less.

[Denyoz]

I was asking my sister the other day if she was still a christian, and I gave her this definition based on Wikipedia:

 

"A Christian is a person who adheres to Christianity, a religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as recorded in the Canonical gospels and the letters of the New Testament."

 

The Wiktionary definition is a bit different and threefold:

 

A christian is any one of those three:

 

1. A believer in Christianity.

2. An individual who seeks to live his or her life according to the principles and values taught by Jesus Christ.

3. An individual who has a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.

 

Most of the people in my family fall under #1. They believe that Christianity is true although they have never studied it. As far as seeking to live according to the principles and values taught by Jesus, they stick with "Thou shall not kill" and the 3 main sacraments: baptism, confirmation, first communion. Oh and they go to catholic church once in a while.

 

Doesn't take much to be a christian really.

[YellowJacket]

my first reaction is: a group who refuse to accept the finality of death, and come up with mystical reasonings as to why their own id will continue after loss of physical brain function.

 

to me, the rest of the details are just mental gymnastics about how we achieve this eternity, even tho deep inside everyone knows it doesn't exist.

[Tealeaf]

A Christian is someone who thinks that a typical apocolyptic death cult that grew out of Second Temple Jewish origin is somehow special, relevent, or real in any of it's claims. Most people who profess to be Christians know very little about it and instead identify with whatever bits and pieces their particular local culture throws into the mix and labels "Christian."

 

There really is nothing to be respected in my opinion on the spectrum of identifying as "Christian." Either you haven't really studied your shit and thus don't actually give a flying fuck about honesty and integrity with your label at the one end, or you have and you are out in some sort of 'lala' land thinking that a) the claims of the cult have any implication today after ~2000 years of NOTHING, the atrocities in the bible are somehow acceptable, and c) the atrocities of the church are to be overlooked; and to have excuses made for. The former may not even have the mental capacity for intellectual honesty and only care about gushy feelings and an excuse to do anything they want and be 'forgiven', the latter are likely collecting a paycheck or have had their minds so deeply warped by the cult that they can't imagine life without it and will do anything to protect it.

 

I hate to say it, but it's pretty well true. In my mind it's basically: Christian = Idiot. I'm not saying all Christians are idiots. But including that word is just adding a dash of stupid to your persona to me. Like peppering your potatoes or something. But with feces instead.

 

All the the excuses for being a Christian are just that: excuses. Excuses not to think. Excuses to divide and label. But most striking to me is the excuse to be good. Sadly I get that a lot from absent minded "Christians." If you need an excuse to be good, you are a shitty human being and need to go have a sit in the time-out chair and think about what you think.

[florduh]

A Christian can be anything from a snake handler to a Unitarian. At best I might say a Christian (at minimum) accepts that there is at least some truth to be found in the Bible and Jesus is an important figure in the mythology.

 

Why anyone would want to identify with a movement that has historically (and even to this day) promoted bigotry, hatred, war and misinformation is beyond me, though. I guess the Christian meme runs deep in some cultures. It had me trapped for a while, too.

[OrdinaryClay]

If God is not real a Christian is a fool. If the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is indeed the Creator of the universe (which I believe with no doubt He is) a Christian is any person who has established a personal, and supernatural, relationship with their Creator through Jesus Christ.

 

1Co 15:19

If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

 

 

The term Christian does not have a cultural definition. There are many mestizo peasants who are far greater in the eyes of God than many in the american church.

[OrdinaryClay]

my first reaction is: a group who refuse to accept the finality of death, and come up with mystical reasonings as to why their own id will continue after loss of physical brain function.

 

to me, the rest of the details are just mental gymnastics about how we achieve this eternity, even tho deep inside everyone knows it doesn't exist.

 

 

No offense, but atheism could be viewed as an escape from a fear of death as well, could it not. The rationalization that death is the same as prebirth can be viewed as a way to assuage a fear of death. So I think any criticism that Christianity is a crutch used to face our death fears is unjustified.

[LivingLife]

If God is not real a Christian is a fool[ish].

-snip-

Correct and that is the real answer.

 

No offense, but atheism could be viewed as an escape from a fear of death as well, could it not.

No it is not an escape. It is a realisation there is fuck all anyone can do to meet their eventual demise. We all end up in a casket or an urn.

The rationalization that death is the same as prebirth can be viewed as a way to assuage a fear of death. So I think any criticism that Christianity is a crutch used to face our death fears is unjustified.

Sure it can be justified but what is there to fear? I mean if you are "destined" to get cancer and die a painful death, belief in god means squat. My mother died of a very painful cancer after 65 years as a uber dedicated believer and that did not change her lot. She held onto the very last breath despite her intense pain, I know I was there when she died. My dad succumbed to Alzheimer's after 60 years uber dedication. Both had shitty deaths. They denied themselves so much in life to remain pure and chaste and in the end it meant diddley squat.

 

Pretending there is something after death gives solace/escapism and stops you from facing the cold hard truth, everyone dies and it is Game Over.

 

It would be nice (in some ways) if any of this were true but it is not. The older you get the easier it is to accept your mortality.

 

Christians are self deluded and it adds nothing to their everyday life. They think it does but it doesn't. The burden is not light and the yoke is not easy. Just unnecessary baggage you have convinced yourself to haul with like a proverbial ball and chain.

 

True freedom™ comes when you put away imaginary and childish things. You are a slave to your own imagination, nothing else. Anyone here will tell you the exact same thing.

[Tealeaf]

If God is not real a Christian is a fool. If the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is indeed the Creator of the universe (which I believe with no doubt He is) a Christian is any person who has established a personal, and supernatural, relationship with their Creator through Jesus Christ.

 

1Co 15:19

If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.

 

 

The term Christian does not have a cultural definition. There are many mestizo peasants who are far greater in the eyes of God than many in the american church.

 

Seriously? You're quoting the bible like it means anything?

 

The way you proudly boast faith in the "god of Abraham" puts the picture of a guy starring through a straw into the blue daylit sky and professing he's looking at the whole universe.

 

You've picked the god of an ancient character of fiction and aligned yourself with it. Please, sir, tell me how that is any different than picking any other of the plethora of gods (equally invisible) humanity has cooked up....

 

This is why I tend to align "Christian" with "idiot." You're probably already running bible verses through your head as "reason" to believe in the god of Abraham. Sorry to be insulting but this kind of 'thought' (programming) is exactly why "Christians" completely miss the point of why atheists and ex-Christians reject Christianity; and all religions.

 

Do you deny all of history outside of anything the bible says? Do you squish the vastness of the universe into the bible's little picture? Do you not find it perplexing that billions of people have lived and died believing in all sorts of things different than you but just as hard as you? Do you not find it kind of shallow to assume you have the answers to everything, or an acceptable embrace of ignorance as a virtue by faith before you're presented with any situation?

 

This will almost certainly be over your head but.... Don't you find Abraham's supposed behaviour to be textbook schizophrenic? Voices 'come to him' out of no where - and to ONLY him. And they tell him specific things. This is exactly how schizophrenia effects a persons thoughts and behaviour. You're proud of following the god of an ancient middle eastern schizophrenic? Like seriously, I've read the stories of Abraham and studied schizophrenia in school; and have had it in my family. Making up gods and supernatural claims and believing in them with vigor is extremely common, and happened in my family.

 

I'm not buying the claims of the mentally ill, sorry.

[Deva]

my first reaction is: a group who refuse to accept the finality of death, and come up with mystical reasonings as to why their own id will continue after loss of physical brain function.

 

to me, the rest of the details are just mental gymnastics about how we achieve this eternity, even tho deep inside everyone knows it doesn't exist.

 

 

No offense, but atheism could be viewed as an escape from a fear of death as well, could it not. The rationalization that death is the same as prebirth can be viewed as a way to assuage a fear of death. So I think any criticism that Christianity is a crutch used to face our death fears is unjustified.

 

What about reincarnation? I assume you will say that is an escape also - but it is still life after death. Don't "dead" spirits need some kind of body to operate? How would a view of reincarnation be an escape, whereas a view of a soul in heaven is not? Purely because the Bible tells you so?

 

Incidentally, I have read where some of the early Christian churches did believe in reincarnation. Of course eventually they were branded heretics and some verse in the Bible was put in to condemn them. "It is appointing to a person once to die, then the judgment" or some such thing.

[mcdaddy]

my first reaction is: a group who refuse to accept the finality of death, and come up with mystical reasonings as to why their own id will continue after loss of physical brain function.

 

to me, the rest of the details are just mental gymnastics about how we achieve this eternity, even tho deep inside everyone knows it doesn't exist.

 

 

No offense, but atheism could be viewed as an escape from a fear of death as well, could it not. The rationalization that death is the same as prebirth can be viewed as a way to assuage a fear of death. So I think any criticism that Christianity is a crutch used to face our death fears is unjustified.

 

What about reincarnation? I assume you will say that is an escape also - but it is still life after death. Don't "dead" spirits need some kind of body to operate? How would a view of reincarnation be an escape, whereas a view of a soul in heaven is not? Purely because the Bible tells you so?

 

Incidentally, I have read where some of the early Christian churches did believe in reincarnation. Of course eventually they were branded heretics and some verse in the Bible was put in to condemn them. "It is appointing to a person once to die, then the judgment" or some such thing.

 

This is why they asked if JTB was Elijah, or if Jesus was JTB. They believed in reincarnation.

[Tealeaf]

Holy shit I just read some of OrdinaryClay's previous posts and I was spot on having only read his posts in this thread.

 

What do I find? Him basically proposing ignorance as a virtue! He doesn't know but it doesn't matter.... Faith!

 

I'm getting too good at this. The religious mentality is scarily predicatable!

 

Which is another point for the OP. A Christian is someone who subscribes to a label, and that label inevitabley drives them to deny a piece of themselves to some degree; or pave it over with something not of themselves. It's sad because when they take this label they are destroying their originality and uniqueness as an individual human being. It's lame actually! When someone professes to be a Christian, there's a list of ready-made things you can probably predict about them.

 

Contrast that with the atheist label; one people shouldn't even have to use. It's so much more interesting because there's mystery to be had in the person. There is more genuineness to their nature. You can't exactly predict anything based on a negative. Just like if you find out someone isn't a firefighter.... Not all atheists like the same things or value the same things. Many may. There's nothing holding them to anything strictly. It's not just atheists either. It's anyone who doesn't surrender to a loaded label.

[OrdinaryClay]

Sure it can be justified but what is there to fear? I mean if you are "destined" to get cancer and die a painful death, belief in god means squat. My mother died of a very painful cancer after 65 years as a uber dedicated believer and that did not change her lot. She held onto the very last breath despite her intense pain, I know I was there when she died. My dad succumbed to Alzheimer's after 60 years uber dedication. Both had shitty deaths. They denied themselves so much in life to remain pure and chaste and in the end it meant diddley squat.

 

I'm sorry to hear of your pain. There have been some painful deaths in my family as well.

[Guest wester]

Christianity is a social costruction. A book, full of hypocrisy and contradictions is produced and a public declaration to it's words are required. No criticism or variation from the proscribed doctrine will be tolerated. Once you do this you are part of the IN-group.

 

It reminds me so much of China in the late 1950s and 1960s when Mao's policies were screwing everything up left and right, but noone could admit it or acknowledge it. Mao had a little red book too that served a similar funtion to the Christian little red book.

 

Have a good day.

[OrdinaryClay]

You've picked the god of an ancient character of fiction and aligned yourself with it. Please, sir, tell me how that is any different than picking any other of the plethora of gods (equally invisible) humanity has cooked up....

 

I do believe special revelation, such as the Bible, is evidence for God, but I also have spent a lot of time studying natural theology. I find the Kalam Cosmological Argument and the Teleological Argument the most convincing, but there are others as well.

 

Do you deny all of history outside of anything the bible says? Do you squish the vastness of the universe into the bible's little picture?

 

Actually I've studied heavily in all the relevant sciences. I've found no contradictions with my faith in Jesus Christ.

 

Do you not find it perplexing that billions of people have lived and died believing in all sorts of things different than you but just as hard as you? Do you not find it kind of shallow to assume you have the answers to everything, or an acceptable embrace of ignorance as a virtue by faith before you're presented with any situation?

 

The same can be said for atheism, no. All beliefs have to stand the test if evidence. No belief gets a free ride.

[OrdinaryClay]

my first reaction is: a group who refuse to accept the finality of death, and come up with mystical reasonings as to why their own id will continue after loss of physical brain function.

 

to me, the rest of the details are just mental gymnastics about how we achieve this eternity, even tho deep inside everyone knows it doesn't exist.

No offense, but atheism could be viewed as an escape from a fear of death as well, could it not. The rationalization that death is the same as prebirth can be viewed as a way to assuage a fear of death. So I think any criticism that Christianity is a crutch used to face our death fears is unjustified.

 

What about reincarnation? I assume you will say that is an escape also - but it is still life after death. Don't "dead" spirits need some kind of body to operate? How would a view of reincarnation be an escape, whereas a view of a soul in heaven is not? Purely because the Bible tells you so?

 

I don't deny there are other beliefs for alleviating our fear of death. I also don't deny that the Christian doctrine of the afterlife can be soothing when faced with death. The Bible makes no secret that we should not fear death so it is explicit in the book. Perhaps I shuld have worded this post differently - http://www.ex-christ...ay/#entry744934

 

Incidentally, I have read where some of the early Christian churches did believe in reincarnation. Of course eventually they were branded heretics and some verse in the Bible was put in to condemn them. "It is appointing to a person once to die, then the judgment" or some such thing.

 

I've never heard of this. If you have some citation or link I would like to see it.

[OrdinaryClay]

Christianity is a social costruction.

 

Just because something has a social construct does not make it untrue. Even true beliefs have social constricts that go with them.

[LivingLife]

The same can be said for atheism, no. All beliefs have to stand the test if evidence. No belief gets a free ride.

Atheism is not a belief pal. You are making the typical xian mistake. You cannot box atheism (non belief in god(s) due to lack of evidence OR evidence found wanting in preponderance of the "evidence") into a belief structure. We have no tenets of faith/belief and worldviews vary greatly.

 

It is the same as you non belief in say Hindu gods, we have just included all gods.

 

We do not make the fallacies of appeal to numbers, appeal to majik, appeal to authority. Our evidence for our generic worldview is based in empirical scientific evidence. We have no deer leeders and although some may find the writings of Dawkins et al enlightening, they receive no donations from us and we do not venerate them as the xians do with their deer leaders.

[Guest Valk0010]

Christianity is a social costruction.

 

Just because something has a social construct does not make it untrue. Even true beliefs have social constricts that go with them.

Well being a social construction does make falsehoods easier to peddle. Anthropologically speaking religion serves as a explanation and as a social construct. It helps to run things. If you want to run things differently claim the world is different, religion generally follows suit. A sort of low rent example, is the role of women is society. If men want to have power over women, state that god wants it to be so. Say it loudly enough you particularly in say prescientific palestine, get your point across and find people agreeing with you. So in that sense yes Christianity is a social construction. It is created by people for to be used purposely. Religion is a social construct because its used to continue social relations when a time where there wasn't much else to work with to survive.