pratt Posted March 28, 2013 Author Share Posted March 28, 2013 which is not to be taken as factual truth? factual Truth? the criminals werent there? jesus werent there? there were not n paraise on that day? kindly explain yourself,,,, FACTUAL TRUTH,,,,,,,wow,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 This is a story not necessary meant to be taken as factual truth. The blood and guts probably make it NC-17 rated. Why we torture 6 year olds with the blood and guts is beyond me. However, the beauty in the story is in how the unrighteousness can be made righteous and that there are indeed second chances. Our worst deeds don't have to define who we are There is a problem with taking parts of the Bible as factual and other parts as not factual. Where do we draw the line? Where some preacher says? What is the criterion of factual when we are discussing 2000 year old literature? Needless to say, we Ex-C's don't see "the beauty in the story" like that. One of the thieves went to paradise but we presume the other went to hell. If God were merciful and compassionate why didn't both thieves go to paradise regardless of what was said? We don't need this little display to inform us that our worst deeds don't define us. Also, the idea of "unrighteousness" in general is more than questionable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted March 28, 2013 Share Posted March 28, 2013 "that's why I tease some on here, tease and pray, that's all I can do for now." There is at least one more thing you can do: Begin a search for the truth about god and the bible, instead of naively believing anything it says, which belief has caused so much unnecessary agony in this world. Put your fear of death behind you and use intellectual honesty as your guide. You'll be amazed at how refreshing it is to be intellectually honest, no matter what you discover. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnb2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 which is not to be taken as factual truth? factual Truth? the criminals werent there? jesus werent there? there were not n paraise on that day? kindly explain yourself,,,, FACTUAL TRUTH,,,,,,,wow,,,, I think marcus Borg does a very good job addressing this issue so I will defer a review of his book, "Reading the bible again for the first time" which can be found at http://www.necessaryprose.com/borg.htm In summary, The point that Borg is making is that there is a truth contained in metaphor. So while the bible may not be a factually correct account of the life of Christ, there are certain truths about our lives, our natures, and the divine contained within. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoopyFrood42 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 which is not to be taken as factual truth? factual Truth? the criminals werent there? jesus werent there? there were not n paraise on that day? kindly explain yourself,,,, FACTUAL TRUTH,,,,,,,wow,,,, I think marcus Borg does a very good job addressing this issue so I will defer a review of his book, "Reading the bible again for the first time" which can be found at http://www.necessaryprose.com/borg.htm In summary, The point that Borg is making is that there is a truth contained in metaphor. So while the bible may not be a factually correct account of the life of Christ, there are certain truths about our lives, our natures, and the divine contained within. Ok but if the Bible doesn't have a correct account of the life of Jesus then how can we trust that it holds any other truth? If the Bible can't get the life of the New Testament's most important character right then how in the world can it get any metaphysical truths right? You must lay the foundation before you can build up and it seems like the life of Jesus would be the foundation and everything else would come after that. If you can't get the life of your SAVIOR right then any other "lessons" the Bible claims, metaphorical or actual, cannot be trusted. And if the Bible gets a few things wrong about Jesus then I can't fully trust it to get anything else about Jesus 100% right. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pratt Posted March 30, 2013 Author Share Posted March 30, 2013 which is not to be taken as factual truth? factual Truth? the criminals werent there? jesus werent there? there were not n paraise on that day? kindly explain yourself,,,, FACTUAL TRUTH,,,,,,,wow,,,, I think marcus Borg does a very good job addressing this issue so I will defer a review of his book, "Reading the bible again for the first time" which can be found at http://www.necessaryprose.com/borg.htmIn summary, The point that Borg is making is that there is a truth contained in metaphor. So while the bible may not be a factually correct account of the life of Christ, there are certain truths about our lives, our natures, and the divine contained within. You would be burnt on the stake as a heretic in the days of old. Kindly enlighten us which are the correct account and incorrect account of life of jesus. I get better metaphors from chicken soup and stephen king if that is the case. Certain truths about our lives/natures and divine,,,, wow ,,,,,,, metaphors,,,,, wow,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnb2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 You would be burnt on the stake as a heretic in the days of old. Agreed and so would the beliefs and practices of most Christians in the modern world. However, that does not mean there is no inherent value to an understanding of Christian heritage and spiritual practices to some people. Kindly enlighten us which are the correct account and incorrect account of life of jesus. I get better metaphors from chicken soup and stephen king if that is the case. Certain truths about our lives/natures and divine,,,, wow ,,,,,,, metaphors,,,,, wow,,,, I think you have hit upon one of the major stumbling blocks for evangelical Christianity in the 21st century, which is that there is no intellectually honest way to claim that Christianity has a monopoly on truth. People are finding wisdom within global philosophical and faith traditions. I, personally, find meaning within the Christian tradition. It illuminates to me images of new life, rebirth, and the endless quest in search of the Holy. Clearly I am not a Christian in the same way its founders were and clearly I am not a Christian in the same way most churches present the faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnb2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Ok but if the Bible doesn't have a correct account of the life of Jesus then how can we trust that it holds any other truth? If the Bible can't get the life of the New Testament's most important character right then how in the world can it get any metaphysical truths right? You must lay the foundation before you can build up and it seems like the life of Jesus would be the foundation and everything else would come after that. If you can't get the life of your SAVIOR right then any other "lessons" the Bible claims, metaphorical or actual, cannot be trusted. And if the Bible gets a few things wrong about Jesus then I can't fully trust it to get anything else about Jesus 100% right. The bible is only useful to the degree to which it illuminates spiritual meaning to an individual. The story of Christ is only useful to the degree it brings us closer to the divine. I am confused by your post because you are holding the Gospel writers up to a standard of inerrancy. Many Christians make that claim. It is hogwash. I understand that there were political and historical forces at work driving the messaging of the Gospel writers. Even taking the spin into account, however, does not mean scripture is of no value, at least to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoopyFrood42 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Ok but if the Bible doesn't have a correct account of the life of Jesus then how can we trust that it holds any other truth? If the Bible can't get the life of the New Testament's most important character right then how in the world can it get any metaphysical truths right? You must lay the foundation before you can build up and it seems like the life of Jesus would be the foundation and everything else would come after that. If you can't get the life of your SAVIOR right then any other "lessons" the Bible claims, metaphorical or actual, cannot be trusted. And if the Bible gets a few things wrong about Jesus then I can't fully trust it to get anything else about Jesus 100% right. The bible is only useful to the degree to which it illuminates spiritual meaning to an individual. The story of Christ is only useful to the degree it brings us closer to the divine. I am confused by your post because you are holding the Gospel writers up to a standard of inerrancy. Many Christians make that claim. It is hogwash. I understand that there were political and historical forces at work driving the messaging of the Gospel writers. Even taking the spin into account, however, does not mean scripture is of no value, at least to me. So then does this mean that truth isn't a necessity when being led closer to the divine? It seems to me that political and historical spin necessarily releases the story of Jesus from any divine truth by turning it into a man-made version of divine truth. That doesn't mean that it has no value at all, just that, to me, it has no value concerning divine truth. It just seems like something divine wouldn't be tainted by alternative political motivations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBeast Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 which is not to be taken as factual truth? factual Truth? the criminals werent there? jesus werent there? there were not n paraise on that day? kindly explain yourself,,,, FACTUAL TRUTH,,,,,,,wow,,,, In summary, The point that Borg is making is that there is a truth contained in metaphor. So while the bible may not be a factually correct account of the life of Christ, there are certain truths about our lives, our natures, and the divine contained within. No doubt. Religion was a form of psychology and knowledge presented in the language and understanding of its time. The only part I'd disagree with is that the bible contains any useful truth about the divine. Anything beyond knowledge has historically been assigned to divine origins, so god is getting smaller and smaller as knowledge progresses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnb2013 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 So then does this mean that truth isn't a necessity when being led closer to the divine? It seems to me that political and historical spin necessarily releases the story of Jesus from any divine truth by turning it into a man-made version of divine truth. That doesn't mean that it has no value at all, just that, to me, it has no value concerning divine truth. It just seems like something divine wouldn't be tainted by alternative political motivations. I am saying that we can't be so black and white in our search for truth and in our search for that which is Holy. Thanks to the nonsense of much of modern day Chritianity, we expect the search for God to be easy, black and white, and we reduce God to an idealized parent/boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse. However, just because the bible and the Chistian faith are often used in codependent and anti-intellectual ways does not mean that this is the only way to engage them. The alternative is the hard task of finding what indeed connects and what does not connect to us. If the bible is impeding one's search for that which is meaningful and true, then throw it out. However, I am suggesting that the bible can be used in a meaningful and constructive way for some people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 Why shouldn't the search for god be easy? Easy is precisely what it should be. Why have scripture so arcane and confusing that only a few can figure it out? The bible consists of three kinds of scripture: metaphor, fiction and bullshit, but not a single word from god. So trying to figure out which is which is a waste of time. bill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoopyFrood42 Posted March 30, 2013 Share Posted March 30, 2013 So then does this mean that truth isn't a necessity when being led closer to the divine? It seems to me that political and historical spin necessarily releases the story of Jesus from any divine truth by turning it into a man-made version of divine truth. That doesn't mean that it has no value at all, just that, to me, it has no value concerning divine truth. It just seems like something divine wouldn't be tainted by alternative political motivations. I am saying that we can't be so black and white in our search for truth and in our search for that which is Holy. Thanks to the nonsense of much of modern day Chritianity, we expect the search for God to be easy, black and white, and we reduce God to an idealized parent/boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse. However, just because the bible and the Chistian faith are often used in codependent and anti-intellectual ways does not mean that this is the only way to engage them. The alternative is the hard task of finding what indeed connects and what does not connect to us. If the bible is impeding one's search for that which is meaningful and true, then throw it out. However, I am suggesting that the bible can be used in a meaningful and constructive way for some people. I agree that truth isn't necessarily black and white. It may be black and white sometimes, but many times it isn't. It sounds like you support more of an individual relativistic truth than an across the board truth. If we can use the parts of the Bible that speak to us and throw the rest out, or throw the Bible out altogether, then how would the Bible be any different than any other book, fiction or nonfiction? Are you saying that divine truth can be found in anything? That it just depends on the person? Isn't this at odds with the Old Testament view that Yahweh is the one true god and the New Testament view that faith in* Jesus and the resurrection is the way to salvation? EDIT: *in, not is Why shouldn't the search for god be easy? Easy is precisely what it should be. Why have scripture so arcane and confusing that only a few can figure it out? The bible consists of three kinds of scripture: metaphor, fiction and bullshit, but not a single word from god. So trying to figure out which is which is a waste of time. bill I also agree with this. Matthew 7:7-8 says "(7)Ask, and it will be given you; search, and you will find; knock, and the door will be opened for you. (8)For everyone who asks receives, and everyone who searches finds, and for everyone who knocks, the door will be opened." (New Revised Standard Version) It is made pretty clear here that all you have to do is ask and you will be given the truth. That seems pretty easy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
♦ ficino ♦ Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Hi Johnb2013, for what it's worth, my take is that when someone looks for things that are spiritually valuable in the Bible but rejects much of what the Bible asserts on the literal level, one winds up importing insights from other sources into one's interpretation of the Bible. So why not just go straight to the other sources and drop the Bible, since there's so much contradictory, absurd and immoral stuff in it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 HoopyFrood42: I'm not clear on what you mean. Matthew 7:7-8 says it's easy because if you seek you will find. But that is definitely not true, even though it says that it's so. Finding a coherent path to god is anything but easy as testified to by the hundreds of protestant denominations in the christian religion alone. Or by reading the bible itself with all its contradictions. Indeed,it is impossible because, there is no god, in all probability. But if there is a god, he/she most certainly would not be the killer whale god described in the OT or the NT. But one can create a multiple number of different kinds of gods from the bible, each with his/her own flock of sheep and each inconsistent with the others. bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoopyFrood42 Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 Bill, that was really more of a response to Johnb2013 when he said that we expect the search for god to be easy and black and white but that's it's not. I was pointing out that the Bible, which he seems to be claiming holds at least some divine truth, clearly states that all you have to do is ask and the truth will be revealed to you, so if biblegod exists then he shouldn't be so hard to find. The fact that so many people have gone searching for biblegod and found nothing is just another blow to the idea that there is any type of divine truth to the Bible or its god. I think I probably could have been more clear in the point I was trying to make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenstar Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 What happens is this, people need answers because life is scary and death is a reality - probably stems from self-preservation instincts from way back, KNOWING is better than not knowing when you are about to be eaten by a saber-toothed cat. Humans have invented religion to give them a sense of KNOWING. Each person has their own morals and ethics and they live by them, no matter what their particular affiliation, BUT the old texts give them the 'appeal to authority' they need in their minds to support that sense of KNOWING. (because trusting ones self is scary.. does one really KNOW?) Every single religious person I have ever met cherry picks their texts to conform with their own inner code (or what they wish was their own inner code) which is why we get so many different interpretations.. it's also why you hear christians talk about 'karma' and other pagan ideas that are not in their bible.. it 'feels' right and therefore is internalized and added to their inner codes. (one example). The entire Bible, Koran, Rig Vedas, whatever... are all metaphor and allegory with some history thrown in... and that is why no one can exactly say which verses are literal and which are not... BUT, each individual, according to his feelings, interprets them as either literal or allegorical, to support his own sense of security in the world - his 'mental map' of reality. There is wisdom in every religion, but it comes from regular people figuring things out and writing them down... it's putting the authority of "god' behind it that messes things up. Wisdom is not something floating in the aether from a divine source, it's humans figuring things out through trial and error and sharing that with one another. It comes from living, from experience... not from god. 'Jesus' said some good things, he also said some really crappy things (or at least these things were attributed to Jesus, whatever) but what it comes down to is someone thought up the concept that loving one's neighbor is better than killing them... nice idea - but it doesn't need the authority of the divine to be a good idea. Like art, and science... good ideas should stand on their own. Rejecting one's family to follow a cult leader is a bad idea... but the same litmus test applies, and once you take the appeal to authority away from it then it can be tested against experience and reality. The Buddha said some really marvelous things too.. So did Krishna, etc... funny, the really good ideas all end up being pretty much the same (peace, love, etc..) could it be that we, as a species, have figured some things out through trial and error across the globe? Now, can we drop the appeals to authority and give human beings the credit they deserve for figuring things out? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
QualifiedCommenter Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 The Buddha said some really marvelous things too.. So did Krishna, etc... funny, the really good ideas all end up being pretty much the same (peace, love, etc..) could it be that we, as a species, have figured some things out through trial and error across the globe? Now, can we drop the appeals to authority and give human beings the credit they deserve for figuring things out? Morals and ethics as we know them are a direct result of natural selection. Human beings are not the only creatures seen to have morals. Humans have the most powerful morals, but that's because we have the most powerful and logical brains on the planet. Morality and ethics are a result of logic and good thinking regarding how we ought to treat each other to maximize our survival value. There is no deity required to form concepts of what is right and wrong. This explanation also explains why Jesus, Buddha, Krishna, etc... had so many of the same, good ideas. (It certainly works a lot better than assuming that everybody stole their morals directly from the Bible. A lot of people genuinely claim that.) These two videos explain it pretty well. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JAty00IjLM&list=FLqF-hpgaN-7NPBkCSwflnQA&index=12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RipVanWinkle Posted March 31, 2013 Share Posted March 31, 2013 HoopyFrood42: Thanks for clearing it up. Sometimes you have to put things on a 5th grade level for me. Ravenstar: You truly ought to consider writing a book on Xtianity and your experiences from it. If writing talent has anything to do with it you'll be an instant success. No kidding. One thing I question though. You said that all the bible, koran, etc. are metaphor and allegory and some history. But much of the NT and particularly Paul's epistles seem to make an strong effort to convince us that they are not metaphor, but factual. So do the Gospels, at least Matthew , Mark and Luke. What do you think? bill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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