Journey Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Had an intense conversation lastnight with my husband regarding his belief that the sun rotates around the earth as the bible indicates rather than what 100% of the best minds in science have verifiable proof that the earth rotates around the sun - bein the greater mass and center of gravity just as the earth has the greater mass and center of gravity to the moon. He is just so set on the bible being inerrant that it has to be true, only because 'the bible says it so he believes it' even if it makes no logical or scientific sense. I guess he feels if the bible isn't true on that then it coudl be untrue in many areas so he holds to this belief blindly and without logical reasoning. I asked him, if it was proven without a doubt that the earth did indeed go around the sun, how would that affect him? He wouldn't answer, just kept turning it around to explain why he believed as he did. He is so close minded, not even open to the possibility that science is right in this. I find it so frustrating talking to him and says he's praying for me which i find quite condescending actually as that concludes that he has the truth and therefore i don't and i need to come back to it because i'm wrong. I know this is a huge emotional issue for him more than a scientific reasoning one. Because at a vulnerable time in his life when he was searching for answers he believes the god of the bible spoke to him and told him that he loved him, he believes it line hook and sinker without even rationalizing what voice he heard, what god spoke or was it all in his head. Many people hear voices speaking to them, does that mean that god is always speaking to them too even if this voice tells them to do something irrational or weird? It is impossible to reason with someone who already has a biased belief system that they base everything they hear on and judge what's being said or proven by that premise. The bible is such a faulty premise to base ones scientific beliefs on. If anyone has a good video or website I could refer him to, please fire away, altho I doubt it will do any good since he's already made up his mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 What? I never heard of an adult that could deny scientific facts that are known for over 400 years. If he believes everything written in the bible then he must believe that the earth is flat and that there is waters above heaven. Genesis 1 6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.8: And God called the firmament Heaven. he must believe that the world looks similar to this http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/OTcosmos.jpg 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Babylonian Dream Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 I thought we as a species were past this. I guess I was wrong. I guess I gave humanity too much credit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 The bible also says that pi=3. Hand him something round and a tape measure, and ask him where that extra .1415926535897932384... came from. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
midniterider Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Had an intense conversation lastnight with my husband regarding his belief that the sun rotates around the earth as the bible indicates rather than what 100% of the best minds in science have verifiable proof that the earth rotates around the sun - bein the greater mass and center of gravity just as the earth has the greater mass and center of gravity to the moon. He is just so set on the bible being inerrant that it has to be true, only because 'the bible says it so he believes it' even if it makes no logical or scientific sense. I guess he feels if the bible isn't true on that then it coudl be untrue in many areas so he holds to this belief blindly and without logical reasoning. I asked him, if it was proven without a doubt that the earth did indeed go around the sun, how would that affect him? He wouldn't answer, just kept turning it around to explain why he believed as he did. He is so close minded, not even open to the possibility that science is right in this. I find it so frustrating talking to him and says he's praying for me which i find quite condescending actually as that concludes that he has the truth and therefore i don't and i need to come back to it because i'm wrong. I know this is a huge emotional issue for him more than a scientific reasoning one. Because at a vulnerable time in his life when he was searching for answers he believes the god of the bible spoke to him and told him that he loved him, he believes it line hook and sinker without even rationalizing what voice he heard, what god spoke or was it all in his head. Many people hear voices speaking to them, does that mean that god is always speaking to them too even if this voice tells them to do something irrational or weird? It is impossible to reason with someone who already has a biased belief system that they base everything they hear on and judge what's being said or proven by that premise. The bible is such a faulty premise to base ones scientific beliefs on. If anyone has a good video or website I could refer him to, please fire away, altho I doubt it will do any good since he's already made up his mind Christian ignorance: If the voice in my head tells me something it is god speaking to me. If the voice in your head tells you something that contradicts the voice in my head then it is Satan in your head speaking to you. This is an implicit attitude by Christians based on nothing, that they are right and you are wrong. :-) More Christian ignorance: It is simple, when I pray to God, only God answers, because well, I said so. When you pray to God, somehow Satan infiltrates the spiritual communication network and feeds you a Satanic answer, because well, I said so. We both pray to God but your communication link is corrupt because well, I said so.... :-) Some of the things in the inerrant bible I arbitrarily follow because it is the word of God. Other things in the inerrant bible I generally ignore because when it comes right down to it I want to live exactly the same way that non-Christians live and obeying God's word in some of these OT scriptures would land me in jail and I am not willing to go to jail for my God. I can lookyou in the eye and with a straight face tell you I am following the word of God as I completely ignore the word of God. ----------------------- Wouldn't it be fun to take 1000 Christians, ask them to pray for an answer to to some question, write down the answer and then discuss the 1000 conflicting answers that god gave them all? It might be a bit of fun to start prefacing things with "God has revealed to me ...." as in "God has revealed to me that the earth actually circles the sun..." , "God has revealed to me that the bible is corrupt." :-) I'll pray for you. (We know what this phrase means . haha) 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Journey, if he's such a bonehead then I'm afraid there's nothing you can do. Unless some doubt starts to grow in his mind in secrecy, then it's theoretically possible to widen the cracks. Such people, as I understand it, think the authoritarian way. They determine whether a claim is wrong or right solely on its origin (who told me that?) instead based on facts and evidence. He speaks a different brain language, so to say. Sadly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 It doesn't appear to me that the issue is whether the earth revolves around the sun or whether the sun revolves around the earth. The issue seems to be the voice which he attributes to God. If I am right, then the most direct route would be to address that voice he heard. Why don't you try asking him to give you the details of that experience. Listen in a non-judgmental way to everything he says about that experience. Try following up by asking him what exactly it was that has convinced him that the voice was God's voice and go from there. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardus Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Getting someone that committed to doubt is very difficult. It usually can only happen by small steps. You might try introducing him to easy concepts of how to live without God and to some pretty incontrovertible contradictions in the Bible. For the latter I suggest something like: What did Judas do with the 30 pieces of silver he got? (Matt 27:5 or Acts 1:18)? There are many others like that. Try the 101 contradictions thread in these very forums. Also be truly prepared to fail and have him want to dump you. It happened to me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 Thank you for your input everyone, I am only starting to discuss these touchy issues with him even after 5-6 years of him knowing that we are not on the same page at all. He has not wanted me to bring up these things even though I have longed to share my discoveries with him over the years as it has been so enlightening and freeing to me. He actually told me at one point that he didnt' want me to share my discoveries with him so the changes in my life and world view are like a big 'elephant in the room'. In general, we get along well but this is a huge area of disagreement and unshared part of my life and so I decided I was going to be more open and start telling him more of what I am seeing and asking him questions. He gets very defensive and it is hard to continue. He stopped going to church around the same time I did (3 years ago) but still continues to believe the bible. He is somewhat disillusioned with churches and the political / control games that go on but other than that is still very much a fundamentalist. It's strange how one can see willful blindness in others but fail to see it in oneself! In some ways i wish he would be willing to have it out with me in these things as hidden stuff is just not healthy in a marriage and ours is suffering in more ways than one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 What? I never heard of an adult that could deny scientific facts that are known for over 400 years. If he believes everything written in the bible then he must believe that the earth is flat and that there is waters above heaven. Genesis 1 6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. he must believe that the world looks similar to this http://biologos.org/uploads/static-content/OTcosmos.jpg Interestingly enough - my husband is German too!! The country that has some of the best scientific and logical minds! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Journey Posted June 23, 2013 Author Share Posted June 23, 2013 The bible also says that pi=3. Hand him something round and a tape measure, and ask him where that extra .1415926535897932384... came from. where does the bible indicate this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 T He stopped going to church around the same time I did (3 years ago) but still continues to believe the bible. He is somewhat disillusioned with churches and the political / control games that go on but other than that is still very much a fundamentalist. The first thing that made my doubt my faith were the church and Christians. My mother used to tell me, when I complained about the fakeness and arrogance of our church members, that it is their human nature and that everybody sins. Makes sense, but just to a certain degree. Of course everybody makes mistakes, but shouldn't the christians be just a little better than the rest of the world. doesn't have god enough power to help them become better persons? Ask your husband why he thinks that people in church are so sinful and controlling if at least some/the most of them are real believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RankStranger Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 The bible also says that pi=3. Hand him something round and a tape measure, and ask him where that extra .1415926535897932384... came from. where does the bible indicate this? http://www.purplemath.com/modules/bibleval.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eugene39 Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Journey, You may find this interesting. http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ Are they serious? All of me hopes they are not, but I do remember reading just a couple of years ago that there is a Catholic sect in the Chicago area that still believes the Galileo was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Positivist Posted June 23, 2013 Share Posted June 23, 2013 Wow. That's the kind of believer I was. We are a bone-headed lot! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Journey, You may find this interesting. http://www.theflatearthsociety.org/cms/ Are they serious? All of me hopes they are not, but I do remember reading just a couple of years ago that there is a Catholic sect in the Chicago area that still believes the Galileo was wrong. People have been into space. How have they not discovered that the earth is flat?The most commonly accepted explanation of this is that the space agencies of the world are involved in a conspiracy faking space travel and exploration. This likely began during the Cold War's 'Space Race', in which the U.S.S.R and USA were obsessed with beating each other into space to the point that each faked their accomplishments in an attempt to keep pace with the other's supposed achievements. Since the end of the Cold War, however, the conspiracy is most likely motivated by greed rather than political gains, and using only some of their funding to continue to fake space travel saves a lot of money to embezzle for themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExCBooster Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Oh, dear, Journey. On the one hand, I do think that Thurisaz is right: there's no convincing people until they're ready to see it for themselves. On the other... it just adds so much more to life to have facts you can work with, and the cognitive dissonance in your husband's head has to be off the scale. Whenever he's at the beach, and can see things sinking lower than the horizon due the the curvature of the Earth, for example... Start him out easy on Copernicus, maybe? (Blerggh...) The problem, however, is that you're working with different standards of proof and systems of debate. While a lot of science books tell us what we know so far, they don't always do a good job of explaining how we know it. Science is a tool for learning more about our world. Science is (ideally): objective (it's not opinion), testable (something that can be put to the test), observable (something you can interact with), quantifiable (something that can be measured somehow), repeatable (you can tell someone else how to run your test, so they can see if they get the same result), and falsifiable (can be proven true or false). Anything that has some but not all of these things is pseudoscience. Phrenology, for example, is observable (people have bumps on their heads and personalities), and quantifiable (head bumps in defined places) but not testable, repeatable, objective or falsifiable. Scientific method steps. All of this amazing nine minute informational video, we have run the tests for. Our sun isn't even a very remarkable star. It's just sort of average. *sigh* I guess, my question is, in the face of the sheer awe-inspiring scale of our universe, I don't get why on Earth anyone would prefer the flat-earth-in-a-bottle Bible version. Compared to the real thing, Biblegod isn't very creative, or actually powerful. Only one measly planet, with one boring moon? Just the one boring sun? And a bunch of teeny, measly stars splattered in the sky? For what? Night lights? In the face of the jaw-dropping void of real space, it's less than peanuts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted June 24, 2013 Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2013 Flat-earthers... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Moderator florduh Posted June 24, 2013 Super Moderator Share Posted June 24, 2013 Sorry, that's the most stupid thing I've heard in a long time. Good luck with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralet Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 If he cant accept scientific facts, he wont believe any logic argumentation or websites about that topic. I would rather "attack" his belief in the bible or things he can see. Bible-contradictions, suffering in the world,not answered prayers, falsehood of the church,.... Read the bible together and not just the nice parts he probably likes to pick and ask him questions about Gods morality or the "divine inspiration" behind this bad-written book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesG Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 How about pointing to the Viking/voyager probes and the mars rover missions. this all would be impossible if the sun rotated around the earth. as to get to the colder planets that would put the sun between us and Jupiter in his world view and gravity from the sun would make it impossible for these probes to escape past the sun to get to the outer reaches of our solar system. Then again he might not believe in gravity so I don't know if that helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrNo Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 www.christianitydisproved.com has a section on the Bible, including links to pages with lots of Biblical contradictions. He can't believe two things at the same time can he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pantophobia Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 There are grown adults who don't believe the earth rotates around the sun and that the earth is flat? That is stupidity beyond comprehension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leopardus Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 Mentioned the bible contradictions thread earlier. This url should get you to it. http://www.ex-christian.net/topic/57125-101-bible-contradictions/?hl=contradictions I used to be a very good apologist in my christian days and I can't come up with anything for most of these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VacuumFlux Posted June 24, 2013 Share Posted June 24, 2013 If the model of the solar system is one of your main concerns, you can try to show him christians who don't think that's what the bible really means. Maybe he'll be less arguementative that way. I mean, even Ken Ham accepts that much! Maybe you can convince him that god didn't mean it as an absolute fact of science, but rather was talking to people in a way they understood. There's a good essay by Asimov call "The Relativity of Wrong" that says that for many uses, a flat earth is an acceptable and very useful approximation; maybe that sort of idea would help him be ok with looking into science without feeling like he's going against god? http://chem.tufts.edu/answersinscience/relativityofwrong.htm Of course, getting him to drop all the christian nonsense would be best, but if that's not realistic then maybe just getting him to be a more "liberal" christian would be an improvement to your relationship, so that he'd feel less threatened when you want to talk about stuff you've learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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