A new thread on prayer

[greasemonkey]

I was reading through the other thread on prayer, and just couldn't wade through all of it, so I guess I'll just start a new one and see what sort of feedback there is to it.

 

Prayer has been a sticking point with me since going ex-C many years ago. My oldest brother is a die-hard atheist, and he told me once that he still prays every now and then to the god he doesn't even believe in. I can't say as I have ever done that myself, but I guess that I can conceed that prayer is probably a lot more for the benefit of the person praying than thinking something will actually happen from it. Lets see if I can put together a jumble of thoughts on the subject into something coherent, and see what other people think.

 

Prayer to god is always answered, but sometimes god says no. It seems to me that one could pray to a rock and get pretty much the same results. When a prayer gets "answered" the odds are pretty much the same no matter who you were praying to. 12-step programs rely on the belief that something exists that is larger than oneself; I don't believe that the odds for recovery in 12-step are related in any way to what sort of "god" the person chooses, as much as the resolve of the individual. I believe Moslems pray also ...if prayer were so all-powerful, how come thier prayers have the same odds of being answered as a christians?! I can't find a shred of VALID statistical proof that sick christians that are prayed for have a higher recovery rate than people who aren't prayed for, or prayed for to a different god.

so:

a.) the prayer does nothing except maybe help a person who feels a little bit helpless feel like there is something a little larger than themselves working on it. Prayer is therefore more for peace of mind than the desire for a positive outcome.

b.) god is answering the prayers for the sick christian, but in order to keep the stats balanced, when he hears a larger amount of prayers, or more sincere prayers, then he takes away from somebody else to keep the balance sheet straight.

 

One might say that god has a plan we don't know about, then how can one logically believe that prayer was the cause of the good fortune? How could one accept that he is actually swayed by a few prayers when he already knows the plan in advance?

 

I dunno. I de-converted back in the 80's, and there was a lot of anger involved. My life wasn't going the way I wanted it, and I blamed god for it. Ironicly, my life didn't change for the better until I let go of that anger, dropped the entire "god-concept," and took control of my own life. I got a better job, my pay tripled, I found a better class of friends and finally got into a relationship that wasn't crippled from the start. I did all of this without prayer, and worked my ass off to get it. My life isn't perfect, but I've had a lot of good and a lot of bad happen, just like everyone else. I've had times when I was really strapped financially, and suddenly had a lump of money fall into my lap. A christian might call that a miracle. I also had times I was strapped and had to be late on a bill or two. I kinda see it as like a lottery, if you play it enough, eventually you are going to win a little bit. It's kinda like a "lucky charm," the odds are pretty much the same, but we tend to focus on the good more than the bad to give it credence. There are tons of studies out there about superstitions & "lucky" items ...I kind of relate those studies into the same realm as prayer.

 

Oh well, it might not be that organized, but I'll stop here for now and throw it out for debate...

[BuddhistCommunist]

To tell you the truth, there have been studies that when very ill people were prayed for in any religion, or whether they knew about it or not, got better than those that weren't. even without a God, prayer is still very psycologically powerful.

[Ssel]

You might want to put it on a back shelf in your mind that “prayer” has two meanings in religion. What I call the “Santa-Claus Christian” who understands the word “prayer” to mean that he is to plead with God to intervene in his life (or another’s) so as to improve things a bit. But less common in the population are those who understand what such things are really about.

 

I refer to him as a Santa-Claus Christian because he is on a similar level in his understanding of Christianity as a child who believes that Christmas is about Santa-Claus coming down the chimney. And he generally gets similar results. His Santa-Claus prayer is only answered by those who might hear it and sneakily intervene so as to help him have hope and/or faith.

 

The word “pray”, the related to the word ”prey” in that they not only sound the same, but they both mean to “seek”. To “pray to God” means to “seek of God for guidance”, more specifically to humbly seek of God (meaning open-minded).

 

A person can pray to a dictionary. To pray to a dictionary doesn’t mean that you expect some magic to come forth and save you in some way. It means that you open-mindedly seek of the dictionary for new information. Of course the dictionary is limited. A science student prays to articles on science. The point to praying to God is to seek of that which is least limited of all.

 

There are 3 distinct stages to growth in the issue of praying, Christmas, and Christianity;

 

Prayer

1) Child – pray to an imagined God for help

2) Disheartened - to find out that their God was merely imagined and praying does very little if anything.

3) Maturity – realizing that to pray means to humble seek for guidance to that which offers the most hope.

 

Christmas

1) Child – Christmas is about Santa Claus bringing toys to “good” children.

2) Disheartened – discovering that Santa is no more than parents, relatives, or neighbors who are trying to con children into being good while selling toys for their own greed for money

3) Maturity – realizing that Christmas was really about spreading a base effort toward giving, forgiveness, reigning in conflict, and uniting for the general benefit of all.

 

Christianity

1) Child – God and Jesus are ghostly watchers and all powerful spirits which will intervene for sake of the “good” people

2) Disheartened – discovering that their image of God can’t be real and is only there so as to con people into behaving and yielding power to selfish churches.

3) Maturity – realizing the higher understanding of scriptures and how such understanding causes man to progress to a higher level of health, less conflict on lower levels, and joy for all.

 

Which level are YOU at currently?

[greasemonkey]

"To tell you the truth, there have been studies that when very ill people were prayed for in any religion, or whether they knew about it or not, got better than those that weren't. even without a God, prayer is still very psycologically powerful."

 

Hey BC!

 

Thanks for reminding me of that, I have seen some of those studies. I do agree with the psychological power of prayer & think I meant to be alluding to that with my example of 12-step programs. I didn't do a very good job of formulating a coherrent argument, but that is good in its way because hopefully we can develop it as we go.

 

I think I was sort of trying to monopolize on the X-ian end of the spectrum after reading some of the responses on the other thread, but there's no reason to limit it.

 

Hi Ssel! Thanks for joining in! Your response is a little bit closer to what I had in mind. Your "Santa Claus" analogy is one I am familiar with, and on the other thread when they were speaking about the "I know prayer is real because I prayed & it worked!" line of thought was what stuck me with the idea of a new thread. That particular line has never held much water with me, and is mostly traced exactly to some of the maturity levels you pointed out. I also hear not to judge the religion by the followers, but by the bible, and I don't really agree much with that either. I've yet to meet a buhhdist who was a real jerk (although I'm sure they are there), so guess I've somewhat adopted a view that I *do* tend to judge religion by its followers. I realize the problems inherrent with that view though; if I lived in a place that 90% of the people were buhhdist, then the odds would be better.

 

The maturity levels work in more things than prayer, though. When *I* was able to let go of anger, and stop trying to "get even" with god, then I was able to start rising above the lot in life that I had set myself up for. According to definitions in religious tolerance.org, I would be an agnostic humanist, so I'll try to keep consistent on a humanist level. I reserve the right to be inconsistent though...

 

I don't know you enough to make any sort of judgements or assumptions about your faith, so excuse me if I err. The question would seem to be moving towards "why does christianity have anything more to offer than any other religion?" I would guess that average Buhhdists tend to reach a more mature level of prayer before average Christians (and pardon the arbitrary lack of or prescence of caps, its not meant as a slight to anything but grammar & good typing skills) since they tend toward more collectivist mentality whereas Christianity tends to work on a more individualistic level (in practice). It was partially study of the annalects of confucius that sort of led me to a little bit more mature worldview, and without any promises of heaven or threats of hell involved.

 

I gave my dad a copy of the annalects, and although he never read it and he was sure it had some wisdom, he refused to read it merely because it wasn't the words of Jesus. How much sense does that make?!

 

How can one utterly accept the X-ian way as correct when so many don't even bother to look critically at the alternatives?

[Cerise]

Christianity

1) Child – God and Jesus are ghostly watchers and all powerful spirits which will intervene for sake of the “good” people

2) Disheartened – discovering that their image of God can’t be real and is only there so as to con people into behaving and yielding power to selfish churches.

3) Maturity – realizing the higher understanding of scriptures and how such understanding causes man to progress to a higher level of health, less conflict on lower levels, and joy for all.

 

Which level are YOU at currently?

 

Ahem. Here is my equation for this little statement Ssel: understanding of scripture = joy for all = bovine feces.

 

[Mythra]

Are you referring to this, Cerise?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Ssel]

Ahem. Here is my equation for this little statement Ssel: understanding of scripture = joy for all = bovine feces.

 

Haha ...cute ...but then, that would place you into the (2) stage, wouldn't it, not realizing that there IS a third yet. And I have to admit, as long as SO many Santa Claus Christians keep insisting that his image of God is what it is all about, then it IS hard to see above the fuse and clouds.

 

[greasemonkey]

And I have to admit, as long as SO many Santa Claus Christians keep insisting that his image of God is what it is all about, then it IS hard to see above the fuse and clouds.

 

Thanks Ssel

 

One of my best friends at my work is Christian, and like you, I have utter respect for his beliefs because at least he lives what he believes. I guess it can't be too hard for you to imagine why a lot of us here don't get impressed easily. Thanks for impressing me!

[Mythra]

I agree that there are stages. I would respectfully disagree with regards to their order. I would place them something like this:

 

1. Child: The bible is literally true. The true word of God. Every word God-breathed.

 

2. Disenchanted: Some of this doesn't make sense. It violates my sense of what I believe God to be.

 

3. Maturity: Searching for the higher meaning in the bible, still thinking that there must be some good to be found there. Some glimpse of God.

 

4. Arriving at Rational Realism: The Bible was written by men. Men who sometimes had a very warped way of looking at the world. Men who were shaped and enveloped in religious concepts during a tumultuous time in the history of mankind. Highly superstitious men who wrote things in order to advance their personal agendas and individual ideologies.

 

 

So, you see, Ssel - you are only one step away from being an enlightened individual.

 

 

It seems to me that one could pray to a rock and get pretty much the same results. When a prayer gets "answered" the odds are pretty much the same no matter who you were praying to.

 

greasemonkey: I had a burning in my bosom when I read this. My spirit confirms it's truthfulness..

 

Nice.

 

ps: If you can't find a rock handy, crossing your fingers works good, too.

[Cerise]

Ahem. Here is my equation for this little statement Ssel: understanding of scripture = joy for all = bovine feces.

 

Haha ...cute ...but then, that would place you into the (2) stage, wouldn't it, not realizing that there IS a third yet. And I have to admit, as long as SO many Santa Claus Christians keep insisting that his image of God is what it is all about, then it IS hard to see above the fuse and clouds.

 

 

I don't need YOU to label ME. As far as I am concerned you are just as bad as daniel in your arrogant assumption (ASS-umptions) that you think we haven't "realized" something that you have intimate, secret, and necessary knowledge of. Stage this.

[NotBlinded]

Ahem. Here is my equation for this little statement Ssel: understanding of scripture = joy for all = bovine feces.

 

Haha ...cute ...but then, that would place you into the (2) stage, wouldn't it, not realizing that there IS a third yet. And I have to admit, as long as SO many Santa Claus Christians keep insisting that his image of God is what it is all about, then it IS hard to see above the fuse and clouds.

 

It may be helpful to lower the arrogance a little if you wish to make a point. Just a thought.

[Ro-bear]

To tell you the truth, there have been studies that when very ill people were prayed for in any religion, or whether they knew about it or not, got better than those that weren't. even without a God, prayer is still very psycologically powerful.

 

The last I heard, these studies had been discredited. I don't even think most fundies are citing them, nowadays.

[Max]

To tell you the truth, there have been studies that when very ill people were prayed for in any religion, or whether they knew about it or not, got better than those that weren't. even without a God, prayer is still very psycologically powerful.

 

This is the placebo effect. Same as a sugar pill.

[Ssel]

I apologize to all for my appearance of arrogance, I know that my social skills are not what they should be. I very resoundingly lectured daniel on his insistence that arrogance was proper. One of my problems is that I ran out of questions concerning this subject of religion versus rationale. Except that instead of finding that all of the religions were just misled fools, I found that they began very intelligently, but then got carried by people who mistook many things and made many mistakes.

 

"Humility is the tight wire between the mountains of wisdom"

 

[Ssel]

Thanks Ssel

 

One of my best friends at my work is Christian, and like you, I have utter respect for his beliefs because at least he lives what he believes. I guess it can't be too hard for you to imagine why a lot of us here don't get impressed easily. Thanks for impressing me!

 

..and thank you even MORE, it isn't easy to face so many who have been smothered in a cloud of confusion and now are angry at the entire mess. One has to close their eyes to what others are saying and climb up above the clouds. Science and the religions are not really opposed, merely at odds.

 

Atheist = Someone who has been SO smothered by the misconceptions and ramblings of the Santa Claus Christian, that he can't but believe it has all been merely a hoax.

[Mythra]

I apologize to all for my appearance of arrogance, I know that my social skills are not what they should be. I very resoundingly lectured daniel on his insistence that arrogance was proper. One of my problems is that I ran out of questions concerning this subject of religion versus rationale. Except that instead of finding that all of the religions were just misled fools, I found that they began very intelligently, but then got carried by people who mistook many things and made many mistakes.

"Humility is the tight wire between the mountains of wisdom"

 

OK, you just moved up about six notches on my list. Looks like you're okay.

 

Nice to see someone who has some strong beliefs, and yet is also able to see other's points of view or accept some critisizm without gettin all bent.

 

Cheers.

[Poonis]

prayer, like all religious mannerisms and practices, is purely psychological appeasement of the individual destiny of death. We will all die. You will die. I will die. There is no getting over this. The inevitability of death is what makes people do foolish things.

 

One prays that another gets better. Why? Getting better is the opposite of getting worse, which steers closer to death. One prays for a million dollars. Why? Obtaining a million dollars would distract the inevitability of death.

 

Prayer is a distraction. Few wish to ponder all that leads to death.

[Poonis]

I apologize to all for my appearance of arrogance, I know that my social skills are not what they should be. I very resoundingly lectured daniel on his insistence that arrogance was proper. One of my problems is that I ran out of questions concerning this subject of religion versus rationale. Except that instead of finding that all of the religions were just misled fools, I found that they began very intelligently, but then got carried by people who mistook many things and made many mistakes.

 

"Humility is the tight wire between the mountains of wisdom"

 

 

"A witty saying proves nothing."

-Voltaire

[Checkmate]

I refer to him as a Santa-Claus Christian because he is on a similar level in his understanding of Christianity as a child who believes that Christmas is about Santa-Claus coming down the chimney. And he generally gets similar results. His Santa-Claus prayer is only answered by those who might hear it and sneakily intervene so as to help him have hope and/or faith.

Hello? Did someone mention my arch-nemesis, Santy Claus?

 

Ssel, thanks for this visual! It brought back MANY humorous memories of "prayer circles", and "prayer requests" left in baskets at the pulpit. Memories of Christians "offering up their prayers to God", when in reality they were letting one another know what needs they had, so that PEOPLE could fulfill these requests. (And THEN give "God" the glory for answering!)

 

When I was in the Charismatic circles, I fought a daily losing battle to get Christians to keep their prayers SECRET, as "Jesus" instructed in Matthew 6. He called such prayers "hypocritical", and warned that such public spectacles already HAD their reward if they were seen by men.

 

Hey! Maybe THAT is why "prayers" aren't getting answered by "God"? "The secret of prayer, is prayer in secret." Since Christians insist on public prayer, "God" won't answer positively.

[greasemonkey]

The last I heard, these studies had been discredited. I don't even think most fundies are citing them, nowadays.

 

Hi Ro-bear! I really enjoyed your posts on the pledge. (I still stand, but say the original)

 

I'm not sure that they have been utterly discredited, but the fundies have a hard time trying to use evidence that doesn't show them as exclusive. It's a little difficult to point at themselves when the stats were mostly the same for all the religions. I'll have to do a little homework on that...

 

I did have a fundy tell me a while back that "good, bible teaching X-ians were 95% less likey to get divorced." I laughed at him! I asked him who was qualified to make the distinction between who was good and bad?! Either they were choosing thier own test group, or they had God on a computer somewhere...

 

He couldn't give me a response.

[greasemonkey]

4. Arriving at Rational Realism: The Bible was written by men. Men who sometimes had a very warped way of looking at the world. Men who were shaped and enveloped in religious concepts during a tumultuous time in the history of mankind. Highly superstitious men who wrote things in order to advance their personal agendas and individual ideologies.

 

Hi Mythra

 

I'm not sure I completely agree with this, but only for semantic reasons. That isn't to be saying I don't AGREE with the statement, only that the jump to rational realism generally takes place after a big jolt to ones worldview. Kinda like most alcoholics can function nominally normally in society, it generally takes hitting some sort of "bottom" before they are moved to change. I regard religion in a lot of the same light.

 

And Ssel:

 

Atheist = Someone who has been SO smothered by the misconceptions and ramblings of the Santa Claus Christian, that he can't but believe it has all been merely a hoax.

 

Sorry, respectfully, but I can't buy into this. It's a little bit too exclusive to your worldview; just because we opt out doesn't mean we are the ones with the misconception. Although emotionally charged when a lot of us left, in my case it was a vigorous logical approach & heavy study of history through critical eyes that affirmed my decision. I jumped through hoops with a lot of other religions before I finally grounded where I am today.

 

As I said before, I tend to judge a religion more by its followers. I'm extremely impressed by buhhdist theology, but even though I have done much study & respect the teachings even more than x-ian, I'm still not a buhhdist. Just because we might have had some misconceptions doesn't mean we are wrong. IOW, just because the first two options are wrong doesn't mean the third one has to be correct. Sometimes the answer can be "none of the above."

 

Hey Grinch (loved your movie)!

 

Ssel, thanks for this visual! It brought back MANY humorous memories of "prayer circles", and "prayer requests" left in baskets at the pulpit. Memories of Christians "offering up their prayers to God", when in reality they were letting one another know what needs they had, so that PEOPLE could fulfill these requests. (And THEN give "God" the glory for answering!)

 

Heh! Yeah, in psychology they call this a "self-fulfilling prophecy." How one manages to do the work themselves, but then give someone else credit for it is beyond me. It's beneficial in a social context though, so I try not to knock them too much for it.

[All Gods Fail]

Atheist = Someone who has been SO smothered by the misconceptions and ramblings of the Santa Claus Christian, that he can't but believe it has all been merely a hoax.

 

Oh Ssel, why must you pile troubles on our non-believing heads? Is there no other reason we can doubt god exists?

[Ouroboros]

Praying could be good for you if it is done in a meditative way, since some research points to that meditation builds the brain:

 

Meditation builds up the brain

by Alison Motluk

 

...

Atheist = Someone who has been SO smothered by the misconceptions and ramblings of the Santa Claus Christian, that he can't but believe it has all been merely a hoax.

I would say that is a huge misunderstanding. And I've been trying to explain why I lost faith so many times to the visiting Christians on this site, that I have no reason to do so again. But there were no Christians that made me lose my faith. I wasn't angry at God or religion. I only realized that the Bible God, Christian God, didn't exist as it has been interpreted and explained to me. Sure there could be a different God somewhere, but not one that harmonize with the "Holy Book".

[Ssel]

I would say that is a huge misunderstanding.

I meant it to be a little "tongue-n-cheek"

[Ouroboros]

I would say that is a huge misunderstanding.

I meant it to be a little "tongue-n-cheek"

Ooops! Okay. Same thing happens to me now and then.