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Creationist Or Theistic Evolutionist?


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When I was at the start of the walking away process and looking for guidance, some here told me to look at science. Thing is I was formerly a TE, didn't have any problem with science so my view in that respect hasn't really changed.

 

Just wondering how many here were TE or creationist and how your stance changed during your deconversion?

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I guess I don't count because I was always technically a TE... just changed from laid-back lukewarm German mainstream christianity to laid-back Asatru :)

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Guest Valk0010

TE

 

BUUUUUUUUUUUUUT

 

I didn't really realize cause I didn't know much about evolution, that the arguments that say evolution and the bible are compatible suck.

 

If you have no actual fall of man, wrong doing is in a sense in our dna. We are being saved from our design rather then our choice. That turns the idea of a moral god on its head. That turns god into the creator of sin. It makes the god of the bible logically unsound and absurd and unbelievable.

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I abandoned Theistic Evolution in the deconversion process due to the fact it stretched the bible way to much, i mean why couldn't it just tell us the truth directly? Why must it be so mysterious? I knew it was a tale tale sign i was just trying to squeeze the bible into reality but it took me a while to really accept it.

 

There are also some major theological problems with theistic evolution, such as the problem of evil and natural disasters yet there was no original garden of Eden. Original sin was a blatant concept, TE fit ok with amerinianist Christianity but it didn't fit well with the Reformed doctrine which in my opinion is the most biblical one. Accepting evolution and big bang cosmology in a God dominated universe is fallacious, God becomes unnecessary and unneeded.

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I abandoned Theistic Evolution in the deconversion process due to the fact it stretched the bible way to much, i mean why couldn't it just tell us the truth directly? Why must it be so mysterious? I knew it was a tale tale sign i was just trying to squeeze the bible into reality but it took me a while to really accept it.

 

There are also some major theological problems with theistic evolution, such as the problem of evil and natural disasters yet there was no original garden of Eden. Original sin was a blatant concept, TE fit ok with amerinianist Christianity but it didn't fit well with the Reformed doctrine which in my opinion is the most biblical one. Accepting evolution and big bang cosmology in a God dominated universe is fallacious, God becomes unnecessary and unneeded.

 

Also its more or less asking us to believe with only a half a story. Imagine say, the gospel of peter as a fragement added to the canon. People would go WTF, there is no way that there is a god who expects us to believe that he did A B and C but then gives us a fragment of a story accurately accounting to his will and action.

 

Or more accurately its like believing in genesis without the naming of plants and god saying that adam will get bored without company.

 

If that kind of reaction is consistent within the context of those two kinds of scenarios. I don't get why we can't say that about evolution.

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I remember when I was a teen and I was still going to church, I was asked if I believed in evolution. Having learned something about the word, but not much else, I gave a tentative "I guess..." and was laughed at by my peers who had asked me. That was the first, and probably only time I brought my religion and the ideas of evolution together. Some time later, I quit churchin' myself, and learned almost simultaneously about what evolution was saying, as well as the fact that there was a philosophical disagreement between science and the undereducated church on the matter.

 

So basically I was never either a creationist, nor a believer in the compatibility of evolution and religion.

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I remember when I was a teen and I was still going to church, I was asked if I believed in evolution. Having learned something about the word, but not much else, I gave a tentative "I guess..." and was laughed at by my peers who had asked me. That was the first, and probably only time I brought my religion and the ideas of evolution together. Some time later, I quit churchin' myself, and learned almost simultaneously about what evolution was saying, as well as the fact that there was a philosophical disagreement between science and the undereducated church on the matter.

 

So basically I was never either a creationist, nor a believer in the compatibility of evolution and religion.

If they people at my church knew i was a "evilutionist," they would throw a fit.
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Theistic evolutionists also are fundies who believe modern animals represent the mythological ones mentioned in the babble. One reason for bible rewrites is to do away with all the mythological names. Theistic evolutionists also promote intelligent design or creationism depending on what church they go to. TE's are just another way to try and merge science and the written mythology of the bible. Then they think they deserve my respect for being a TE. I think they are all noodle brains. They still pick and choose what parts of the bible uphold their doctrine, cut and paste is the Christian thing to do.

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Theistic evolutionists also are fundies who believe modern animals represent the mythological ones mentioned in the babble. One reason for bible rewrites is to do away with all the mythological names. Theistic evolutionists also promote intelligent design or creationism depending on what church they go to. TE's are just another way to try and merge science and the written mythology of the bible. Then they think they deserve my respect for being a TE. I think they are all noodle brains. They still pick and choose what parts of the bible uphold their doctrine, cut and paste is the Christian thing to do.

 

Sorry, but I don't think you understand what TE is, its not as you describe. TEs adhere to proper scientific principles, and not all are fundies, I for one was not a fundie, but at my height managed to convince a fundie creationist that I could defend the Christian faith from my stance LOL.

 

Science was never an issue for me and was not the area which destroyed my faith.

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I'd like to ask further what if anything the TE believers actually knew or understood about the theory or biology in general? For example, did you know about the recurrent laryngeal nerve, and how would you rationalize such lack of design?

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I'd like to ask further what if anything the TE believers actually knew or understood about the theory or biology in general? For example, did you know about the recurrent laryngeal nerve, and how would you rationalize such lack of design?

 

I didn't really think about any possible "problems" of evolutionary theory when I was still a mainstream christian, and now that I got deeper into the topic (almost automatic if you get into any serious contact with babblical cretinism :fdevil: ) I see no problems there. As I understand TE, it says that evolution is real but is/may be guided by some Divine entity. Of course that's kind of an easy way out, how to prove that last part either way? :P

 

But anyway, why should a TE-believer have problems with evolution?

 

(Unless I'm missing something...)

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I'd like to ask further what if anything the TE believers actually knew or understood about the theory or biology in general? For example, did you know about the recurrent laryngeal nerve, and how would you rationalize such lack of design?

 

I didn't really think about any possible "problems" of evolutionary theory when I was still a mainstream christian, and now that I got deeper into the topic (almost automatic if you get into any serious contact with babblical cretinism firedevil.gif ) I see no problems there. As I understand TE, it says that evolution is real but is/may be guided by some Divine entity. Of course that's kind of an easy way out, how to prove that last part either way? tongue.png

 

But anyway, why should a TE-believer have problems with evolution?

 

(Unless I'm missing something...)

 

I make my living as an analyst so this is kind of my area of expertise. TE basically states as I understand it that evolution did happen, but god guided the process; therefore we must also infer that we are the final product. So if we are in our final complete state, why do we have vestigial organs? Why are some humans still born with actual tails? Why does a certain percentage of the population have medical problems with vestigial organs like wisdom teeth and the plantaris muscle? This reflects the idea that we are far from complete and perfect. It also infers that god is incompetent as a designer.

 

If god guided the process why do all the signs point to an unguided process (see the recurrent laryngeal nerve for example), and why is there zero evidence that anything in the process was actually guided? If we were the end goal, why does historical evidence show that the process was meandering at best rather than a straight line to completion? Were Neanderthals human in god's eye? If yes, then why didn't he allow them to live on? If no, then why did he create them in the first place and why did they interbreed with humans? Who and when was the first 'human' and were they sad that their parents did not have a soul?

 

Finally, and here is the most important section, why didn't god just tell us the truth? Faith is not a pathway to truth. If one is serious about their religious beliefs they must use evidence to help find the truth, otherwise without evidence every religion is equally correct. Also note the obstetrical dilemma I discussed here: http://www.ex-christ...d-neanderthals/

The bible says god made childbirth painful because Eve was sinful. This again makes god a liar because evolution says it's just part of the process of how we came to be with big heads and narrow hips. See the fundamentalists know what they are talking about here (at least in my opinion). God has no reason to lie and give us a false creation story in his written word. A certain percentage of the population will see the truth of biological evolution and lead them to inevitably reject Christianity because of it. So, it makes god not only a lair, but also directly to blame for the infinite torture of a certain percentage of the population. This in a nutshell is why I find theistic evolution preposterous.

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Yes there's still "a number of problems" trying to align TE with the christian gawd... doesn't automatically hold true in the generic sense though

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Yes there's still "a number of problems" trying to align TE with the christian gawd... doesn't automatically hold true in the generic sense though

 

Give me the absolute best argument for TE, besides "I'm a Christian and I accept evolution as valid science, so I guess I believe in TE". I quite simply have never heard anything more elaborate than what I just wrote.

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Yes there's still "a number of problems" trying to align TE with the christian gawd... doesn't automatically hold true in the generic sense though

 

Give me the absolute best argument for TE, besides "I'm a Christian and I accept evolution as valid science, so I guess I believe in TE". I quite simply have never heard anything more elaborate than what I just wrote.

 

Sorry, in my christian days I never really cared about all that stuff. In German mainstream christianity, evolution is not a difficult topic...it just "is". Accepted, I mean. I have no idea how my lukewarm ex-fellow-believers would try to argue. ;)

 

I can only say what I'd think about evolution today, if I'd take my heathen faith way more literal than I normally do. That would roughly result in "So many deities, evolution may well have been guided, but by whom and to what end, good question" ;)

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I think that's yet one more perfect example of how people don't really research their religion, but instead just kind of believe what they want and what they find comfortable with the lowest amount of effort. Not a dig on you by any means, I'm just saying you're telling it how it is for the typical ambivalent ho hum Christian.

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I make my living as an analyst so this is kind of my area of expertise. TE basically states as I understand it that evolution did happen, but god guided the process;

 

What is your area of expertise as an analyst? "As I understand it" is a statement of opinion, that doesn't sound like epertise to me. Just sayin' :)

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I make my living as an analyst so this is kind of my area of expertise. TE basically states as I understand it that evolution did happen, but god guided the process;

 

What is your area of expertise as an analyst? "As I understand it" is a statement of opinion, that doesn't sound like epertise to me. Just sayin' smile.png

 

Sorry that was unclear on my part. Professionally I am a problem solver and simply, it's my job to break both software and arguments to find their weaknesses. I was not trying to claim expertise in any field of natural science, rather illustrating that due to my nature and my training I find it easy to poke a lot of holes in theistic evolution without even trying.

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I was a creationist when I was a Christian. Of course, once I realized that the Bible is severely flawed, I no longer viewed Genesis as authoritative. I realized that I had been stupid to assume that scientists were merely trying to find a way to rationalize God away.

 

I'm no expert on evolution, but from what I have read after leaving the Christian myth, I realize that creationists repeatedly misrepresent evolution in their attacks. Evolution best fits the evidence we have, and it's certainly a far better explanation than the claim that an invisible being just poofed everything into existence in essentially its current form.

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I make my living as an analyst so this is kind of my area of expertise. TE basically states as I understand it that evolution did happen, but god guided the process;

 

What is your area of expertise as an analyst? "As I understand it" is a statement of opinion, that doesn't sound like epertise to me. Just sayin'

 

Sorry that was unclear on my part. Professionally I am a problem solver and simply, it's my job to break both software and arguments to find their weaknesses. I was not trying to claim expertise in any field of natural science, rather illustrating that due to my nature and my training I find it easy to poke a lot of holes in theistic evolution without even trying.

 

Thanks for clarifying, however you are basing your analysis on your understanding if TE. As a scientist I for one fully understood the various different scientific theories, but yes at that point I also believed God was involved in the process. Genisis was allegorical to me, but that did not affect my faith.

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I make my living as an analyst so this is kind of my area of expertise. TE basically states as I understand it that evolution did happen, but god guided the process;

 

What is your area of expertise as an analyst? "As I understand it" is a statement of opinion, that doesn't sound like epertise to me. Just sayin'

 

Sorry that was unclear on my part. Professionally I am a problem solver and simply, it's my job to break both software and arguments to find their weaknesses. I was not trying to claim expertise in any field of natural science, rather illustrating that due to my nature and my training I find it easy to poke a lot of holes in theistic evolution without even trying.

 

Thanks for clarifying, however you are basing your analysis on your understanding if TE. As a scientist I for one fully understood the various different scientific theories, but yes at that point I also believed God was involved in the process. Genisis was allegorical to me, but that did not affect my faith.

 

I'd like then to pose the same question to you which I posed to Thurisaz earlier. I'm not sure whether you're a full blown atheist or whether you still hold any belief in a deity, but what is/was you absolute best evidence or argument for god being involved in the process?

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Guest Valk0010

Yes there's still "a number of problems" trying to align TE with the christian gawd... doesn't automatically hold true in the generic sense though

 

Give me the absolute best argument for TE, besides "I'm a Christian and I accept evolution as valid science, so I guess I believe in TE". I quite simply have never heard anything more elaborate than what I just wrote.

Just about anything francis collins has said on the subject is as far as I am aware the best arguements for TE I have ever seen.
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Yes there's still "a number of problems" trying to align TE with the christian gawd... doesn't automatically hold true in the generic sense though

 

Give me the absolute best argument for TE, besides "I'm a Christian and I accept evolution as valid science, so I guess I believe in TE". I quite simply have never heard anything more elaborate than what I just wrote.

Just about anything francis collins has said on the subject is as far as I am aware the best arguements for TE I have ever seen.

 

Such as?

 

A casual glance at the wiki page for his book says god was not even involved whatsoever in our evolution. It says god started the process and then stepped away to go play golf for 3.5 billion years. By definition this is no different from Darwinian evolution by natural selection.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ence_for_Belief

BioLogos rests on the following premises:[7]

  1. The universe was created by God, approximately 14 billion years ago.
     
  2. The properties of the universe appear to have been precisely tuned for life.
     
  3. While the precise mechanism of the origin of life on earth remains unknown, it is possible that the development of living organisms was part of God's original creation plan.
     
  4. Once life began, no special further interventions by God were required.
     
  5. Humans are part of this process, sharing a common ancestor with the great apes.
     
  6. Humans are unique in ways that defy evolutionary explanations and point to our spiritual nature. This includes the existence of the knowledge of right and wrong and the search for God.

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