2Honest Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 This is a really interesting look at the effects of cognitive dissonance. It's helping me to understand some things about myself, as well as people who are still believers. I think, when it comes to making major life decisions, we don't realize how much we hold on to things simply b/c we've invested so much in them. This lady also does a great job of explaining why people on "the other side" respond the way that they do when their beliefs are challenged. I think this knowledge might help us to know better how to approach people who ask us about why we left the faith. This is a 10 part series, I haven't made it through all of it yet. But so far it's been great. I'd like to hear your thoughts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 19, 2012 Share Posted May 19, 2012 This is one of the things I really like about the stock market. You can fool yourself all you want, but when you are wrong, no justification will remove the fact that your bank account got zapped. The stock market is a reality machine. You are either dead right, you are humble and careful or you get punched in the teeth. Personally, I'm rarely ever dead right, but I am humble and careful when it comes to the market. I am that way because I've been kicked in the teeth a few times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted May 19, 2012 Moderator Share Posted May 19, 2012 Thanks, 2H. Good program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStar Posted May 20, 2012 Share Posted May 20, 2012 This was really, good, very interesting and helpful. The part about religion and how to deal with that was also very interesting. Part 3: Carol Tavris on Cognitive Dissonance and Consonance 7:25 onwards is about religion. Thanks very much to the OP for making me aware of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 20, 2012 Author Share Posted May 20, 2012 This was really, good, very interesting and helpful. The part about religion and how to deal with that was also very interesting. Thanks very much to the OP for making me aware of this. You're very welcome! Glad you're enjoying it. I'm looking forward to finishing the series. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micksherlock Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 This is a really interesting look at the effects of cognitive dissonance. It's helping me to understand some things about myself, as well as people who are still believers. I think, when it comes to making major life decisions, we don't realize how much we hold on to things simply b/c we've invested so much in them. This lady also does a great job of explaining why people on "the other side" respond the way that they do when their beliefs are challenged. I think this knowledge might help us to know better how to approach people who ask us about why we left the faith. This is a 10 part series, I haven't made it through all of it yet. But so far it's been great. I'd like to hear your thoughts! Wow! Synchro! I cover Cognitive Dissonance in my book, I Am Christ, in the first chapter. I look at the founder of this theory, Leon Festinger's work with a doomsday cult and compare his findings of this group to some of the early Christian beliefs that were overturned by science and the passing of time and see how Christianity perservered despite these disconfirmations. I particularly like the following statement by Festinger: A man with a conviction is a hard man to change. Tell him you disagree and he turns away. Show him facts or figures and he questions your sources. Appeal to logic and he fails to see your point. We have all experienced the futility of trying to change a strong conviction, especially if the convinced person has some investment in his belief. We are familiar with the variety of ingenious defenses with which people protect their convictions, managing to keep them unscathed through the most devastating attacks. But man’s resourcefulness goes beyond simply protecting a belief. Suppose an individual believes something with his whole heart; suppose further that he has a commitment to this belief, that he has taken irrevocable actions because of it; finally, suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. Festinger, L., Riecken, H. W., & Schachter, S. When Prophecy fails. University of Minnesota Press. (1956). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 21, 2012 Author Share Posted May 21, 2012 suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. We have recently watched this exact thing happen to our former pastors (and close friends). We didn't get into a big debate with them, but shared enough that it should have caused them to question, at least a little. But instead they seem more "on fire for god" than ever. After hearing of our deconversion they began preaching sermons about how to "maintain faith when it doesn't make sense". It is so clearly a result of their own dissonance. It's been really helpful to learn about this stuff. It's helped me to understand that people's responses to my deconversion are not personal. They are simply trying to maintain their own sense of identity. That's cool about your book! My husband and I are planning to write one (or more) at some point. Did you self publish? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micksherlock Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 suppose that he is presented with evidence, unequivocal and undeniable evidence, that his belief is wrong: what will happen? The individual will frequently emerge, not only unshaken, but even more convinced of the truth of his beliefs than ever before. Indeed, he may even show a new fervor about convincing and converting other people to his view. We have recently watched this exact thing happen to our former pastors (and close friends). We didn't get into a big debate with them, but shared enough that it should have caused them to question, at least a little. But instead they seem more "on fire for god" than ever. After hearing of our deconversion they began preaching sermons about how to "maintain faith when it doesn't make sense". It is so clearly a result of their own dissonance. It's been really helpful to learn about this stuff. It's helped me to understand that people's responses to my deconversion are not personal. They are simply trying to maintain their own sense of identity. That's cool about your book! My husband and I are planning to write one (or more) at some point. Did you self publish? You are spot on! Identity. And where, according to most psychologists, is our identity located? In that very place religions overtly despise, yet secretly need. The ego! Everything we consciously know about this world, all of our beliefs, experiences, self-perception, Identity, it is all stored in the ego and the ego is a tough house to burn down. Needless to say, letting go of it is very difficult and very painful, hence the title of my first volume, The Crucifixion-Painful Truths. The ego houses beliefs, that become the internal Judas, if you like, that aspect of our consciousness that is not at all concerned with our wellbeing or happiness, and will sacrifice us if we, or anyone else gets in the way. Just look at all the religious wars, persecutions, martyrs, in the world, since the history of religion, which goes back to ancient Sumer, and perhaps even further, who knows_? Of course, it is not only religious beliefs that do this damage, but all belief-systems, no matter what form they take. One of the traps of deconversion, from a given religion, is that of falling into another, due to the vaccum that is created in the ego, which almost unconsciously seeks to fill that void with another artificial "Truth System." Knowledge is a useful tool in dealing with the pitfalls of life, and I am glad you have found this particular knowledge. Look all the way into it. Reading Festinger, and Aaronson is a good start, but the more you can learn about the self, the more you will become your self, rather than, as most of us can relate, an inauthentic clone of someone elses creation. The first volume of my three volume series is due to be released by Charles River Press, in Fall/Autumn this year. Thanks. Good luck with you and your husband's quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStar Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Cognitive Dissonance Quote from “Basic Psychology”, Henry Gleitman, Norton 1983 “Cognitive Consistency” ... people try to make sense of the world they encounter. But how? In effect,they do this by looking for some consistency among their own experiences and memories, and turning to other people for comparison and confirmation. If all checks out, then all well and good. But what if there is some inconsistency? The Asch study (Solomon Asch, 1956) showed what happened when there is a serious inconsistency between one’s own experiences (and the beliefs based on them) and those reported by others. But suppose the inconsistency is among the person’s own experiences, beliefs or actions? Many social psychologists believe that this will trigger some general trend to restore cognitive consistency - to reinterpret the situation so as to minimize whatever inconsistency may be there. According to Leon Festinger, this is because any perceived inconsistency among various aspects of knowledge, feelings and behavior sets up an unpleasant internal state - cognitive dissonance - which people try to reduce whenever possible (Festinger, 1957). Cognitive dissonance is not always reduced so easily. An example is provided by a study of a sect that was awaiting the end of the world. The founder of the sect announced that she had received a messsage from the “Guardians” of outer space. On a certain day, there would be an enormous flood. Only the true believers were to be saved and would be picked up at midnight of the appointed day in flying saucers. (Technology has advanced onsiderably since the days of Noah’s Ark.) On doomsday, the members of the sect huddled together, awaiting the predicted cataclysm. The arrival time of the flying saucers came and went; tension mounted as the hours went by. Finally, the leader of the sect received another message: To reward the faith of the faithful, the world was saved. Joy broke out and he believers became more faithful than ever. (Festinger, Riecken and chachter, 1956) Given the failure of a clear-cut prophecy, one might have expected the very opposite. A disconfirmation of a predicted event should presumably lead one to abandon the beliefs that produced the prediction. But cognitive dissonance theory says otherwise. By abandoning the beliefs that there are Guardians, the person who had once held this belief would have to accept a painful dissonance between her present skepticism and her past beliefs and actions. Her prior faith would now appear extemely foolish. Some members of the sect had gone to such lengths as giving up their jobs or spending their savings; such acts would lose all meaning in retrospect without the belief in the Guardians. Under the new circumstances, the dissonance was intolerable. It was reduced by a belief in the new message which bolstered the original belief. Since other members of the sect stood fast long with them, their conviction was stengthened all the more. They could now think of themselves, not as fools, but as loyal, steadfast members of a courageous little band whose faith had saved the earth. http://www.caic.org.au/general/cogdiss2.htm I'm enjoying this topic very much, I've wondered for a long time why people hold onto things which have been disproved, and now I have the answer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 A related topic, cognitive dissonance is what makes us angry or uncomfortable when our biases are challenged, so we often protect ourselves from these feelings that tell us we could be wrong through confirmation bias: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 But if you want to feel really defeated in your search for objectivity, take a few minutes and read this fascinating essay by Jacques Ellul: http://www.edgeofgra...-on-propaganda/ The average citizen wants to have opinions on domestic and foreign issues. But in reality, he can’t. He is caught between his desire and his inability, which he refuses to accept. For no citizen will believe that he is unable to have opinions. Public opinion surveys always reveal that people have opinions even on the most complicated questions, except for a small minority (usually the better informed and those who have reflected the most). The majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion. For this they need simple thoughts, elementary explanations, a “key” that will permit them to take a position, and even ready-made opinions. As most people have the desire and at the same time the incapacity to participate, they are ready to accept a propaganda that will permit them to participate, and which hides their incapacity beneath explanations, judgments, and news, enabling them to satisfy their desire without eliminating their incompetence. The individual does not want information, but only value judgments and preconceived positions. Cont... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedStar Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion. Very true! I see more of this in the media, and then see people parrot what they said, particularly if it's a legal case, too many people have opinions that are based on media spin, or just their 'feelings'. I tend not to say anything if I don't know what I'm talking about, I've been horribly wrong before and I felt really bad for the unjust judgements I made, so now I prefer to get all the information about things that I can and then form an opinion. If it's about something I haven't looked into properly I simply say that I don't know. I don't understand why so many people can't do that, surely it's better to admit you don't know instead of saying something really stupid and then being proved wrong. I once had a debate with a lady who commented on a facebook status. I challenged her opinion with facts and she went off her nut at me, then eventually admitted that she didn't know what she was talking about but still insisted on having an opinion. Some people make me want to repeatedly bash my head on my desk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Xtech Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect Dunning–Kruger effect The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer fromillusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.[1] Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others" (p. 1127).[2] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 we don't realize how much we hold on to things simply b/c we've invested so much in them. Hi 2Honest, very true. I made a lot of emotional investment in Christianity. It was only months after I started that I realised that it was flawed, well nonsense basically, but 5 years before I am now deconverting. Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
59strat Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Excellent interview, thanks for posting! I wonder how much stress builds up as a result of prolonged cognitive dissonance. It must be an added stressor to your body over a long period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 But if you want to feel really defeated in your search for objectivity, take a few minutes and read this fascinating essay by Jacques Ellul: http://www.edgeofgra...-on-propaganda/ The average citizen wants to have opinions on domestic and foreign issues. But in reality, he can’t. He is caught between his desire and his inability, which he refuses to accept. For no citizen will believe that he is unable to have opinions. Public opinion surveys always reveal that people have opinions even on the most complicated questions, except for a small minority (usually the better informed and those who have reflected the most). The majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion. For this they need simple thoughts, elementary explanations, a “key” that will permit them to take a position, and even ready-made opinions. As most people have the desire and at the same time the incapacity to participate, they are ready to accept a propaganda that will permit them to participate, and which hides their incapacity beneath explanations, judgments, and news, enabling them to satisfy their desire without eliminating their incompetence. The individual does not want information, but only value judgments and preconceived positions. Cont... Very interesting article and great video, Vigile. Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jblueep Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 The majority prefers expressing stupidities to not expressing any opinion. Very true! I see more of this in the media, and then see people parrot what they said, particularly if it's a legal case, too many people have opinions that are based on media spin, or just their 'feelings'. I tend not to say anything if I don't know what I'm talking about, I've been horribly wrong before and I felt really bad for the unjust judgements I made, so now I prefer to get all the information about things that I can and then form an opinion. If it's about something I haven't looked into properly I simply say that I don't know. I don't understand why so many people can't do that, surely it's better to admit you don't know instead of saying something really stupid and then being proved wrong. I once had a debate with a lady who commented on a facebook status. I challenged her opinion with facts and she went off her nut at me, then eventually admitted that she didn't know what she was talking about but still insisted on having an opinion. Some people make me want to repeatedly bash my head on my desk. "In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination, from authorities who have not themselves examined the questions at issue but have taken them at second-hand from other non-examiners, whose opinions about them were not worth a brass farthing." - Mark Twain 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 we don't realize how much we hold on to things simply b/c we've invested so much in them. Hi 2Honest, very true. I made a lot of emotional investment in Christianity. It was only months after I started that I realised that it was flawed, well nonsense basically, but 5 years before I am now deconverting. Adam You're very fortunate that you weren't stuck in Christianity for a lifetime. But I know that even a few years can be very difficult to break away from. I'm glad you're finding your way out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 A related topic, cognitive dissonance is what makes us angry or uncomfortable when our biases are challenged, so we often protect ourselves from these feelings that tell us we could be wrong through confirmation bias: "Unless we are willing to be wrong, we can never figure out what is right." That's the bottom line. But it is shocking how few believers are willing to be proven wrong, even in the face of stark evidence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Wow 2H. U and ur "life partner"'s quotes are amazing. I wish my memory was better so I could summon shit like that at will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2Honest Posted May 22, 2012 Author Share Posted May 22, 2012 Wow 2H. U and ur "life partner"'s quotes are amazing. I wish my memory was better so I could summon shit like that at will. Haha yeah I can fake brilliance when I'm writing and have the use of my computer to remind me of stuff. But if I try to have a conversation in person with someone I feel like I can't formulate my thoughts or remember any of the cool stuff I've been reading about. That happened to me just last night. So frustrating! J is great at those conversations, though - he remembers all the details and shit. I wish I could schedule some debates between him and the local church folk. That would be so fun to watch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mcdaddy Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I would drop a considerable amount of monopoly money to see that. It would be a bloodbath!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 But it is shocking how few believers are willing to be proven wrong, even in the face of stark evidence. I dont know I think the messages are getting through gradually. Certainly people are leaving Christianity in droves this side of the pond. One survey says the number of persons calling themselves Christian in the UK has fallen by as much as 10% in 5 years. And the number who say they have no religion is on the rise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 But it is shocking how few believers are willing to be proven wrong, even in the face of stark evidence. I dont know I think the messages are getting through gradually. Certainly people are leaving Christianity in droves this side of the pond. One survey says the number of persons calling themselves Christian in the UK has fallen by as much as 10% in 5 years. And the number who say they have no religion is on the rise. Having lived on both sides of the pond (on your side now) I'd say the differences between Europe and the US are vast. The last time I visited home I got culture shock from all the billboards, bumper stickers and Jesus shirts/hats virtually everywhere I turned. It's either gotten worse or living in Europe has caused me to forget just how bad it always was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam5 Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 The last time I visited home I got culture shock from all the billboards, bumper stickers and Jesus shirts/hats virtually everywhere I turned. It's either gotten worse or living in Europe has caused me to forget just how bad it always was. But I guess that is the rural Bible belt and not the US as a whole? I guess big cities there must be cosmopolitian in their outlook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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