Dealing With Immoral Institutions

[Denyoz]

This thread is an extension of my other thread entitled So Lying and Cheating Is Ok Then?

 

We more or less all agreed in my first thread that we should abide by the Golden Rule when dealing with individuals, which is: One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself. So lying and cheating are usually not encouraged.

 

But what about when we deal with institutions? Should we treat them with the same respect?

 

Most of our daily dealings are with institutions, or with individuals who work for institutions. Just look at what's inside your mailbox.

 

Here is a list of the main institutions we deal with on a regular basis:

 

- financial institutions

- government

- educational

- medical

- political

- judicial

- military

- religious

- mass media

- police

- businesses

- corporations

 

Let's take religious institutions for example. What did we do when we realized that they were lying, cheating and deceiving us? We ditched them with a vengeance. Thus this website.

 

Now, how about the other institutions on the list. How are they treating us? How should we treat them in return?

[London]

I think for me, I treat the people working at those institutions as humans first. And I respect the institution and it's rules/policies as it is. I may not always like the rules but I do respect them. That however is conditional. As a customer I expect to be respected as well. I value a business that runs in a professional manner and treats it's employees with respect. Once that relationship becomes broken, I tend to move to the competitions business.

 

I'm not the type of person who want's to get all I can and scam a business or use it for my personal agenda. At the end of the day I have to be able to respect myself and how I behaved. I have to live with me until the end of my time so I don't really want to be strapped with a big jerk all the time.

 

If you can't live with yourself, you're not really gonna convince a healthy person to live with you either.

 

Although a company is not a human, I still think the way you behave/interact reflects on yourself.

 

When a company, like Invisible Children for example, promote hate by funding it, and scam people for a bogus cause, and the people running it are unethical. That deserves zero respect. And in the case of a company that does that, I think they need to be called out publicly on it.

 

When you do harm as an institution, you need to be exposed. And in the same vein, we need to remember to say thank you to the institutions that do good things.

[jdog]

I think like with anything there are bad apples out there. If you come across something that doesn't seem right then shop around it's not like all businesses are bad, or all police are crooked. And like London said, any bad seed they need to be pulled up on it and exposed if possible but you just carry on doing your best to conduct your life in a way that you can be happy and have peace over.

We did leave Christianity but I personally am not in a conflict with anyone over it, not fighting against it. It is the way things are. It's wrong how we were deceived but what can we do. It's bigger than all of us, can't control the spread of it. And it maybe the same with some of those institutions you listed.

 

I think with some things it's like we may not have a choice as some businesses have a monopoly on the service that you want and you may not have an option to shop around, you either do business with them or you go without. I am thinking things like cable service, telephone.

[Guest wester]

First, evaluate your institutions for legitimacy. More often than not you will find them lacking and see the vast majority of fogged out humans regurgitating a host of logical fallacies (appeal to tradition, appeal to status quo, appeal to law, appeal to authority, etc...) and they will ad nauseum vomit up unconscious rationalizations for the crap and injustice that goes on everyday in what passes for society. Check with both your friends and enemies to see if your legitimacy conclusions are valid.

 

If the institution proves legitimate, respect it, work with it, use it to your benefit.

 

If the institution is illegitimate, ignore it (as best you can), walk away, work around it, undermine it, monkeywrench it, boycott it, or burn the f*ker to the ground while blasting heavy metal and chanting "sayonara suckers."

 

For example: the cops in my old home town - 90% of the population walked around in total, absolute, unremitting fear of the police. This is called "following the law."

At the same time, the cops are down in the ghetto, stalking and butchering young men with no respect for due process or the actual laws on the books. They act as judge jury and executioner.

 

Is this legitimate? From a white racist perspective, absolutely legitimate. From an objective perspective not at all. "Not all police are crooked"...then why do so, so many of the 'good' cops provide cover, make excuses for and all but strap a gag to their mouth on behalf of the crooked cops?

 

Move to the courts - are they legitimate? What or who do they represent? Are they objective? Let's say an American Indian group lays claim to a parcel of land and produces treaties and documents to prove original ownership. How do the current courts fare in this regard? Would an American court return any inch of Manhattan to the Womponoag Indians whose heads were used as footballs by Dutch "settlers/invaders" ?

 

My cousin took an oath to defend the constitution, but he never bothered to read it or any of the pertinent international laws. He and a bunch of his gung ho buddies invaded Iraq and helped kill and ruin the lives of many people because George Bush told them to, end of discussion. Almost every institution in America was on board. Was any of this legitimate?

 

And I find my respect for "the people" who work in these institutions to be limited in the extreme. If they are benefiting from denial and refusal to alter or abolish their institutions, then they are ( usually a big) part of the problem.

 

I think you will find that almost everything on your list has particular aspects that deserve more serious, in-depth analysis. In America just about all of them are farcical. And hot air is all that most folks have to defend them.

 

Never stop questioning. Good Luck and Be Careful Out There

[Denyoz]

I think you will find that almost everything on your list has particular aspects that deserve more serious, in-depth analysis.

 

I agree with you, wester. Thank you very much for your comment.

 

If we would take the time to examine each one of those institutions, using the same diligence, open-mindedness, and passion we had when we examined the religious institutions, we would be appalled at what we find.

 

I can't understand. If we humans are so compassionate, empathetic, intelligent, leaning toward good, striving to better ourselve and evolve successfully by sharing and helping each other, howcome our institutions are not like that? We built those institutions didn't we? Why didn't we make them in our image?

[Guest wester]

As humans, we have a long list of congitive biases - old wives tales - that we use to stroke our own egos and tell ourselves how great we are. Perhaps we created those institutions in our own image after all........

[Denyoz]

When you do harm as an institution, you need to be exposed. And in the same vein, we need to remember to say thank you to the institutions that do good things.

 

Hi London and thanks for your comment.

 

Ha-ha! You picked an easy one: Businesses. They are relatively easy to deal with. Most of them have put into place the "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" policy. So it's pretty easy not to get screwed. Can you imagine the government putting into place such a policy? "Satisfaction guaranteed or your tax money back." Funny isn't it? But if you think about it logically, they should treat others the same way they expect to be treated. We're not asking much from the politicians, just that they do what they said they would do once elected. Lying is all they do, why should we accept that. It would be pretty easy to put into place a system to take care of this problem but it's never done. I wonder why.

 

In reference to the above quote, would you say thank you to a religious institution such as the Roman Catholic Church for the good things they have done? Because they did do some good.

[Vigile]

Most of them have put into place the "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back" policy. So it's pretty easy not to get screwed.

 

What about the banks, who lobbied for deregulation and toothless incompetent, regulators in the SEC, perpetrated massive fraud (S&L crisis) causing the tax payers to bail them out, and then did it again an a much wider scale (2008 credit crisis)?

 

We are both beholden to these institutions, are forced to float them and have absolutely no recourse to get our money back.

 

Similar institutions: Big pharma, big oil, the military industrial complex.

 

As an American, I personally feel reemed.

[Denyoz]

We did leave Christianity but I personally am not in a conflict with anyone over it, not fighting against it. It is the way things are. It's wrong how we were deceived but what can we do. It's bigger than all of us, can't control the spread of it.

 

Hey jdog, thanks for replying.

 

Hmm, I'm trying to follow your logic but there seems to be some contradictions there. Regarding Christianity, you say you are not fighting against it. Depends what you mean by fighting. I'm sure you are not going around burning down churches and killing preachers, but fighting can also mean to strive in the opposite direction, to contest, to dispute, which is why you joined this website I suppose. I notice that you are a Silver Patron, which means you have given money to support this site. So yes, we CAN do something to "control the spread of it" even if it's bigger than all of us.

 

This is what I expect us to do in respect to the other institutions that are deceiving us. We can stop participating (as much as possible), join together, discuss the situation intelligently, share experiences, propose solutions or alternatives, invest time and money supporting others who are struggling.

[Denyoz]

What about the banks, who lobbied for deregulation and toothless incompetent, regulators in the SEC, perpetrated massive fraud (S&L crisis) causing the tax payers to bail them out, and then did it again an a much wider scale (2008 credit crisis)?

We are both beholden to these institutions, are forced to float them and have absolutely no recourse to get our money back.

Similar institutions: Big pharma, big oil, the military industrial complex.

As an American, I personally feel reemed.

 

Hey Vigile, I think I feel reemed too, although I could not find this verb in the dictionary. I guess it means being rammed into by a large horned animal.

 

Banks are perhaps the most controlling deceivers of all time. Money is power and they have the authority to create it. A couple years ago I asked myself the question: "Where does money come from?" I know governments print money, but what do they do with it? I know what they DON'T do with it, they don't split it equally and give it to the people. So who gets it? Pretty simple question but have you ever tried finding a satisfactory answer? The simple answer is Banks.

 

The only thing I could find on the subject was this nice little documentary: Money as Debt. It explains in a simplistic way how money is created. I was shocked! Banks create money as debt, basically out of thin air. Sheesh... how many people are aware of that? I wish I could create money like that. Am I allowed to? I wonder why.

[Vigile]

Seems like I spelled it incorrectly. The Firefox spell checker didn't save me.

 

Reamed

 

The only thing I could find on the subject was this nice little documentary: Money as Debt. It explains in a simplistic way how money is created. I was shocked! Banks create money as debt, basically out of thin air. Sheesh... how many people are aware of that? I wish I could create money like that. Am I allowed to? I wonder why.

 

I've seen that as well. It's somewhat accurate, but it gives a one-sided view. Money is more than just debt, even in a fiat system. Money offers a liquid way to transfer wealth. Wealth is not created by credit, wealth exists in the form of scarce goods, such as oil, gas, labor, etc... and wealth can be expanded via new technology, comparative advantages, etc...

 

The documentary is interesting and makes some good points, but there is more to the story. At the end of the day, the Fed, government and the banking system just does not operate on the same accounting principles that rule the rest of us. I see it kind of like the 2nd law of thermodynamics. In a closed system, entropy is the end result. The earth, however, receives energy from an outside source -- the sun -- so the rules don't work quite the same way. The financial system is sorta kinda like this as far as I can gather.

[London]

Can you imagine the government putting into place such a policy? "Satisfaction guaranteed or your tax money back."

 

In reference to the above quote, would you say thank you to a religious institution such as the Roman Catholic Church for the good things they have done? Because they did do some good.

 

I did pick businesses since I have had so much experience with them. However I can speak to government. I used to work for local government and the only way to make sure it runs well is to hire people who are ethical. I watched the unethical take advantage and profit off of government. And I also worked for some people who had the the good attitude of being caretakers of the taxpayers interests. Good people work for the taxpayer and there are check and balances in place to make it work for the public. High ethics. Unfortunately there are too many people working in government jobs who are looking for a free ride and using the taxpayer financial flow for personal gain.

 

It's not that we need a smaller government, it's that we need better people in charge who actually earn their pay and are ethical. That would save at least 33% of any budget in any city, county, state, etc. Why? Because ethical people manage. They don't just let the slackers not do their job, they don't over spend, they care.

 

As far as the Catholic church... it's true that all religions have contributed something good at one time or another. I think the church needs to admit that the whole scam about the bible being true is bunk. What about all the other books locked away in the vatican that were not included in the bible? It's all cherry picking. I think that 2000 years of crimes against humanity needs to be addressed. If you worked for Hitler you are still persecuted today, the church should be treated the same.

 

The list of good to evil ratio for them unfortunately is against them in the end. I personally believe that they should not have any protections of any kind in any country on Earth. Done, over, finished! They need to go.

 

Perhaps Italy can take the vatican and make it an amusement park.

[Guest danny64]

I am an atheist and (politically) a liberal. my friends are for the most part the same. i have had some arguments lately with several about religious institutions and how they should be regarded and treated by law. i believe that most fundamentalist religious groups (christian and islamic) should be dealt with as hate groups...given the same regard and treatment by law as say...the KKK. fundy groups of both xian and allah teach that homosexuals are an abomination and that women are to be subbordinate. they nurture (if you will pardon the positive connotation) children in an enviroment that trains them from a young age that girls are to be servants and baby makers and that men are in charge. this indoctrination has a negative impact on the lives of not only those individuals that belong to said congregations, but also on the community at large and the culture. my argument with my friends is about our (liberals) tolerance of those that are intolerant.

 

what legal steps can we take? i am not an attorney or political science major, but it seems to that fundy groups that discrimante against women and homosexuals. i am talking about Religious Affiliated universities, hospitals, ect. they should get no government monies. period

[midniterider]

Here is a list of the main institutions we deal with on a regular basis:

 

- financial institutions

- government

- educational

- medical

- political

- judicial

- military

- religious

- mass media

- police

- businesses

- corporations

----------------------------------

 

People and institutions (which are groups of people) are out for themselves. They will screw you over if you don't protect yourself against them. If you have a dollar , one of these institutions wants it. Whose life is more important? Yours? Or the institution's? So you do your best to legally protect yourself against these institutions. One problem some people (i.e. me) deal with is people pleasing. This involves putting others (including institutions) before me. As I grow older I am less inclined to please people and institutions because I see that over the years it has not helped out my situation any. Put yourself first. Then you are in a better position to help others. Question motives of organizations.

[Denyoz]

People and institutions (which are groups of people) are out for themselves. They will screw you over if you don't protect yourself against them. If you have a dollar , one of these institutions wants it. Whose life is more important? Yours? Or the institution's? So you do your best to legally protect yourself against these institutions. One problem some people (i.e. me) deal with is people pleasing. This involves putting others (including institutions) before me. As I grow older I am less inclined to please people and institutions because I see that over the years it has not helped out my situation any. Put yourself first. Then you are in a better position to help others. Question motives of organizations.

 

Yes, exactly, midniterider. These institutions deceive you by pretending that they are there to help you, but all they want is to use you, fool you and get your money. And they all work together, protecting each other. They remind me of BibleGod, they threaten you constantly, not with hell but with arrest, fines, prison: "Better do exactly what we tell you, or else..." They think they own us, and that they know it all, and you're never allowed to question them. Exactly like Bible God. I bet they don't even exist. It's like money. The value of money only exists in our minds. Sorry for the babbling, I'm a bit drunk Cheers!

[jdog]

We did leave Christianity but I personally am not in a conflict with anyone over it, not fighting against it. It is the way things are. It's wrong how we were deceived but what can we do. It's bigger than all of us, can't control the spread of it.

 

Hey jdog, thanks for replying.

 

Hmm, I'm trying to follow your logic but there seems to be some contradictions there. Regarding Christianity, you say you are not fighting against it. Depends what you mean by fighting. I'm sure you are not going around burning down churches and killing preachers, but fighting can also mean to strive in the opposite direction, to contest, to dispute, which is why you joined this website I suppose. I notice that you are a Silver Patron, which means you have given money to support this site. So yes, we CAN do something to "control the spread of it" even if it's bigger than all of us.

 

This is what I expect us to do in respect to the other institutions that are deceiving us. We can stop participating (as much as possible), join together, discuss the situation intelligently, share experiences, propose solutions or alternatives, invest time and money supporting others who are struggling.

 

Ha who knew. so I AM doing something. I didn't think of it like that. it's on a small scale but I am actually saying something by joining this site. I am making a statement by saying something was wrong and I don't want any part of it. And YES we can do the same with other institutions. Thanks so much for pointing that out. I see what you are saying now.

[Denyoz]

This is what I expect us to do in respect to the other institutions that are deceiving us. We can stop participating (as much as possible), join together, discuss the situation intelligently, share experiences, propose solutions or alternatives, invest time and money supporting others who are struggling.

 

Ha who knew. so I AM doing something. I didn't think of it like that. it's on a small scale but I am actually saying something by joining this site. I am making a statement by saying something was wrong and I don't want any part of it. And YES we can do the same with other institutions. Thanks so much for pointing that out. I see what you are saying now.

 

Great! I'd give you ten points, but I can't give more than one. You are the first to acknowledge that my idea has value. Thank you. I was starting to feel alone and misunderstood.

 

I really think we should be scrutinizing ALL of our institutions, not just the religious ones. But this website might not be the place for this, I don't know. I did a google search for "immoral institutions" and "archaic institutions" and found nothing. I wonder if there are public forums for ex-bankers, ex-government employees, ex-teachers, ex-doctors, ex-politicians, ex-soldiers, EX-PEOPLE-WHO-WERE-FUCKED-UP-BY-ANY-INSTITUTION.

 

All of our institutions are flawed, I think. All of them give themselves authority over us. All of them are archaic. All of them are lying, deceiving and cheating. All of them are governed by principles that need to be revised. And as far as I know, there is no commission, committee, public forum in existence to help make this happen, other than ex-christian. If there is, I would sure like to know. Help anyone?

[London]

I really think we should be scrutinizing ALL of our institutions, not just the religious ones. But this website might not be the place for this, I don't know. I did a google search for "immoral institutions" and "archaic institutions" and found nothing. I wonder if there are public forums for ex-bankers, ex-government employees, ex-teachers, ex-doctors, ex-politicians, ex-soldiers, EX-PEOPLE-WHO-WERE-FUCKED-UP-BY-ANY-INSTITUTION.

 

All of our institutions are flawed, I think. All of them give themselves authority over us. All of them are archaic. All of them are lying, deceiving and cheating. All of them are governed by principles that need to be revised. And as far as I know, there is no commission, committee, public forum in existence to help make this happen, other than ex-christian. If there is, I would sure like to know. Help anyone?

 

I did some searching with different terms and was unable to come up with any particular forum or section of a current forum that is specific like that. It seems when it comes to ex-profession there are only news stories. Or kooks who claim they were government employees and the world is going to end because of what the government is involved with. Gotta love the loonies for the entertainment value.

 

There is a website http://www.change.org/ that does make a change. It's in line with what you are trying to say.

[Denyoz]

There is a website http://www.change.org/ that does make a change. It's in line with what you are trying to say.

 

Thanks so much London, I had forgotten about this site, I think I've seen it before. Will check it again.

[Denyoz]

By the way, I think our fear of established authority comes from this: All Authority Comes From God

 

Oh, and also because we don't want to go to prison (hell)

[London]

I have a funny story to share about "authority". Short background: my uncle is a retired detective, and I used to deal with the police at work many times a month (shoplifting, disturbances, drunks, drugs). So lots of police interaction for me.

 

Two of my really good friends are also friends with each other. We all used to hang out on a weekly basis. Well my male best friend is just shit-in-your-pants scared of the police, for no good reason either. Never been in trouble with the law and never will be. It's quite funny really. We got stopped on a routine traffic stop and I thought he was going to melt down.

 

My other friend, who is female, decided to change careers and was considering being a police officer. Motorcycle specifically. Well I was fine with her career choice but did mention that I would prefer not losing her to a criminal, or a motorcycle. But she is a smart one so I was not that concerned. My other friend was freaking out. He didn't want her to become a cop. I said, "You are being irrational, she is the same person, just in a different set of work clothes."

 

He eventually got a grip and realized his fear has nothing to do with the person and was only seeing a uniform. It took a while to get him there. Two great people, one funny situation.

 

I learned as a child that there is a real person in that uniform. It's a human with a job to do. Person + uniform = job

You learn a healthy respect for the person and the law (or whatever job the person does). Same for the church. Or President, Politician, CEO, etc. It's when the person is corrupt that it makes us disrespect the uniform and as humans we feel betrayed and become suspicious about the motives of all the uniforms. The same can be said in reverse. And in the case of the church it unfortunately applies in both directions.

 

Ok, well didn't mean to get on my soapbox while trying to relay a funny story.

[Vigile]

I'm not so sure fear of police is all that irrational, but we've beaten this dead horse to death around here, so I won't get into the whys.

[Galien]

Has no respect for authority of any kind, because it is so corrupt and dishonest.

[Guest wester]

"You are being irrational, she is the same person, just in a different set of work clothes...there is a real person in that uniform. It's a human with a job to do. Person + uniform = job"

 

And what pray tell specifically is the JOB of the police.

 

Protect property.

Protect capital.

Destroy the lives of anyone who is forced into circumstances because they don't have, don't want or don't care about access to either property or capital.

 

When is the last time cops sided with workers in a labor dispute? Could it be never?

Cops drugged and killed Fred Hampton for organizing free breakfasts for poor African-Americans.

Cops put Leonard Peltier in jail for nothing anyone can prove he did. Cops killed Troy Davis. Last year Cops murdered funny looking/acting people on the BART in San Francisco. Cops routinely stalked and murdered African and Latino kids in my old hometown. Cops covered for the murder of Trayvon Martin. COPS routed Occupy Encampments all over the USA. Cops never entered the doors of Goldman-Sachs, Citibank or the Federal Reserve Bank of New York.

 

That's one Hell of a "job", my friend.

 

If you are interacting daily with such institutions, for a paycheck, or whatever - and you are not actively breaking your back to reform them, out the bad apples (the worst of who are usually sitting on the board of directors, signing your checks) then, like I said, you are part of the problem.

 

Cops are the footsoldiers rioting on behalf of the rich.

They enforce an unequal, unjust status quo that has no justification to exist. Appeal to Status Quo is a logical fallacy. Therefore a cop is the very embodiment of a logical fallacy.

 

Look at the domestic statistics on cops - the worst cases of divorce, abuse, mental breakdown and suicide. Why? Because they entered the job to "play the part" of some John Wayne wannabe...be a good guy movie star....and help people (sorry if I am rolling on the floor busting a gut -- they actually want to help! people). But they break down and go crazy because their job as such is not to help "people" but to unjustly destroy the lives of their fellow humans on behalf of "the law", so that a few "rich" people will benefit.

 

Law = codified social pathology

If you want to help people, frick the cop paycheck and be a teacher. And if you really want to piss off the cops and change the world, do it for free.

 

Have a nice day.

[London]

If you want to help people, frick the cop paycheck and be a teacher. And if you really want to piss off the cops and change the world, do it for free.

 

Have a nice day.

 

She was a teacher, poor, underpaid, working for one of the best school districts in the area, for over a decade.

 

Becoming a police officer in a number of places is actually really hard. I heard every step of her training along the way, from the pre-qualifications to the interview I had with the departments as a reference asking all kinds of personal questions about their character, to the end result of becoming an officer.

 

It's a long and very trying process. Not all police are bad people, that's like saying all nurse's are bad because of 50 stories about abuse. No that was 50 bad nurses in the news but the other 100,000 who are good don't get a news story because the media only reports the bad things. Americans only concentrate on scandal and the morose, hmmm maybe we are a christian country after all.

 

Where I live now you hardly see the police. They have not gone the route of having too many officers. And it's just an average town in america. If you want to talk about corrupt, what is congress doing for us? Getting paid.