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Goodbye Jesus

Euthanasia


R. S. Martin

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Probably this has been discussed before. A skeptic posted it on William Lane Craig's forums for discussion. I'll copy my response here and see if anyone has something to add to it. On Craig's forums no one responded to it but I think there are loose ends, if nothing else, that might be responded to.

 

I think you're talking about a number of different scenarios here: euthanasia, "pulling the plug", and suicide. If I am correct, these are three different legal issues.

 

In some jurisdictions, including the province of Ontario in Canada, you can have what is called a living will. I'm not sure who all has to sign it to make it legal--a lawyer has to be involved and possibly your doctor, and you personally have to be in a clear and healthy mind. I think maybe the legal term for what you wish to discuss is "heroic measures" or "extra-ordinary measures," or something to that effect.

 

In your living will, you state under what circumstances you want loved ones and medical personnel to "pull the plug," or take you off life support, or to what extent you wish "heroic measures" to be taken. Your lawyer, doctor, etc. will be able to advise you re wording.

 

I was present when my father told his nurse practitioner in the hospital that he does not want his life prolonged by such measures. My brother brought in the written document. Dad, and the rest of us, were firmly assured that the hospital would definitely respect his wishes. Open heart surgery would improve his condition but he has chosen not to go that route at his age. No doctor is pushing him, either.

 

The argument can be made that it's because he's in his late 70s. But I know of a woman who died on the operating table in her forties because she had a living will in which she said she did not want to be put on life support. In my mind, that is tragic and she might well be alive and healthy today if she had accepted a brief stint on life support. However, my point is that in this jurisdiction medical personnel seem to respect living wills. You might want to see what is available for where you live.

 

Point of interest. People don't always automatically die when taken off life support. They can continue to live for hours, days, and possibly even weeks. While it usually is effectively "pulling the plug," I don't think anyone calls it euthanasia. When a person is taken off life support, life continues to be supported in that the body is cared for. Food, clothing, hygiene, and possibly certain kinds of meds to prevent infection, continue to be provided. The person dies naturally when the body ceases to function.

 

For euthanasia, I understand a medical professional performs a very intentional act, such as administering a lethal drug, to end life. Another name for this is "assisted suicide." As you can see, this is very different from "pulling the plug," or removing a person from life support. The common factor is that both require conscious decision by loved ones and medical personnel, and in both cases the end result for the patient is usually death.

 

Suicide is when a person dies by his/her own hand. If a person still has the physical strength to commit suicide, he or she is probably nowhere near deathly ill no matter how miserable they feel. I'm not a doctor so I could be wrong about this but it seems to me that a person who is about to die after a long and debilitating illness would be too weak physically to commit suicide. Hence the call by some for euthanasia.

 

For various reasons, they don't want to end their lives while they still have the ability to do so themselves. However, needless suffering and a meaningless malingering death could be avoided if euthanasia were permitted in carefully supervised and highly regulated situations. It is imperative that all the proper infrastructure with legal and medical supervision be in place.

 

After posting I saw this from a Christian: What bothers me about this subject is that whenever it is discussed it seems that the test case is the extreme - "unbearable pain and nothing they can do to mitigate the pain"

 

My Response: I think extreme cases are probably the only cases in which euthanasia should be permissible. To me, that seems the only morally justifiable case for euthanasia.

 

Thoughts?

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For interested parties, here is the original thread. http://rfforum.websitetoolbox.com/post/Euthenasia-5876652?trail=15. I was responding to the OP, on the second page, Post 18.

 

In the original, I marked what parts of his post I thought referred to the different legal issues: euthanasia, "pulling the plug", and suicide.

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Probably this has been discussed before. A skeptic posted it on William Lane Craig's forums for discussion. I'll copy my response here and see if anyone has something to add to it. On Craig's forums no one responded to it but I think there are loose ends, if nothing else, that might be responded to.

 

 

I think you're talking about a number of different scenarios here: euthanasia, "pulling the plug", and suicide. If I am correct, these are three different legal issues.

 

In some jurisdictions, including the province of Ontario in Canada, you can have what is called a living will. I'm not sure who all has to sign it to make it legal--a lawyer has to be involved and possibly your doctor, and you personally have to be in a clear and healthy mind. I think maybe the legal term for what you wish to discuss is "heroic measures" or "extra-ordinary measures," or something to that effect.

 

In your living will, you state under what circumstances you want loved ones and medical personnel to "pull the plug," or take you off life support, or to what extent you wish "heroic measures" to be taken. Your lawyer, doctor, etc. will be able to advise you re wording.

 

I was present when my father told his nurse practitioner in the hospital that he does not want his life prolonged by such measures. My brother brought in the written document. Dad, and the rest of us, were firmly assured that the hospital would definitely respect his wishes. Open heart surgery would improve his condition but he has chosen not to go that route at his age. No doctor is pushing him, either.

 

The argument can be made that it's because he's in his late 70s. But I know of a woman who died on the operating table in her forties because she had a living will in which she said she did not want to be put on life support. In my mind, that is tragic and she might well be alive and healthy today if she had accepted a brief stint on life support. However, my point is that in this jurisdiction medical personnel seem to respect living wills. You might want to see what is available for where you live.

 

Point of interest. People don't always automatically die when taken off life support. They can continue to live for hours, days, and possibly even weeks. While it usually is effectively "pulling the plug," I don't think anyone calls it euthanasia. When a person is taken off life support, life continues to be supported in that the body is cared for. Food, clothing, hygiene, and possibly certain kinds of meds to prevent infection, continue to be provided. The person dies naturally when the body ceases to function.

 

For euthanasia, I understand a medical professional performs a very intentional act, such as administering a lethal drug, to end life. Another name for this is "assisted suicide." As you can see, this is very different from "pulling the plug," or removing a person from life support. The common factor is that both require conscious decision by loved ones and medical personnel, and in both cases the end result for the patient is usually death.

 

Suicide is when a person dies by his/her own hand. If a person still has the physical strength to commit suicide, he or she is probably nowhere near deathly ill no matter how miserable they feel. I'm not a doctor so I could be wrong about this but it seems to me that a person who is about to die after a long and debilitating illness would be too weak physically to commit suicide. Hence the call by some for euthanasia.

 

For various reasons, they don't want to end their lives while they still have the ability to do so themselves. However, needless suffering and a meaningless malingering death could be avoided if euthanasia were permitted in carefully supervised and highly regulated situations. It is imperative that all the proper infrastructure with legal and medical supervision be in place.

 

After posting I saw this from a Christian: What bothers me about this subject is that whenever it is discussed it seems that the test case is the extreme - "unbearable pain and nothing they can do to mitigate the pain"

 

My Response: I think extreme cases are probably the only cases in which euthanasia should be permissible. To me, that seems the only morally justifiable case for euthanasia.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

 

 

Oh wow, I could easily write a hundred pages on this subject. Maybe I'll do that later on <bratty grin> but, for now, I'll just give a simple answer, given the complexity of the subject.

 

And, I'll just focus specifically on what is clearly classified as assisted suicide, not euthanasia, since euthanasia can be involuntarily enforced--even though doing so is supposedly illegal all over the world. I personally wouldn't want to even begin giving doctors the right to euthanize.

 

I believe that "Pulling the Plug" would typically take place when an individual cannot survive without at least mechanical assistance. To me? I'd say their time has simply come--let them go in peace.

 

Personally, I also think that assisted suicide is a very slippery slope for a multitude of reasons that I'm too sleepy to go into at the moment.

 

However, while I may prefer to describe myself as someone that is "fighting for my life," as opposed to "terminally ill," I do very much wish that I hadn't had to move repeatedly for health and safety reasons, because at one point I was living in a state that has assisted suicide laws in place. If I wasn't living on a very limited income I'd simply move back but. . . I'm quite definitely stuck here, because I have no one to help me out, financially or otherwise. (Long ago, I had to disappear to everyone that I previously knew, and have no family to speak of anyway.)

 

So, my answer to you would have to be: while I do think that assisted suicide really is a slippery slope, I certainly wish that I had that option available to me here, because I most probably would use it after reaching my final six months.

 

As it is, however, I'm just going to have to cope with things as they are. It's just that the part of it that drives me crazy about it is that someone with the same physical status that I have that has money available to them may as well be living on a different planet.

 

They have options available to them "for the right price" that I simply just won't have.

 

So, I'll just deal with it, because I am a harsh, harsh realist--I make it a point to ALWAYS deal with "what is" instead of "how I wish things were." (I've found that it makes for a much more pleasant life--both for myself, and the people around me.) I now am living in an "ultra-christian" state, so reality is harsh indeed.

 

However, I'll freely admit that I wish that I were living in a state where I had the option of a safe compassionate way to deal with my final decisions.

 

But in a country that is overwhelmingly religious with an obsession with "following god's word," that option simply isn't available to me.

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Guest Valk0010

First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

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First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

 

 

Volk,

 

Could you please extrapolate on yout viewpoint? I'm curious about it, but I need some more information in order to understand. Thanks.smile.png

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Guest Valk0010

First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

 

 

Volk,

 

Could you please extrapolate on yout viewpoint? I'm curious about it, but I need some more information in order to understand. Thanks.smile.png

Well, in what kind of way do you want me to extrapolate?

 

At any rate. I am not sure, how many people you have ever spoken too, or how many times you yourself may have experience intense flirtation with the idea of suicide. But i have noticed in speaking to people, invariably through mental health support forums unfortunately, and with myself after the fact, that one usually gets a sense of tunnel vison about there place in the world and there future and how they feel. Again, that is only my observation, others may see it differently. They see there life as over, and that there is no future, they are always going to be depressed, fucked up whatever. But they aren't omniscience, they could have a period where things get better even if its a year from now. I know for myself, when, I would get into that state of mind, the words like the following. "Its never going to get better." Things like that entered my mind alot. Or another one would be the following. "I can't live long enough to get better, this is too much." That is a short-sighted response that at best says something ain't working you should try something else for at least the sake of others. Now contrast that with euthanisa, and a person with terminal cancer. Those people, that the suicidal person should consider, but usually don't because of there issues, are considered in the case of euthanisa. Do these people want to see, there family member suffer any longer? That is a consideration that is sometimes made. And unlike with say depression, with something like terminal cancer, you know more or less there is no chance of beating it. That is another difference.

 

This may seem cold, but its a criticism of myself(a person who has been extremely suicidal in the past) as much as anyone possibly offended.

 

Suicide is done by emotional thinking and can't really be done at least in the western sense of the word, rationally.

 

Euthanasia can and usually is done rationally and emotionally.

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First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

Haha i tried going on WCL's forums and i couldent do it.

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First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

Haha i tried going on WCL's forums and i couldent do it.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to make people do things that will give them mental break-downs or even just twitches or whatever. I just have this obsession with documenting my sources and giving people the alternative to look up the original source in its own context. That's what I want for myself so I put it out there for others in case they want it. No obligation.

 

How do I do it? I dunno. There's other atheists and exChristians there. I guess we're not all the same, not all from the same background, etc.

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First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

 

 

Volk,

 

Could you please extrapolate on yout viewpoint? I'm curious about it, but I need some more information in order to understand. Thanks.smile.png

Well, in what kind of way do you want me to extrapolate?

 

At any rate. I am not sure, how many people you have ever spoken too, or how many times you yourself may have experience intense flirtation with the idea of suicide. But i have noticed in speaking to people, invariably through mental health support forums unfortunately, and with myself after the fact, that one usually gets a sense of tunnel vison about there place in the world and there future and how they feel. Again, that is only my observation, others may see it differently. They see there life as over, and that there is no future, they are always going to be depressed, fucked up whatever. But they aren't omniscience, they could have a period where things get better even if its a year from now. I know for myself, when, I would get into that state of mind, the words like the following. "Its never going to get better." Things like that entered my mind alot. Or another one would be the following. "I can't live long enough to get better, this is too much." That is a short-sighted response that at best says something ain't working you should try something else for at least the sake of others. Now contrast that with euthanisa, and a person with terminal cancer. Those people, that the suicidal person should consider, but usually don't because of there issues, are considered in the case of euthanisa. Do these people want to see, there family member suffer any longer? That is a consideration that is sometimes made. And unlike with say depression, with something like terminal cancer, you know more or less there is no chance of beating it. That is another difference.

 

This may seem cold, but its a criticism of myself(a person who has been extremely suicidal in the past) as much as anyone possibly offended.

 

Suicide is done by emotional thinking and can't really be done at least in the western sense of the word, rationally.

 

Euthanasia can and usually is done rationally and emotionally.

 

Thank you for clarifying between the different mentalities of suicide and euthanasia.

 

Just now I looked up euthanasia on the internet. It appears that the anti-euthanasia, or right-to-life, coalitions are very emotional about it in that they think it's a slippery slope and they pull up sensational stats from all over the world to back up their claims. The problem with their stats is that they're old--anywhere from seven to fifteen years old. They don't follow up the cases to see whether changes have been made in the laws and protocol surrounding the issues. All they do is ask: Is this what we want for our country? As though alternatives were impossible. That is emotionally based thinking. And quite often it is explicitly religious thinking.

 

Quotes from a person named Mary Ellen Douglas of Campaign Life Coalition:

  • “Life is sacred from the moment of conception until natural death.”
  • “Our lives are a gift from God, they’re sacred, and it’s not our decision to end our lives,”

Source

***********

Non-Voluntary and Involuntary Euthanasia

 

Apparently, there is a legal difference between involuntary euthanasia and non-voluntary euthanasia. See Wikipedia Article (Non-voluntary euthanasia), also here (Euthanasia).

 

Quotes from "Non-Voluntary Euthanasia"

  • "Non-voluntary euthanasia (sometimes known as mercy killing) is euthanasia conducted where the explicit consent of the individual concerned is unavailable."
  • For involuntary euthanasia, "euthanasia is performed against the will of the patient."

Cases where patient consent is unavailable is infants with severe medical issues. I am thinking it might be a case that many parents would have aborted but for some reason the fetus was allowed to come to birth. It seems in the Netherlands. non-voluntary euthanasia is permissible under strict protocol. The Campaign for Life Coalition (CLC) makes it appear like it is loose and unregulated so that babies are being killed indiscriminately.

 

CLC also claims a lot of people are being killed without giving consent. Without support for this claim, I am thinking they may be double-quoting the same stats to make for a more sensational case. By "double-quoting, I mean that the severely handicapped and suffering infants that are subjected to non-voluntary euthanasia (with the consent of parents) are by definition human beings (people) being killed without giving their consent. CLC may be listing them as babies being killed and also as people being killed without giving consent; these infants would fall into both categories.

 

Of course, it could also be older people who are suffering terminal illness who are either in a coma or severely disabled mentally because of Alzheimer's or some other brain disease. CLC would have us believe it's people who are conscious and able to decide, and that they are killed because no one wants them around anymore.

 

I don't think so. The public would not stand for it. All of us realize that if it can happen to some old guy in a nursing home today it could happen to me at some point in the future.

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Guest Valk0010

Well that in a way sort of concedes my point, euthanisa is a fact based desicon. And if the conclusion follows from the evidence. Like say, I have a year left to live and by the end of it, I throwing up feces(I know of a person who had cancer and started doing that). Do I really want to face that, I know its coming. And if I can't understand that is coming, should i face that. The answer to that is no.

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In this area, a thirteen-year-old girl, Lydia Herrle, got hit and seriously injured, by a truck when she got off her school bus three weeks ago. It's a much-publicized incident and you might know about it. She continues in a coma. But not ever do I read in the news that she is not expected eventually to recover.

 

The family is Christian and obviously would not consider euthanasia but neither would I at this point even if it were legal, and I don't think anyone could morally and ethically justify it. She is very young and is making medical progress. Today's report says she has been removed from a ventilator and I guess she is now breathing on her own. It's going to be a long time before she is back to what she was but in ten years she could be a healthy young woman starting a career.

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Guest Valk0010

In this area, a thirteen-year-old girl, Lydia Herrle, got hit and seriously injured, by a truck when she got off her school bus three weeks ago. It's a much-publicized incident and you might know about it. She continues in a coma. But not ever do I read in the news that she is not expected eventually to recover.

 

The family is Christian and obviously would not consider euthanasia but neither would I at this point even if it were legal, and I don't think anyone could morally and ethically justify it. She is very young and is making medical progress. Today's report says she has been removed from a ventilator and I guess she is now breathing on her own. It's going to be a long time before she is back to what she was but in ten years she could be a healthy young woman starting a career.

I would call that a different circumstance, but say, the child had, no way of recovery and was just going to suffer needlessly, then I would be for it.
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Guest Valk0010

First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

Haha i tried going on WCL's forums and i couldent do it.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to make people do things that will give them mental break-downs or even just twitches or whatever. I just have this obsession with documenting my sources and giving people the alternative to look up the original source in its own context. That's what I want for myself so I put it out there for others in case they want it. No obligation.

 

How do I do it? I dunno. There's other atheists and exChristians there. I guess we're not all the same, not all from the same background, etc.

Well I was being lighthearted. Apologetics, particularly bad ones are annoying.
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Euthanasia is already practiced. It's called DNR's and taking someone off life support. What we seem to be "icky" about is whether we should let someone die "naturally" (apparently life support is natural) or killing them via a humane way. I am in support of euthanasia. The problem is, as I see it, is that some people are black and white on the subject. Either we are stranded with people who think we should force cancer patients, terminally ill people to suffer, "because it's natural herp der" or we should have suicide booths on street corners like Futurama.

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First question, how the hell do you hangout on WLC's forum without developing a twitch?

 

Now to the main topic, I feel euthanasia is okay, for actually a reason that helps me determine that suicide is wrong. In euthansia, the person has usually enough of a understanding of the situation to make a rational desicon, whether it being thru dealing with chronic pain, or knowing you got a short time and things are only going to get worse.

 

 

 

Volk,

 

Could you please extrapolate on yout viewpoint? I'm curious about it, but I need some more information in order to understand. Thanks.smile.png

Well, in what kind of way do you want me to extrapolate?

 

At any rate. I am not sure, how many people you have ever spoken too, or how many times you yourself may have experience intense flirtation with the idea of suicide. But i have noticed in speaking to people, invariably through mental health support forums unfortunately, and with myself after the fact, that one usually gets a sense of tunnel vison about there place in the world and there future and how they feel. Again, that is only my observation, others may see it differently. They see there life as over, and that there is no future, they are always going to be depressed, fucked up whatever. But they aren't omniscience, they could have a period where things get better even if its a year from now. I know for myself, when, I would get into that state of mind, the words like the following. "Its never going to get better." Things like that entered my mind alot. Or another one would be the following. "I can't live long enough to get better, this is too much." That is a short-sighted response that at best says something ain't working you should try something else for at least the sake of others. Now contrast that with euthanisa, and a person with terminal cancer. Those people, that the suicidal person should consider, but usually don't because of there issues, are considered in the case of euthanisa. Do these people want to see, there family member suffer any longer? That is a consideration that is sometimes made. And unlike with say depression, with something like terminal cancer, you know more or less there is no chance of beating it. That is another difference.

 

This may seem cold, but its a criticism of myself(a person who has been extremely suicidal in the past) as much as anyone possibly offended.

 

Suicide is done by emotional thinking and can't really be done at least in the western sense of the word, rationally.

 

Euthanasia can and usually is done rationally and emotionally.

 

**Sorry about the length, but. . . I literally don't know how much longer that I have to live, so, deal with it please. . . lol**

 

(Valk,)

 

Huh. Lemme try to explain my viewpoint, because I can tell that it's not what you may be expecting. This is probably because I not only never have thought within the box, but you couldn't force me to think *within* the box even if you were to try to play Whack-A-Mole with my cranium, in an effort to make me think within certain limitations. Just blame it on my being a heathen-assed Buddhist long before I ever even learned about christianity. Because its simply innate to me to always question EVERYTHING. As you may have figured out, THAT is one of the oohhhh so many reasons that I TOTALLY sucked at being a christian. LOL

 

I know that I can't possibly give you enough clarification about what I'm going to try to explain, simply because this post is going to be too long as it is ((sorry to all), so if you have any questions afterward, feel free to ask. But, I shall try. . .

 

<scratches her head forehead> Okay. . .insofar as my experience with this subject is concerned, I'll explain it this way: I've been a volunteer A.D.A. advocate for twenty-two years, and have lived all over the country. I was actually living in Michigan at the climax of Kavorkian's goofiness, and the man drove me up the wall, the way that he kept trying to kill people off. (I would've liked to play Whack A mole with *his* cranium, lemme tell ya.)

 

Beyond that, I've watched family members, friends and former clients live through long, lingering painful deaths, or end up vegetables because of badly done suicides, specifically because this subject is so taboo in our country. That really disgusts me, because I truly feel that if the religous right didn't go so apoplectic every time this subject came up, that we might actually have at least had a chance to deal with the "slippery slope" concerns, and in a neutral manner. (Or, at least, have finally actually approached the subject at all.)

 

Insofar as my personal experience with the subject of suicide itself is concerned, I'm afraid that I've had a LOT of experience with it . Waaaaaaay too much.

 

One of the very first memories that I have of my childhood was when I was about three years old, and my father handed me a glass of ipecac to get my mother to drink. That was because she had just overdosed yet again on pills, but was absolutely convinced that he and my siblings were trying to poison her--so she refused to drink it. Me, she'd accept it from--but no one else--because I've always been this strangely calm and peaceful person, there isn't a lot that phases me.

 

Over the course of my life, I literally cannot even give you a ballpark figure of the number of times that she either threatened to,or actually did attempt to, commit suicide. (Lemme tell ya: holidays were REALLY interesting around our house. lol)

 

As far as my own"flirtation with suicide" is concerned, I'd have to say, only twice--and that was twenty years ago, when I first became disabled, and had no medical insurance at all, and then twelve years ago, when my body's DNA literally started to self-destruct. (Ouch.)

 

Other than that? I'm a fighter: currently, I'm dealing with a total of sixteen different diseases, five of which are "terminal," but I make it a point to ignore my doctors. lol

 

The ironic part is that I was only somewhat disabled when my idiot former religious advisor first began stalking me fifteen years ago, but high levels of stress aren't the greatest thing for your health.

 

Oh, and the reason that the fact that suicide isn't an option for me where I currently live is because neither assisted suicide (or euthanasia) are an available where I live, and, after having seen several people totally misjudge and muck up their attempted suicides, I wouldn't be willing to dare.

 

Over the years, I have taught myself how to have a bizarrely high level of tolerance for the pain I'm always in (I actually have gotten teased by my oncologist about it), and I'm simply neutral about it because I know that it's simply my body's way of telling me that there is "something wrong." Because of that, I have yet to ever have taken a painkiller, except for when I was fourteen, and had dental surgery, but I hadn't realized that that was what I was being given.

 

 

 

The part that gets to me is thatI just simply don't want to die a long, slow lingering painful death--incapacitated, and stoned out of my mind. So, I'd at least like to have the option of making the pain stop, when it reaches the point of being hellish, even for me.

 

But until then? I plan enjoying each and every day--and telling as many bad jokes along the way as possible.

 

Why? Because I am a Buddhist. As I've said before, I started out as a Buddhist, long before I ever had any idea of what christianity even was. And, after I woke up, and remembered my buddhahood and left christianity, it was more a matter of simply accepting the fact that that was what I had always been--and never should have left.

 

It's simply too much in my blood to always live by the credo, "Yesterday is over, tomorrow never comes, there is only today." By that, I mean that, no matter how bad a day has been, no matter how much pain I'm in, no matter how horrible things might seem, or how crappy my future may look? When midnight strikes, it's a brand new day, a clean break--and I begin anew.

 

Why?

 

Because, I have survived horrible, horrible things over the course of my lifetime. Things that most people don't realize are even remote possibilities as something that might happen to them. And, as I may have already said before: because of that, I'm a harsh, harsh realist. I deal with what is, not with how I might wish things to be. I found out long ago that it makes for a much more pleasant life, not only for myself, but also, for the people around me. And looking at things with as much harsh realism as possible right now?

 

I'm awfully damn lucky. First and foremost, because I am still alive. But also because, despite how very little I own right now (because I have lost literally everything that I own *five* times as an adult) I *still* own more than literally millions of people on this planet. And, let's face facts: I may only have Medicaid, and my income may be 30% below the poverty level, but I'm still one hell of a lot better off than millions more.

 

Those, to me, are the harsh facts.

 

The only problem that I run into is that one harsh fact that I'm having to deal with is that my death is going to be controlled, and orchestrated, against my will, by the Religious Right.

 

But it is what it is, so I will cope. And it will be fine, because I know that life is not only what you make of it--it's also what you perceive it to be.

 

But this Buddhist will freely admit: I do keep hoping that all of those people that spend so much of their time trying to "save my soul" will be reborn for their next thousand lifetimes as cockroaches living in boot factories--if for no other reason than the fact that I would find that to be funny as hell.

 

Oh, and if you're concerned about discussing this subject with this "poor dying woman"? Number one, I'm not "dying," I'm "fighting to live," And, number two, it's almost impossible to insult me, so don't worry about that! Pretty much the only two ways that you *can* insult me are by 1. accusing me of a crime, OR 2. saying that I can't write worth shit. Other than that? It ain't gonna happen. So let the comments fly. lol

 

Hang in there, and keep fighting the depression. Don't *ever* give up.smile.png

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Guest Valk0010

I agree anna, you said it differently then I would, but the same basic principals are the same. And all i argue is the option should be on the table. How one uses that option, should be up to them and them alone.

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Guest Xtech

Just a few quick thoughts here. I work (volunteer) at a hospice. Euthanasia does happen, as the DNRs are respected but it is a passive act. We have to be careful with language here, but patients may refuse any sustenance - and whether it is a premeditated rational and informed decision to accept the inevitable, or if it is that they have become too incapacitated too swallow - these things are hard to know. As someone noted above, there is no hard and fast, no black and white. In hospice care, their passing is eased with Fentanyl and morphine and Ativan but it is still often a slow death.

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I agree anna, you said it differently then I would, but the same basic principals are the same. And all i argue is the option should be on the table. How one uses that option, should be up to them and them alone.

 

EXACTLY: options, options, options! I just want to die well, not fry babies, puppies, and kittens in a vat of oil like tacos, or have sex with a giraffe or something--yeesh. (Although, I wouldn't mind frying Donald Trump like a taco, because I've developed an obsessive fear of his hair.)

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Just a few quick thoughts here. I work (volunteer) at a hospice. Euthanasia does happen, as the DNRs are respected but it is a passive act. We have to be careful with language here, but patients may refuse any sustenance - and whether it is a premeditated rational and informed decision to accept the inevitable, or if it is that they have become too incapacitated too swallow - these things are hard to know. As someone noted above, there is no hard and fast, no black and white. In hospice care, their passing is eased with Fentanyl and morphine and Ativan but it is still often a slow death.

 

I looked up DNR. It looks to me like about the same as a living will. Allowing a person to die is not euthanasia, is it? Causing a person to die by an intentional act is euthanasia. If it is called euthanasia when a person fails to eat then we might say the starving masses in Africa and other famine-ridden places are being euthanized. That does not quite make sense.

 

Okay, here's the first paragraph re DNR at thehealthline.ca, and yes, it is a living will:

 

A “Do Not Resuscitate” (DNR) order is a legal document instructing medical professionals not to revive you if you are in a condition, such as cardiac or pulmonary failure, where you cannot be saved without invasive and continuous medical treatment. It is put in place only if there is no reasonable probability that you can recover from your illness. It may be a prerequisite for admittance to a palliative care facility. A DNR order is a common form of a "Living Will" or "Advance Care Directive". For more information, see
.
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In this area, a thirteen-year-old girl, Lydia Herrle, got hit and seriously injured, by a truck when she got off her school bus three weeks ago. It's a much-publicized incident and you might know about it. She continues in a coma. But not ever do I read in the news that she is not expected eventually to recover.

 

The family is Christian and obviously would not consider euthanasia but neither would I at this point even if it were legal, and I don't think anyone could morally and ethically justify it. She is very young and is making medical progress. Today's report says she has been removed from a ventilator and I guess she is now breathing on her own. It's going to be a long time before she is back to what she was but in ten years she could be a healthy young woman starting a career.

I would call that a different circumstance, but say, the child had, no way of recovery and was just going to suffer needlessly, then I would be for it.

 

Yeah. It's not as though she can ever release herself. When I was younger, my mother's friend worked in what she called a "vegetable patch," with comatose severely brain-damaged patients--her stories scared the hell out of me.

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Just a few quick thoughts here. I work (volunteer) at a hospice. Euthanasia does happen, as the DNRs are respected but it is a passive act. We have to be careful with language here, but patients may refuse any sustenance - and whether it is a premeditated rational and informed decision to accept the inevitable, or if it is that they have become too incapacitated too swallow - these things are hard to know. As someone noted above, there is no hard and fast, no black and white. In hospice care, their passing is eased with Fentanyl and morphine and Ativan but it is still often a slow death.

 

I looked up DNR. It looks to me like about the same as a living will. Allowing a person to die is not euthanasia, is it? Causing a person to die by an intentional act is euthanasia. If it is called euthanasia when a person fails to eat then we might say the starving masses in Africa and other famine-ridden places are being euthanized. That does not quite make sense.

 

Okay, here's the first paragraph re DNR at thehealthline.ca, and yes, it is a living will:

 

 

 

 

 

A “Do Not Resuscitate” (DNR) order is a legal document instructing medical professionals not to revive you if you are in a condition, such as cardiac or pulmonary failure, where you cannot be saved without invasive and continuous medical treatment. It is put in place only if there is no reasonable probability that you can recover from your illness. It may be a prerequisite for admittance to a palliative care facility. A DNR order is a common form of a "Living Will" or "Advance Care Directive". For more information, see
Powers of Attorney, Living Wills and Advance Care Directives
.

 

 

You put DNRs and DNIs (Do Not Resuscitate/ Do Not Intubate) into your living will so that the doctors and hospital are legally required to follow your wishes

 

The only problem is, as I posted on the status feed: if you don't have a POLST (Physician's Order for Life Sustaining Treatment) in place, AND your state isn't set up to implement the requirements appropriately, you're OUTA luck if you code out of the hospital, and someone calls an ambulance.

 

You wouldn't BELIEVE the number of people that think they're safe, just because they're DNR/DNI in their Advance Directive (which is typically called a "Living Will" by the public.)

 

 

http://www.polst.org

 

You might want to check out the POLST status in the state where you live, because things may actually be very different than you're expecting.

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Ever since my grandparents moved in with my family I have become VERY pro-assisted suicide. In fact, it's one of the key points that led to my deconversion.

 

My grandfather has a host of conditions that make his everyday life utterly miserable. He has gotten to a point where if we give him a new, more powerful pain med, it only takes days for his body to adjust to it and become useless and then he begs for something stronger. He can walk to some extent, but his eyes are awful, he can't hear anything, he has rheumatoid arthritis eating away at him and he has some sort of nerve disorder that causes his groin to be in unimaginable pain. Half of the time, due to all the medications he's forced to take, he can't defecate and when he does he gets it all over himself (we're still trying to figure out exactly HOW he does this). We can't have conversations at the dinner table because he'll get upset because he can't hear what everyone is saying, will throw a fit, then lay in bed for the rest of the day and refuse to eat.

 

My grandmother has fallen at least 3-4 times every day this week. She can't feel her legs and can't control them. Sometimes she even feels numbing pain in her legs. She was born with spina bifida and only had an operation to correct it when she was well into adulthood, thus her whole skeletal structure is contorted and causes her enormous pain. Both her and grandpa have been suffering from dementia and they gets frustrated because they can't remember anything. Like grandpa, she tends to get her own feces and urine all over herself and then will refuse to take a bath because she can't get up our stairs and we can't afford a lift. Grandma no longer has the ability to feel thirsty so she never drinks enough. We have to give her fluids in an IV on a regular basis. Her fingers are contorted in all sorts of directions and she also suffers from arthritis. Neither her, nor grandpa are strong enough anymore to open a new jug of milk, much less pour it for themselves.

 

Both say on a regular basis they wish they would die. Both have attempted suicide by ingesting large amounts of medications. Both are in horrible pain, but don't suffer from anything even remotely terminal. There is no end in sight and at this point, I just wish someone would come in with a needle and let their pain end.

 

Now I understand why someone might be iffy on the issue if someone is younger. Just anybody shouldn't be allowed to walk in and request to be euthanized. There should be an intense psychological evaluation involved along with a hard look at their medical history. I say, if there's something you can do to help your pain and you still have quite a few years left, then it shouldn't be granted. If you're like my grandparents however, who are 87 and there is NO way to relieve their pain or improve their quality of life, then why let them suffer?

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Consure del Sol, how I sympathize. My grandmother was into her nineties and had such severe Alzheimer's that she didn't know a single person alive and kept reliving the loss of her baby fifty years earlier. I was a Christian at the time and often prayed that she be allowed to die. She seemed so miserable. Yet Alzheimer's is not something you die from. Your brain just deteriorates.

 

This was twenty years ago. I guess now-a-days there may be better ways of dealing with Alzheimer's but I dunno. If, like you describe, people don't know what's going on around them, and don't understand to take their meds, or how to cope with life, and are in constant pain with no hope for a better future, and in high old age...A decent deity would surely allow us to live quality lives then die in our sleep before things get to this point.

 

Since god either can't or won't do it, why not let humans? We don't put our pets through this much suffering. Society inflicts on humans what we would never let anyone do to their pets.

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Ever since my grandparents moved in with my family I have become VERY pro-assisted suicide. . . .

 

 

Conure,

Oh man, shit and Shinola and a box of granola--that must be horrifically exhausting to have to cope with that. Especially the fact that you're having to care for them, but the "them" that they used to be basically no longer exists (even though they don't have Alzheimer's) because they've both been reduced to children once again--and you're "Mommy" now. Total suckage. Yet such is, life, eh?

 

Well, just try to take the best care of yourself that you can, despite the circumstances, and be as kind to yourself as you can be.

 

And: make sure that you give yourself time to grieve, even now. 'Cause you don't have to wait until they die to do that, you know.

 

Oh, and please forgive me for sounding Buddhist, but you, m'dear, are earning some damn good Karma for yourself, some damn good Karma, indeed. Hang in there, and always remember a motto that I made up for myself long ago:

 

This too, shall pass. Admittedly, maybe like a ten pound kidney stone, covered with glass shards and Tabasco sauce--but, just rest assured that this too shall pass.

 

Hang in there. smile.png

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