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Sermon Manipulation


NeverAgainV
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I am pissed thinking about the manipulation of the pastor in times past & presently. We left that cult church over 5 years ago, but needless to say I have a LOT of unresolved issues of all that happened.

 

I won’t go into my story over again, it’s here for anyone who wants a backdrop. What gets me is that the pastor just continues on unabated, nobody says anything or does anything to confront him. What triggered me recently is that my husband had been trying to nicely correspond with someone in the cult church we left & instead of trying to make a connection, ask how we & our children are doing...this member shot us back what was basically a guilt ladened sermon email to straighten us out!

First & foremost he brought up "we made a terrible mistake in leaving the detroit church....we need to repent..." Not even a word..."how are the kids? how are you?"

 

 

We should have figured nothing has changed. I found a rather recent sermon outline the cult pastor did about “Depression”. In the past people have been made to feel like shit for being depressed...I was depressed for a time after uprooting our lives for the cult & a group of people who didn’t give us a second thought. During my times of depression I was made to feel I was not being “spiritual” & the “devil was getting to me” for missing my extended family & friends. Again, I was shamed for feeling the way I did, (depressed) & was told to basically “get over it & get it together!!”

It wasn’t much help & of course I felt worse after having harmful words hurled at me.

 

...so I find this sermon outline ex-pastor did after we left the cult & it is SO manipulative!

Here are some excerpts. Mind you, expastor always says his job is to “preach the gospel!!”...funny how the “gospel” always ends up being about....HIM.

 

Outline of some of the sermon below. I deleted some using “.....” to shorten

 

 

"MY PERSONAL STRUGGLE WITH DEPRESSION (yes that is the title of the sermon because we know who & what it is all about....glare.gif )

1. For some time I have been struggling with depression. ....Being able to

speak to it as I do today is therapeutic for me.

a. I often feel weary, which is depression.

b. Weary - 1. Having the feeling of loss of strength, languor, and need for rest, produced by

continued exertion (physical or mental), endurance of severe pain, or wakefulness; tired,

fatigued. 2. Discontented at the continuance or continued recurrence of something, and

desiring its cessation; having one's patience, tolerance, zeal, or energy exhausted; 'sick

and tired' of something. 3. Depressed and dispirited through trouble, anxiety,

disappointment, etc.; sick at heart.

2. I do not tell you this so you can solve it. This is mine, not yours, to resolve with my God.

3. I do not tell you this to gain your sympathy. That will not help me cope with it. If you come

away from this with nothing more than feeling sorry for me, you have missed my objective.

4. I do not tell you this to steer you away from coming to me for help, if you need me. I am not

so bad off that I cannot be of service to you.

5. Neither to do I tell you this to control you or to secure your submission to me because you

feel sorry for me. Submission secured that way will only go so far.

a. Although, if hearing this spurs you to make a needed change or improvement now

because you do not want to burden a man of God, I’ll take it.

b. People with emotional, circumstantial, or physical afflictions will often play those to

control other people.

6. The single most helpful thing you can do to help me through this is to practice what I teach

you (1TH 3:6-8). This far exceeds any verbal compliment you may give me.

7. My overriding objective must not be to preach myself, but to preach Christ Jesus the Lord,

and myself your servant for His sake (2CO 4:5).

8. I tell you of this because it fits the pattern of men of God in the Bible who told of their

depression; it can set an example of suffering affliction; and you can learn from it”-----

 

 

This is just the beginning & it gets worse from here. I wonder when “the gospel” became about the pastor trying to get sympathy for his depression & also the sermon being “theraputic” for the pastor??? Oh yeah...right...the “gospel” is anything the pastor wants it to be. I know he claims he's not doing it for sympathy, but I've seen this guy literally rant from the pulpit about being so on-fire for gawd that he was preaching while horribly sick with a barf bucket! Yes, he had to point that out to us... So this guy -says- he doesn't want sympathy....but what true christian wants to burden the man of gawd? He KNOWS decent people will feel guilty, compassion & therefore is using the pulpit to get the response he so desires.

 

This is all a bunch of manipulative bullshit. And note how it sounds so sincere....but in the long run something like this, if you ask me is MANIPULATIVE.

Note he makes it clear he wants people to DO WHAT HE SAYS...BELIEVE WHAT HE TEACHES. That’s what I get from it.

 

Good "olde tyme religion"......guilting & manipulating people for ages.....

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Manipulatition is what it's all about.

 

People like this pastor are experts at it. Say one thing, mean another, all while acting like you're some kind of martyr. People don't question them because they are too busy beating themselves over their own "sins" to worry about the actions of another. It's descpicable.

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The problem with all organized religion is that its ALWAYS the organization that is most important, not the people.

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That is so messed up. I can recall a few sermons that I heard growing up which were almost as bad, but that one has to take the cake.

 

"You should feel guilty for disappointing a man of God enough to drive him to depression. Your sinful life is hurting me personally. This should motivate you to give me control of your life."

 

Sorry they hurt you, Nev. You deserve much, MUCH better. :)

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I agree that manipulation is what it's all about. Manipulation. Control. Fear. False promises. And as you saw from your ex-friend's email reply, also false community, false friendship. That pastor does sound like a total creepazoid.

 

Be glad you've escaped. One day you won't even need to feel angry or disgusted by them any more.

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OK, here's a pastor who needs a one-year sabbatical due to clinical depression and loss of insight. He needs to take care of himself, because the church is not about him.

 

This man needs to step down and get well.

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Thank you for your replies & kind words.

 

The whole religion thing & true churchtm nonsense gets to me sometimes. At other times I feel that "I don't care what they think anymore".

Emailing with the guy still in the cult brought out a lot of the pain I keep hidden in the back of my mind. I try to forget, but it's there. I'm sure you guys can relate.

 

We tried to explain that we could not continue in good conscience to stay in that church because over time we began to disagree with too much. We had seen & heard enough over the years. His response in the email to us-

 

"A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Titus 3:10.

 

Sadly, nothing will stop your false accusations, as nothing stopped them against the Apostle Paul and the Lord Jesus Christ. Clinging to “conscience” when fraught with false, deceptive accusations should be no comfort to a child of God whatsoever."

 

*sigh* At first I was angry reading that, then saddened... this mentality wont change unless someone does something or says something...but nobody says anything or does anything about it.

They continue to carry on agreeing w/ the pastor's pronouncements & edicts. But anyone who has the courage to question & leave are made out as God's enemy. Of course in their minds anyone who disagrees with the pastor & his

doctrine is synonymous with being "deceived", hard hearted & basically God's enemy. I HATE this type of thinking & I hate that they try to cover up their hate & abuse by using religious pious words as if God is on their side...Wendybanghead.gif .

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That's all it is. Manipulation. Whether they make it blatantly or secretly or failingly secretly about themselves, its always about themselves. I've come to learn this.

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He's obviously a man after Gawd's own heart, including God's narcissism.

 

So sermonizing is really just a therapy session for him while he gets paid to talk about his feelings? Why do people go to this church when there are so many others that are just as Xian but don't have an egoistic minister?

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He's obviously a man after Gawd's own heart, including God's narcissism.

 

Definitely a textbook case of NPD it sounds like, not even colloquilly speaking but literal NPD.

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Here are a few more doosies....I could go on but I'll stop....for now.

Also I am just copying & pasting...it's NOT my words but his.

 

Quotes from the sermon outline:

"

9. Following are possible causes of and symptoms of my depression:

a. Several painful things have come into my life, some that involve personal choice I

deemed necessary and some that did not involve my choice.

b. I have health problems as yet unresolved.

c. My wife, my mother, and my sister have health problems.

d. There are the problems of members in the church that concern me.

e. I have lost the social connection at the gym. The loss of close relationships affects

the deep limbic system which controls our moods. Hence, we become depressed

when we lose close relationships.

f. We have a member moving away for a job increasing the burden of non-resident

members on my ministry.

g. My daughter moved away for nine months with her husband so he can attend

firefighting school.

h. Some members are not following my teaching.

i. There is the loneliness that is inherent in my job......

 

k. I see blight in my neighbourhood.

l. I am suffering from severe sleep deprivation (JOB 7:3-4).

m. I have little fun in my life.....

...

.....10. Depression can be the result of increased knowledge (ECC 1:18). Many of the great minds

throughout history have suffered from depression.

 

12. I am likely suffering from adrenal fatigue. I have never fully recovered from the trip to Asia.

 

...The role of a pastor is the nearest thing to the role of Jesus Christ on this earth

as He was a pastor and teacher. Hence, the pastor’s position brings him nearer

to experiencing the sorrows and grief of our Lord."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The quotes I put above is not all of what is in the outline, it's lengthy, so I had to trim it down.

There is so much I could say & so much more I could have put here, but I wont.

That last quote just speaks volumes.

It's hard for me to feel sorry for someone who has hurt my family & I greatly (in addition to other people)...all in the name of his religion.

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That's pretty sad, Nev.

 

To his credit, the pastor role will suck the life out of just about anybody. I feel for him as well. Everybody is looking for guidance and example. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

I'm still friends with a pastor or two who go through such drama at times. I plan to have a few beers with one of them in the next few weeks. He's a lot of fun when you get him out of his bubble, share a few aggravations that you have in common and challenge him a bit. B)

 

I don't mean to make light of any of his statements that hurt you. I just want to spread empathy for everyone involved. This indoctrination hurts him too.

 

Be free! :D

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That's pretty sad, Nev.

 

To his credit, the pastor role will suck the life out of just about anybody. I feel for him as well. Everybody is looking for guidance and example. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

I'm still friends with a pastor or two who go through such drama at times. I plan to have a few beers with one of them in the next few weeks. He's a lot of fun when you get him out of his bubble, share a few aggravations that you have in common and challenge him a bit. cool.png

 

I don't mean to make light of any of his statements that hurt you. I just want to spread empathy for everyone involved. This indoctrination hurts him too.

 

Be free! biggrin.png

 

 

TF.... you kind of took the words out of my mouth...I was going to say something a bit the same. I am sorry you got hurt Nev...I really am. I agree with what TF said.

 

He is either the worst best manipulator OR he is severly depressed and probably, by looking at the stuff Nev wrote about...he's probably in the horrible, 'silent' questioning where god is??? Just like us. Maybe, he can't admit it and he's screaming for help. It was a list like the above that got me to questioning the so-called, magical god.

 

What a shame for everyone involved...........

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That's pretty sad, Nev.

 

To his credit, the pastor role will suck the life out of just about anybody. I feel for him as well. Everybody is looking for guidance and example. He has the weight of the world on his shoulders.

 

I'm still friends with a pastor or two who go through such drama at times. I plan to have a few beers with one of them in the next few weeks. He's a lot of fun when you get him out of his bubble, share a few aggravations that you have in common and challenge him a bit. cool.png

 

I don't mean to make light of any of his statements that hurt you. I just want to spread empathy for everyone involved. This indoctrination hurts him too.

 

Be free! biggrin.png

True...but there are merciful bible verses & when the pastor chooses to single out the judgmental & hurtful verses when it comes to those who disagree with him it causes harm.

OTOH hand he will use the merciful verses when it comes to himself, nearest & dearest. A lot of christians are not so judgmental with their doctrinal stance.

He can choose a merciful bible interpretation or a harsh...Westboro Baptist type of dogma/ interpretation.

Thanks for your thoughts. :)

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I guess it all goes so damn deep...

There was a lot that got to me about this sermon outline but when he mentioned his relationships with people at the gym...compared it losing a close relationship...he NEVER showed that kind of compassion to us when we uprooted our lives for the cult & really missed our family & friends. It was NOTHING...no big deal....I became the "murmurer & complainer" yet he can "complain & woe is me" over not going to the friggen gym....glare.gif

So it's stuff like that gets to me.. if someone else is struggling, depressed, hurting...their pain is ignored & downplayed, but if it's the pastor or HIS family....MAJOR crisis & the mercy & compassion is a-plenty for himself. glare.gif

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He probably feels like he is responsible or everybody in his congregation. It has probably driven him literally mad.

 

He is incapable of relating to people outside of his reality. I doubt that he is capable of seeing from a more empathetic and gracious perspective at this time.

 

Of course, he could just be an unbeliever manipulating those whom he was hired to serve. After your last post pointing out the gym statements and lack of appreciation for your sacrifice, I can see that being the case. Maybe he's just a selfish, childish prick.

 

I hope that you have removed yourself from the entire scenario as much as you can at this time. I'm sure that you care about people who are still trapped there.

 

If only I had the words...

 

This entire paradigm is just so frustrating! If I could just wake everyone involved to reality and then give them a big hug!!!

 

My fellow Ex-Cs are the only ones following, so let me just correct this to say that your feelings are justified. The other brainwashed members are probably hurting as well. We just need to be strong, be patient, and move on. :)

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Thing about people in churches like that is that they never really cared about you, even if you did care about them. They cared about your conformity, take that away you don't exist in their eyes. Pathetic.

 

I copped the same bulshit over my depression, all it ever did was make me worse.

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Thing about people in churches like that is that they never really cared about you, even if you did care about them. They cared about your conformity, take that away you don't exist in their eyes. Pathetic.

 

I copped the same bulshit over my depression, all it ever did was make me worse.

.

 

But it's not that they didn't want to care. The primary problem is that the mind-control did not give them permission to care. The God-virus has utterly destroyed their sense of empathy for those outside of their cult. They are likely still hurting and dealing with cognitive dissonance as well. :(

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Thing about people in churches like that is that they never really cared about you, even if you did care about them. They cared about your conformity, take that away you don't exist in their eyes. Pathetic.

 

I copped the same bulshit over my depression, all it ever did was make me worse.

.

 

But it's not that they didn't want to care. The primary problem is that the mind-control did not give them permission to care. The God-virus has utterly destroyed their sense of empathy for those outside of their cult. They are likely still hurting and dealing with cognitive dissonance as well. sad.png

 

Funny how it never destroyed my capacity to care.....they wanted social acceptance more than they cared about the state of their own heart.

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d. There are the problems of members in the church that concern me.

e. I have lost the social connection at the gym.

f. We have a member moving away for a job increasing the burden of non-resident

members on my ministry.

g. My daughter moved away for nine months with her husband so he can attend

firefighting school.

h. Some members are not following my teaching.

 

10. Depression can be the result of increased knowledge (ECC 1:18). Many of the great minds

throughout history have suffered from depression.

 

12. I am likely suffering from adrenal fatigue. I have never fully recovered from the trip to Asia.

 

These are the ones that really stood out to me:

 

d. GUILT TRIP.

f. GUILT TRIP AND MANIPULATION

g. CONTROL ISSUES

h. CONTROL ISSUES, NARCISSISM

 

10. Narcissism- 'my mind must be great, I must truly knowledgable, because I have depression. Therefore, you ALL should be following everything I say TO THE LETTER.

 

12. Martyr complex.

 

I've got all the time in the world for people struggling with depression and trying to find their way through. I have none whatsoever for those who use ANY condition, mental or physical, to manipulate or control other people. Manipulation and control issues are hallmarks of a personality disorder, NOT depression.

 

Playing the victim is a very effective form of manipulation, and one that I have experienced first-hand myself. The manipulator will use their condition to gain the empathy and sympathy of others, and then guilt the other person into doing too much for them, using their compassion against them. Not only that, but the true victim, the one being manipulated, also feels terrible every time they have a bad thought about how much the other person is getting them to do, or has a bad thought about the person, or even simply wants to deny a request.

 

I experienced this with a blind woman I was working with as a volunteer. I was only meant to take her shopping for a couple of hours once a fortnight. Those shopping trips turned into six-hour marathons, turned into me getting guilted if I didn't go see her every two days or less, because she was "worried she might have said or done something", wanting constant lifts because she didn't have the money for a cab, despite the 140k sitting in her bank account... But the icing on the cake, was when I dated her neighbour for a few months, and then broke it off after he became abusive one night and wouldn't give me back my cat, Bruce, continually threatening to send him to the pound. I called my dad, he heard everything the guy was screaming at me. I ended up having to get a restraining order, and when we went to court... She turned up to testify that I was the abusive one! It didn't work, though, because I had kept meticulous records of all the harrassment.

 

So no, I have no sympathy for this pastor. His "depression" is merely the latest thing he has thought of to get people to do what he wants and gain greater control over the congregation. I don't deny that pastoring can be a difficult job and that the religion does take a toll on everyone involved; but this goes beyond that. In his desire to prove how many things he is depressed about, the true motivation for his "condition" is shining through, and really validates, to me, everything Nev has been saying.

 

The guy's a creep, Nev. I'm so glad you escaped.

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Its all manufactured for effect, take away the lighting effects, the music, and their whole schema dies.

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d. There are the problems of members in the church that concern me.

e. I have lost the social connection at the gym.

f. We have a member moving away for a job increasing the burden of non-resident

members on my ministry.

g. My daughter moved away for nine months with her husband so he can attend

firefighting school.

h. Some members are not following my teaching.

 

10. Depression can be the result of increased knowledge (ECC 1:18). Many of the great minds

throughout history have suffered from depression.

 

12. I am likely suffering from adrenal fatigue. I have never fully recovered from the trip to Asia.

 

These are the ones that really stood out to me:

 

d. GUILT TRIP.

f. GUILT TRIP AND MANIPULATION

g. CONTROL ISSUES

h. CONTROL ISSUES, NARCISSISM

 

10. Narcissism- 'my mind must be great, I must truly knowledgable, because I have depression. Therefore, you ALL should be following everything I say TO THE LETTER.

 

12. Martyr complex.

 

I've got all the time in the world for people struggling with depression and trying to find their way through. I have none whatsoever for those who use ANY condition, mental or physical, to manipulate or control other people. Manipulation and control issues are hallmarks of a personality disorder, NOT depression.

 

Playing the victim is a very effective form of manipulation, and one that I have experienced first-hand myself. The manipulator will use their condition to gain the empathy and sympathy of others, and then guilt the other person into doing too much for them, using their compassion against them. Not only that, but the true victim, the one being manipulated, also feels terrible every time they have a bad thought about how much the other person is getting them to do, or has a bad thought about the person, or even simply wants to deny a request.

 

I experienced this with a blind woman I was working with as a volunteer. I was only meant to take her shopping for a couple of hours once a fortnight. Those shopping trips turned into six-hour marathons, turned into me getting guilted if I didn't go see her every two days or less, because she was "worried she might have said or done something", wanting constant lifts because she didn't have the money for a cab, despite the 140k sitting in her bank account... But the icing on the cake, was when I dated her neighbour for a few months, and then broke it off after he became abusive one night and wouldn't give me back my cat, Bruce, continually threatening to send him to the pound. I called my dad, he heard everything the guy was screaming at me. I ended up having to get a restraining order, and when we went to court... She turned up to testify that I was the abusive one! It didn't work, though, because I had kept meticulous records of all the harrassment.

 

So no, I have no sympathy for this pastor. His "depression" is merely the latest thing he has thought of to get people to do what he wants and gain greater control over the congregation. I don't deny that pastoring can be a difficult job and that the religion does take a toll on everyone involved; but this goes beyond that. In his desire to prove how many things he is depressed about, the true motivation for his "condition" is shining through, and really validates, to me, everything Nev has been saying.

 

The guy's a creep, Nev. I'm so glad you escaped.

Blackpuddin THANKS!!! Sometimes I think I'm going crazy, but I know what I experienced. When I read the outline of that sermon I was like "no effing way!! This guy is taking the cake with playing the sympathy card!"

He is a brilliant manipulator & gotten good at it over the years. Also when he brought up his daughter going away for a few months....i'm like, really??? Kids up & leave home all of the time, it's a part of cutting the umbilical cord & growing up, yet this was a part of him being depressed?? The guy should be happy his son in law is getting training to get a decent job, instead he makes it an issue to be depressed.....??? It made no sense to me.

 

Also the part about the "great minds" of history being depressed...he is putting himself right up there with the "great minds of history"...he's so much better than the average person!! NOT Evidentally he did an evangelistic trip to Asia & brings it up how he hasn't recovered!! Fucking asshole I have yet to recover from the hell he put me & my family through....effing jerk! But the last one where he says

"The role of a pastor is the nearest thing to the role of Jesus Christ on this earth

as He was a pastor and teacher. Hence, the pastor’s position brings him nearer

to experiencing the sorrows and grief of our Lord." -------- Ha Ha Ha!!

He's putting himself right up there with the man god they worship....he's putting himself above & higher than other people.

He's using all of those words to point out that he is ABOVE pretty much everyone.....except possibly other preachers. that just makes me mad....self righteous jerk!

 

I appreciate your break down of it Pudd!! So you know first hand how it is being with someone who uses their misfortune or handicap to manipulate. It is the worst!! Here you are really going out of your way to help...then, get taken advantage of by that woman. I'm starting to think that in this life there are givers & then there are takers....that woman sounds like a manipulator & TAKER to me. And I'm sure it hurt because here all of that time you were sacrificing your time & helping her & in the end she was willing to stick it to you & forgot about all you did for her! She was trying to make it out like you were the abuser when it was HER. What a user than woman is!

 

Gawd...I just don't get how people can do that shit....I mean when I was young I was quite selfish & self centered...all a part of being young & growing up, right?? But you would think a person would grow out of that period of selfishness & narcissism....I guess those who have personality disorders never grow out of that phase??

 

I'm glad you figured out that that woman was a nutter & the boyfriend too girl! Glad you got away. :D

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Nev, it's the people like that who really shit me the most. Especially as in the process of using the condition depression as a method of manipulation, he is not only enforcing false stereotypes of the condition, but giving people the wrong idea of what it is and how best to manage it.

 

The majority of people dealing with depression suffer in silence, and actually go out of their way to be as little of a burden on others as possible. I don't see him doing that when he lays a guilt trip on his daughter for the crime of growing up and getting on with her life. Missing his daughter, that would be normal. But blaming her for her desire to create a life with her husband instead of being dependent on him? That's not normal. And it's not depression, either.

 

While everything can and does often seem worse when in the grips of depression, even the small stuff of life, it's the way that this guy throws in guilt trips and manipulation that raises the red flags for me.

 

Oh, I just realised what was really missing from this sermon: apologies. Anyone else here ever noticed how much depressed people tend to apologise? It's like a second nature, I've noticed. When you feel sorry for existing, you do tend to apologise a lot to other people. He didn't apologise for anything. Not a thing.

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Nev, it's the people like that who really shit me the most. Especially as in the process of using the condition depression as a method of manipulation, he is not only enforcing false stereotypes of the condition, but giving people the wrong idea of what it is and how best to manage it.

 

The majority of people dealing with depression suffer in silence, and actually go out of their way to be as little of a burden on others as possible. I don't see him doing that when he lays a guilt trip on his daughter for the crime of growing up and getting on with her life. Missing his daughter, that would be normal. But blaming her for her desire to create a life with her husband instead of being dependent on him? That's not normal. And it's not depression, either.

 

While everything can and does often seem worse when in the grips of depression, even the small stuff of life, it's the way that this guy throws in guilt trips and manipulation that raises the red flags for me.

 

Oh, I just realised what was really missing from this sermon: apologies. Anyone else here ever noticed how much depressed people tend to apologise? It's like a second nature, I've noticed. When you feel sorry for existing, you do tend to apologise a lot to other people. He didn't apologise for anything. Not a thing.

Just wow...I never thought about that....just wow. It is eye opening for sure.
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