I Came Out To My Former Pastor - Continuation (In Person Meeting)

[jblueep]

Here is the basic background story:

 

About a month ago, I told my very close friend "P" (my former pastor's wife) that I was an atheist. After a week of hearing nothing in reply, I stopped by the church to say hi to P as a good will gesture, and the following morning P sent me a "Dear John" email telling me that we could no longer be friends.

 

Here is the previous thread with all the details if you are interested:

 

http://www.ex-christ...-former-pastor/

 

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Picking up the story...

---------------------------------

 

The day after receiving the "Dear John" email from P, my wife (2honest) sent P her own coming out letter (http://www.ex-christ...dformer-pastor/). P responded positively to 2honest's letter, so I sent the following email to P the same day:

 

Hi P,

 

I read your kind email response to [2honest] and I appreciate it. I know that you love us, and I trust that you know we both love you.

 

I typed up a big response, but then I thought..."we should just have coffee". I think it's better if you're looking in my eyes

 

What do you think?

 

J

 

I thought that if we could just sit down, she would at least be able to lose the offense and we could part as friends in peace. One week passed with no response at all from her (she also stopped communicating with 2honest at this point). So, after a week I sent the following email to P:

 

I don't understand, but I accept it. I love you. Be free my friend. I'll leave the light on for you.

 

At this point, I really, really wanted to just let go. But honestly, it just continued to torment me. I couldn't understand how someone that I had given so much of myself to (100% acceptance and support for three years) could just decide that I was dead to her so easily.

 

Then 2honest and I listened to her sermon last Sunday. It turns out that P and her husband have been preaching "about us" for the previous four weeks...not by name, but there was no mistaking the the subject matter. They preached about faith, losing faith, how to hold on to faith, etc. It was a clear effort on their part to cope as well as to limit the damage to the people in the church that were aware of our apostasy.

 

Anyway, in her most recent sermon, P got choked up when saying that "the invisible world is more real to me than the visible one, and no one can take that away from me". As ridiculous as that is, I "got it" and saw one more chance to try and get at least some closure on the relationship, so I sent the following email to P early this week:

 

Hi P,

 

I listened to your sermon from Sunday. I may be way off, but the part where you choked up about how real the invisible world is to you and that no one could take it away from you really got to me.

 

If that was a reference to our recent communications, then I want to apologize that my emails left that impression. I know how real it is to you, and I never intended my words as an attempt to to take anything from you. I respect your reality because you are my friend and I used to share that reality with you. I get it.

 

I really was just trying to see if there was something more to your place in faith then I previously understood. I hope that make sense.

 

I love you and I'm here if you ever want to reengage our friendship and communication.

 

J

 

Again, there was no response from P. This was now affecting me much more than I expected. I needed a resolution. Thankfully this last Friday, P's husband (the pastor, who has been completely missing and silent since the day we left the church last September) sent me a text asking me if we could speak for a minute. I agreed, but said it needed to be in person, and we agreed to met at the local Starbucks.

 

Once at Starbucks, he started out the conversation by stating the reason he wanted to meet me was to help explain P's actions over the previous months. It was exactly what I thought, in that P took my questions as personal rejection and simply couldn't handle it. He had advised her not to read or respond to my emails. He said that she didn't mean what I thought with the "Dear John" email. He said that P meant (and he agreed) that because we weren't Christians anymore, they could not have a "deep" relationship with us. While I know we won't have a relationship with them going forward, I still pointed out the absurdity of their statements, and noted how that outlook severely limits them and other Christians.

 

We then had a meandering two hour conversation about Christianity, where I would ask simple questions (absence of signs and wonders, biblical contradictions, historical references, outsider test of faith, etc). I wasn't out the "get" him and I was loving and patient in my responses to his points. He stuttered and stammered through his responses to my points. It was painfully obvious to both of us that he had nothing compelling to say. In the sweetest way he could, he told me that our (my and 2honest's) problem was basically a lack of faith. That was laughable given our decades of commitment and I think it was embarrassing to him when I easily refuted that.

 

Near the end of our conversation, P sent him a text saying that she was nearby. He picked up his phone and called P in my presence in an attempt to coax her into coming over and seeing me for a minute. When she resisted, I told him that she didn't have to come if she wasn't ready, but to his credit he persisted and P finally agreed to come.

 

When P showed up, she burst into tears immediately. I made her sit by me, put my arm around her, and let her cry. She was really concerned that her "being real" with us over the years had some how poisoned us to Christianity. I assured her that nothing she had done or not done had led to our de-conversion. I ended the conversation by thanking them and telling them that they "had shown us the best version of Christianity that there is, but it just wasn't enough".

 

Having this conversation was the resolution I needed, and the turmoil and resulting depression of this whole matter is now gone

[Positivist]

 

J, this was a wild ride reading this! My heart aches for so many things--lost relationships, you being the 'bigger person', your pastors struggling with their faith (so obvious), and the burden P places on herself to be everyone's human Bible/version of Christ. I think P is destined for a mental health disaster.

 

This has got to be one of the saddest and most telling things I have read on this site for a long, long time.

 

So very, very sad.

[jblueep]

...I think P is destined for a mental health disaster...

 

Unfortunately, I think that ship sailed awhile back. I think the kingdom/grace/postmodern version of Christianity is an especially dangerous one, and P views herself as a champion of it.

 

...So very, very sad.

 

Definitely, because P could have been an amazing asset to the world had her journey not been derailed by her faith. Maybe she still can, but she is so deep that I think there is no escape for her.

[Positivist]

I think the kingdom/grace/postmodern version of Christianity is an especially dangerous one.

.....

Definitely, because P could have been an amazing asset to the world had her journey not been derailed by her faith. Maybe she still can, but she is so deep that I think there is no escape for her.

 

This.

 

Yes, it is incredibly dangerous. My life is testament to the perils of believing this way.

 

As for me, my life was nearly hijacked completely by my faith. I started following my intuition and my life was redeemed gradually.

 

I think P is in too deep. She would have nothing if she left. She sounds like she knows this and is in the brink of disaster. So sad.....

[London]

Wow, that was really hard to go through. I am so glad you found a comfortable end to this. It's too bad the friendship needed to end.

[TrueFreedom]

I'm sorry for the lost friendships but happy for the resolution.

 

Thanks for sharing the ugly details.

[Awesomeness]

...I think P is destined for a mental health disaster...

 

Unfortunately, I think that ship sailed awhile back. I think the kingdom/grace/postmodern version of Christianity is an especially dangerous one, and P views herself as a champion of it.

 

...So very, very sad.

 

Definitely, because P could have been an amazing asset to the world had her journey not been derailed by her faith. Maybe she still can, but she is so deep that I think there is no escape for her.

 

Honest question here and no intent to derail, but can you expound on kingdom/grace/postmodern a little bit? I was never really aware of current labels when I was a christian, but I am trying to catch up

[pratt]

well,,, the only good thing about the whole thing is there is a closure,,,,

 

it would appear they REALLY treasure that friendship that has become "unacceptable" in THEIR christian worldview.

 

i believe it is difficult for them and you folks to close a chapter of religious divide in this case,,,,,

 

give them room, and leave the light on, but dont't expect them to knock on your door anytime soon

[marmot]

I definitely understand not being able to have as "deep" of a relationship. When you believe that you are a group of select people that know the most profound truth in the universe and you will someday be in heaven with an omnipotent deity, it tends to make you ingroup those that share your views. Forming real, authentic friendships with non-believers without thinking they were going to hell was one of the more important steps in my deconversion.

[blackpudd1n]

I have been following you and 2H's journey with this friend of yours with interest, as I wait for a response from my own former pastor.

 

I know what you mean by it having more of an impact on you than you anticipated. I kind of feel like I should have expected to be rejected because I've had a pretty easy ride of it so far, since I started coming out to people. But it does hurt, to think that you had something more of a friendship, and then to see that go down the sink because your view of your beliefs changed.

 

I don't know how to proceed in my own situation. I'm still thinking about it. But I think I'm going to need closure, just like you did.

[jblueep]

Yes, it is incredibly dangerous. My life is testament to the perils of believing this way.

 

Honest question here and no intent to derail, but can you expound on kingdom/grace/postmodern a little bit? I was never really aware of current labels when I was a christian, but I am trying to catch up

 

Hi Awesomeness,

 

My definition of kingdom/grace/postmodern Christianity would be something like this:

 

This type of Xian focuses on "the finished work of Jesus", i.e. "Christ in you as you"...meaning that you are fully justified by the death of Jesus on the cross ("who you are" is what is important, not "what you do"). It's a focus on the "new covenant" (faith) as opposed to the "old convenant" (works). It has a focus on signs and wonders, i.e. modern day healing and "encounters" with the holy spirit. Add in the postmodern aspects, and it's kind of like a cross between charismatic and hippie.

 

It's a really positive and therefore attractive form of Xianity, especially if you came out of a "hell fire and brimestone" background. That's what makes it so dangerous IMO.

 

It's tough to explain...

 

Positivist, you want to give it shot?

[jblueep]

I have been following you and 2H's journey with this friend of yours with interest, as I wait for a response from my own former pastor.

 

I know what you mean by it having more of an impact on you than you anticipated. I kind of feel like I should have expected to be rejected because I've had a pretty easy ride of it so far, since I started coming out to people. But it does hurt, to think that you had something more of a friendship, and then to see that go down the sink because your view of your beliefs changed.

 

I don't know how to proceed in my own situation. I'm still thinking about it. But I think I'm going to need closure, just like you did.

 

I hoping for the best in your situation Pudd, but my guess would be that the best you can hope for is an agreement to disagree. It sucks that Xians world view is so limited as to exclude non believers, but that's the nature of it I think. Keep us updated with your story

[blackpudd1n]

Can I have a shot at the kingdom/grace/post-modern christianity? I came from similar theology in pentecostalism.

 

I personally think the whole concept is dangerous because it tends to breed a certain radicalism and extremism. Followers look for signs in every single little thing, and as a result tend to make detrimental decisions, thinking that they are being led by the holy spirit and the will of god.

 

It's like you lose all ability to reason, and anything and everything can be justified- good and bad. It breeds irresponsibility in the person, and a self-imposed helplessness. The concept is reckless- it's all-or-nothing, you're-either-with-us-or-against-us mentality. You don't do anything "just for fun"- everything you do, every relationship you have, must be for god. You are expected to sacrifice yourself for "the kingdom". And your whole life centres around doing god's will. It seems nice on the outside, but it's very, very oppressive.

 

Did I get that right, Positivist and J?

[Positivist]

Honest question here and no intent to derail, but can you expound on kingdom/grace/postmodern a little bit?

My definition of kingdom/grace/postmodern Christianity would be something like this:

~~~

It's a really positive and therefore attractive form of Xianity, especially if you came out of a "hell fire and brimestone" background. That's what makes it so dangerous IMO.

 

Positivist, you want to give it shot?

Sure. My experience focuses more on the postmodern angle to Christianity, not the "Kingdom" piece (which would have sent me running....lol). The churches I attended were more like para-church organizations than churches. Post-modern Christianity places less emphasis on rigid definitions of truth. It esteems experience over reason (clearly, this is handy…), subjectivity over objectivity (again, handy!), spirituality over religion, and images over words (because words are limiting), to name a few. Biblical truth, fraught with interpretative difficulties, takes on a more fluid and malleable form. Instead of fighting over what is true, the truth is left to each individual to discern. There is a “slippery slope” effect here: since truth is all relative, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine how much weight to give Biblical literalism and how much weight to give spiritual experience.

 

Brian MacLaren is one of the prominent leaders in postmodern Christianity. His book, “A Generous Orthodoxy” is a beautiful and freeing articulation of this perspective. However, it also smacks of so-called liberalism. So, the lines blur between these expressions of Christianity. Brian MacLaren states that the Christian faith should be understood as a story, with ourselves as participants in that story. He views the Bible not as a prescriptive document, but as a community library.

 

My two cents!

[jblueep]

Did I get that right, Positivist and J?

 

Sure. My experience focuses more on the postmodern angle to Christianity, not the "Kingdom" piece (which would have sent me running....lol). The churches I attended were more like para-church organizations than churches. Post-modern Christianity places less emphasis on rigid definitions of truth. It esteems experience over reason (clearly, this is handy…), subjectivity over objectivity (again, handy!), spirituality over religion, and images over words (because words are limiting), to name a few. Biblical truth, fraught with interpretative difficulties, takes on a more fluid and malleable form. Instead of fighting over what is true, the truth is left to each individual to discern. There is a “slippery slope” effect here: since truth is all relative, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine how much weight to give Biblical literalism and how much weight to give spiritual experience.

 

Brian MacLaren is one of the prominent leaders in postmodern Christianity. His book, “A Generous Orthodoxy” is a beautiful and freeing articulation of this perspective. However, it also smacks of so-called liberalism. So, the lines blur between these expressions of Christianity. Brian MacLaren states that the Christian faith should be understood as a story, with ourselves as participants in that story. He views the Bible not as a prescriptive document, but as a community library.

 

My two cents!

 

The version we experienced would be much closer to Positivist's than Pudd's, but that goes to show you how many versions there are of each version of each version of each version...ridiculous!

[2Honest]

Can I have a shot at the kingdom/grace/post-modern christianity? I came from similar theology in pentecostalism.

 

I personally think the whole concept is dangerous because it tends to breed a certain radicalism and extremism. Followers look for signs in every single little thing, and as a result tend to make detrimental decisions, thinking that they are being led by the holy spirit and the will of god.

 

It's like you lose all ability to reason, and anything and everything can be justified- good and bad. It breeds irresponsibility in the person, and a self-imposed helplessness. The concept is reckless- it's all-or-nothing, you're-either-with-us-or-against-us mentality. You don't do anything "just for fun"- everything you do, every relationship you have, must be for god. You are expected to sacrifice yourself for "the kingdom". And your whole life centres around doing god's will. It seems nice on the outside, but it's very, very oppressive.

 

I highlighted the elements we had in our former church/version of Christianity. There was a LOT of emphasis on seeing the holy spirit's activity in everything. There wasn't necessarily instruction given to look for "signs", but that is the way people lived (including me). It wasn't really about being afraid of missing god's will, as much as believing he was constantly involved in your life. When you believe he is a real "person" who you have a relationship with, you must look for any sign that he's actively participating with you in order to maintain that belief. This definitely lead many people we knew to be irresponsible and make really stupid decisions...especially financially. And yes, it totally causes people to lose their sense of personal power and capability. That's one of the biggest things I am still struggling with. I've lived my whole life believing I was incapable to do anything on my own and that I had to lean on god and trust him for absolutely everything. That mindset makes it so impossible for people to break free. They believe without god they will just fall apart.

 

 

Sure. My experience focuses more on the postmodern angle to Christianity, not the "Kingdom" piece (which would have sent me running....lol). The churches I attended were more like para-church organizations than churches. Post-modern Christianity places less emphasis on rigid definitions of truth. It esteems experience over reason (clearly, this is handy…), subjectivity over objectivity (again, handy!), spirituality over religion, and images over words (because words are limiting), to name a few. Biblical truth, fraught with interpretative difficulties, takes on a more fluid and malleable form. Instead of fighting over what is true, the truth is left to each individual to discern. There is a “slippery slope” effect here: since truth is all relative, it becomes increasingly difficult to determine how much weight to give Biblical literalism and how much weight to give spiritual experience.

 

Yeah, we definitely had a form of this version, too. When I look back at it now it's like we just had this big hodge-podge of concepts and beliefs that were all thrown together. But then, that's really what all churches are, isn't it? It's so true that god looks like the person who's looking for him...we create him in our own image.

[Positivist]

It wasn't really about being afraid of missing god's will, as much as believing he was constantly involved in your life. When you believe he is a real "person" who you have a relationship with, you must look for any sign that he's actively participating with you in order to maintain that belief.

 

OMG. Wasn't that just the

Biggest Mistake!

 

Glad we've come to our senses and realized that God does not care about the color of socks we choose, and sometimes the toaster does do random patterns on the bread.....

[Awesomeness]

Thanks y'all. I guess I am looking to better define and qualify my own experiences, but don't yet have the requisite vocabulary the church I came out of was charismatic, but strict on biblical interpretation. So maybe some sort of hybrid? They were heavy into the influence of the holy spirit in literally every decision of your day, which has duly hampered my current decision making. But there was also a very rigid structure of authority and expectation of works, especially "missions."

 

Another question, how would you categorize, say Rob Bell versus Mark Driscoll? Would Bell be in the postmodern category?

 

I do google research these things also, I promise And sorry for the derail. I have been following y'alls story closely, I find the spectrum of reactions among Christians to be fascinating. I sometimes find myself hoping that you will update and tell us that they followed you in deconversion, I often think that about my own friends. Maybe we should pray for that??

[TrueFreedom]

Awesomeness, it sounds like you came from a conservative pentacostal movement. Rob Bell is postmodern, or "emergent." He's not as controversial as MacLaren, but he fits into the same category. Pete Rollins is at the most progressive (liberal) side of the post-postmodern/emerging movement. Bell is probably at the most conservative, but not near as conservative as a Driscoll or Warren.

[Peace]

I am amazed at the kindness, gentleness and maturity that you have shown them. Kind of ironic that you are 'being christlike' when they are the ones who actually believe in him!

 

It's amazing to me how much pastors supposedly know until you scratch the surface and see that they are as without answers as anyone else. P sounds like a very troubled and fragile individual. It's too bad that she can't handle having a friend who is honest and willing to love her despite differences. That's kinda heartbreaking.

[owen652]

If i could, i would thank the Lord for Rob Bell and Brian McLaren, because in my experience they were the first truckstop on the road to freethinking.

[marmot]

If i could, i would thank the Lord for Rob Bell and Brian McLaren, because in my experience they were the first truckstop on the road to freethinking.

 

Ditto! I had a heavy diet of McLaren towards the end. I also read some Yancey before that.

 

Funny story about Rob Bell. I haven't been going to church regularly for a few years, but this summer my deconversion process began to accelerate. I really turned a corner when I went home and my dad was reading "Love Wins". I took a spin with it and I got about 40 pages deep. His writing style and font were just awful and it was transparent to me how he was doing mental gymnastics to reconcile his preferred worldview with the Bible.

 

It reminded me of someone who buys a shithole fixer upper house from the 1960's. No matter why kind of repairs and refurbishments you want to do to that house, it is still going to be an ugly rambler. You might as well ditch the house and go shopping for a new one. That's what I did.

[jblueep]

I am amazed at the kindness, gentleness and maturity that you have shown them. Kind of ironic that you are 'being christlike' when they are the ones who actually believe in him!

 

Thanks Peace

[Positivist]

If i could, i would thank the Lord for Rob Bell and Brian McLaren, because in my experience they were the first truckstop on the road to freethinking.

Ditto! I had a heavy diet of McLaren towards the end.

Eek! Me too! And here I thought McLaren was saving my faith, which was already cruising at high speed toward agnosticism.

Maybe us Ex-Christians should write McLaren a thank you letter.

[Akheia]

Seriously, you two are saints. Saints. I couldn't have been as gentle or generous with P or her husband, no way in hell. "Troubled and fragile" about covers P; she's seriously one flippy-dippy, cray-cray lady. She has no business leading people in any setting. I don't think her faith is that strong if that's all it takes to reduce her to avoidance behaviors and sobbing upon confrontation. It still blows my mind that she sees herself as a valiant leader for Christ--and even moreso that she wants to go save all the lost mega-rock-stars. That's kind of funny. Good thing her husband obviously makes a barrier between her and the big bad world. If he weren't running interference, though, likely she'd have figured out she doesn't have the constitutional hardiness to handle that sort of ministry and would have gone and started a nice incense shop somewhere.

 

She's got a carefully-constructed house of cards and you two were on the bottom-most tier. What you ought to be doing now is starting up a crazy-pool--a gambling pool based on how long it takes her to end up on the 6 o'clock news.