pratt Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 How to be saved? Simple. 1.) Say a sinners prayer. 2.) Accept an altar call. 3.) Live in repentance. 4.) Steps 1 through 3 with the addition of Baptism. 5.) Steps one through 4, but you must be immersed three times. 6.) Negate steps 1 through 5, you are saved by grace. 7.) Negate 1 through 6, you can't prove you're saved without speaking in tongues. 8.) Negate 1 through 7, speaking in tongues is demonic influence. 9.) Negate prior entries if you aren't KJV only. 10.) None of the above matter if you aren't one of the 144,000 elect. ... If Jesus desires all to be saved, can we please get a very clear guideline on how salvation is achieved? Even the Bible is a little torn on 'faith vs. works.' I think you have missed the part where IF YOU DENY ME Blah blah Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Oh I missed a whole shitload, but I wanted to end on a 10 point list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Oh I missed a whole shitload, but I wanted to end on a 10 point list. Actually, I don't think you really missed much. If you did, I would like to know what was missed, but the whole detail of what happens if not saved wouldn't exactly need to be in the 10 points. Maybe there could be a "fine print" section at the end that says "IF you do not follow the directions above to be saved you will BURN!!!1" To deny the Bible god would mean not meeting any of the requirements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 You cant be saved. Literally the bible says as much. Every path to heaven excludes the other you cant combine them. like "he who does not reject his mother father sister and brother cannot be my followers" vs "You must hold all of the commandments to enter the kingdom of heaven" well there is a commandment in there somewhere oh yeah RESPECT THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER lol you cant win in Christianity everyone is going to hell I like the way you out that. I've seen much the same thing myself, and it's one big reason why I couldn't really buy into it even as a kid. But I never expressed it exactly this way: taken at face value, there IS no viable path to salvation described in the bible. You can't follow any one 'path' without violating multiple commands, rules, doctrines, etc. You were smarter than I when you were young. I bought into it and then found myself in an endless loop of guilt and fear, which is I think what makes the xian meme so successful in the first place. It traps its adherents keeping them dependent never letting them get comfortable or complacent. What really started to break the loop for myself was when I really started to think about the contradiction between the 'eat drink and be merry because we all just end up dying' that is I think the theme of Ecclesiastes, and Paul's 'take up your cross and suffer.' It's such a stark contradiction that it caused me to start questioning everything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 You cant be saved. Literally the bible says as much. Every path to heaven excludes the other you cant combine them. like "he who does not reject his mother father sister and brother cannot be my followers" vs "You must hold all of the commandments to enter the kingdom of heaven" well there is a commandment in there somewhere oh yeah RESPECT THY FATHER AND THY MOTHER lol you cant win in Christianity everyone is going to hell I like the way you out that. I've seen much the same thing myself, and it's one big reason why I couldn't really buy into it even as a kid. But I never expressed it exactly this way: taken at face value, there IS no viable path to salvation described in the bible. You can't follow any one 'path' without violating multiple commands, rules, doctrines, etc. You were smarter than I when you were young. I bought into it and then found myself in an endless loop of guilt and fear, which is I think what makes the xian meme so successful in the first place. It traps its adherents keeping them dependent never letting them get comfortable or complacent. What really started to break the loop for myself was when I really started to think about the contradiction between the 'eat drink and be merry because we all just end up dying' that is I think the theme of Ecclesiastes, and Paul's 'take up your cross and suffer.' It's such a stark contradiction that it caused me to start questioning everything else. Maybe that was poor phrasing on my part. It isn't that I never bought into it- I definitely tried to follow the rules and tried to believe. But I had serious doubts even as a kid, and dropped it altogether when I was 13. But it wasn't all about logical contradictions. Those were important, but I should also be thankful that I was raised Wesleyan. Unlike lots of Baptists who are required only to believe and then can pretty much do whatever the hell they want- we Wesleyans were required to follow impossible standards of behavior, otherwise our souls were in jeopardy. It's a HUGE social handicap for a 13 year old kid to not be able to lie or cuss. And remember that verse about how looking at a woman is committing adultery in your heart- and that other one about how you'd better pluck out your eye and cut off your hand if it causes you to sin? I was a 13 year old boy... practically drooling whenever a girl walked by. And here I'm told that I'm putting my soul at risk every time I look at a girl's ass, have lustful thoughts, or pull on my wiener? Something had to give. I can only assume that other Wesleyans have a higher capacity for cognitive dissonance than I do. And if I had been raised in a strain of the cult that was easier to adhere to (Baptist?), I might have stayed with it into adulthood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I can only assume that other Wesleyans have a higher capacity for cognitive dissonance than I do. You mean lower? I was raised with impossible standards too. It literally kept me awake at night, but didn't seem to bother anyone else around me. I suppose this dissonance is what separates we who deconverted from the minions that go happily about their lives not really being affected by the contradiction between their beliefs and their own nature. It seems the dissonance in most peeks out only when someone bluntly forces them to face the contradictions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 I can only assume that other Wesleyans have a higher capacity for cognitive dissonance than I do. You mean lower? I was raised with impossible standards too. It literally kept me awake at night, but didn't seem to bother anyone else around me. I suppose this dissonance is what separates we who deconverted from the minions that go happily about their lives not really being affected by the contradiction between their beliefs and their own nature. It seems the dissonance in most peeks out only when someone bluntly forces them to face the contradictions. Lower? Higher? I dunno. Either way, they appear to be able to live with obvious contradictions far more easily than I can. In my church there were quite a few people who appeared to do a pretty decent job of living up to those impossible standards (my dad being one of them). Not saying they were perfect, but they gave it a damn good effort. And it thoroughly fucked them up. Those few church-kids of my generation who stayed in the cult are now weird and isolated- lots of them never get married because they're too socially fucked up. Lots of the older men in the church end up with estranged kids and/or divorces- this church seems to run off women and children. In my dad's case, these impossible behavioral standards create a nasty synergy with is bipolar disorder. It's a chicken/egg question- hard to say whether it was religion or mental illness that came first. But both played a part in making his life (and his family's by proxy) MUCH harder than it had to be. There were also people in the church who lived like Good Wesleyans on Sunday... and did whatever the hell they wanted otherwise. I envied them, but I just couldn't do that. I think that for myself and a lot of us Exchristians, we 'fell from grace' because we actually took it seriously. If we'd been capable of half-assing it like lots of people do, we might still be in the cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vigile Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 Yeah, I think lower. Dissonance, as I understand it, is that reaction or feeling that makes you angry or otherwise uncomfortable when you are faced with contradicting values. If it's lower, you are less sensitive to it and thus more content to live with the contradiction. In my church there were quite a few people who appeared to do a pretty decent job of living up to those impossible standards (my dad being one of them). Not saying they were perfect, but they gave it a damn good effort. That'd be my experience too, but I suspect despite the good intentions, they were as successful as they appeared. All of us grandkids, for instance, knew my grandfather used his satellite dish to tune in a fuzzy version of the Playboy channel. He'd have been horrified that we knew, but he wasn't very good at covering his tracks, so it was inevitable. I think most people in church genuinely try and are for the most part living up to the values they profess, but the problem starts when those values can't be lined up with reality. You can't deny sexual urge without great consequence and it's impossible to live life without even telling white lies on a regular basis, otherwise the fabric of relationships fall apart, etc... Nevertheless, I think most don't notice. It's not hypocrisy, but rather lack of introspection or something of the sort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blake Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's a sick and sad thing, making a young man believe he's on a fast train hellbound for thinking lustfully, as though there is something inherently evil about natural human desire. Christianity teaches that that which makes us human is wrong. I'm so glad I don't buy it anymore. I try not to be a stark raving hedonist ( all the time ), but I no longer feel a sense of "evil" or "dread" when my natural brain chemistry says "behold! her hourglass figure doth cause a stirring within my loins!" I'm not sure why my brain speaks in ye olde english... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeCycle Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 The subject of this thread is what started the avalanche of doubts within my simple head. How to be saved? Well, in my little Christian world, it pivoted upon belief. There's so many problems with using belief as the determining factor of salvation and the "fact" that God was/is a just god using such an unjust mechanism started making my mind go haywire. It no longer could compute salvation at all. Then the whole of Christianity started to follow. Nope, none of it made any reasonable sense anymore and I could no longer cast my reason aside. As a side note.... Shortly thereafter, I started cussing a lot because I didn't do it much at all growing up. It was sinful. But now I know I have a lot of fucking catching up to do. Shiiiiiiiiiiiit. So that's why I cuss a lot here. You'll have to fucking forgive me. But have to get this shit outta my god damn system. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's a sick and sad thing, making a young man believe he's on a fast train hellbound for thinking lustfully, as though there is something inherently evil about natural human desire. Christianity teaches that that which makes us human is wrong. I'm so glad I don't buy it anymore. I try not to be a stark raving hedonist ( all the time ), but I no longer feel a sense of "evil" or "dread" when my natural brain chemistry says "behold! her hourglass figure doth cause a stirring within my loins!" I'm not sure why my brain speaks in ye olde english... One day I told God I was going to continue to lust after women and he would have to just deal with it. I consider this the day I completely cut ties with Christianity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
◊ crazyguy123 ◊ Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 It's a sick and sad thing, making a young man believe he's on a fast train hellbound for thinking lustfully, as though there is something inherently evil about natural human desire. Christianity teaches that that which makes us human is wrong. I'm so glad I don't buy it anymore. I try not to be a stark raving hedonist ( all the time ), but I no longer feel a sense of "evil" or "dread" when my natural brain chemistry says "behold! her hourglass figure doth cause a stirring within my loins!" I'm not sure why my brain speaks in ye olde english... One day I told God I was going to continue to lust after women and he would have to just deal with it. I consider this the day I completely cut ties with Christianity. You still believed when you made the decision to continue lusting? You must have been a brave person. But it doesn't sound as crazy as the last prayer I said, not knowing if the Bible god was real or would even hear it, which included "Fuck you" in it and I accused him of being a monster that I could never force myself to love. That probably took some bravery too, but I wasn't really thinking logically at the time. I was running purely on emotion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
par4dcourse Posted May 16, 2013 Share Posted May 16, 2013 No one knows for sure what happens when we take the dirt nap, but being dead has the most proof. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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