I'm a Christain. But it's the "sending to hell" thing that gets me still...

[Guest Rick]

Hello, I'm Rick. I'm not looking for arguments or anything. I've posted at CF before and talked to a lot of Christians like myself about the whole hell thing.

 

I believe in God and from what the New Testiment Jesus says we have to accept him to be able to make it. I can even deal with that, no problem...

 

What get's me is the "hell" thing. I'm only asking this here because people seem mature and I read a lot here before posting so don't be to cruel.

 

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Glad to be part of the community, opinions on this?

[aynalhub]

If we "hate" religion, then so do you and all Christians. You hate thousands upon thousands of them. Go give them all a chance, and then tell us we hate religion.

 

Hell is a concept that was incorporated more or less subconsciously from ideas that were common around the beginning of the Roman era. The Jewish religion does not have the concept, and it is not in the "Old" Testament.

 

Also, "hell" was a word used to translate many different words in the King James bible. It's a big urban legend.

[crazy-tiger]

One analogy that's been used here before is the whole "Rapist holds a gun to your head and gives you a choice... love him or be punished" thing.

It fits quite well with God's unconditional love (love me or go to hell) and also shows why some people would indeed choose to go to hell...

 

 

It'd be preferable to spending all eternity with that God.

[Vigile]

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Glad to be part of the community, opinions on this?

 

Thier answer doesn't compute.

 

According to them, God is all knowing (omniscient), and all powerful (omnipotent), and everywhere (omnipresent).

 

God knew before he created you that you would reject him and go to hell, therefore god sends you to hell.

 

God is powerful enough to create another plan of salvation that is less restrictive, he doesn't have to send you to hell, but he does anyway.

 

Hell is separation from god, but god is everywhere, therefore you cannot be separate from him.

 

 

More: God loves you like a father. Would you send your own sons or daughters to hell for any level of disobedience? Would you send anyone?

 

If so much is riding on your belief then why doesn't he appear before each one of us and show us his wounds the way he did Thomas? Why should we just believe without evidence and if we can't (even if we want to) then why must we suffer for eternity without hope, without relief?

 

If god is really loving, why would he create a system of such brutal punishment in the first place? If he can't stand sin, why can't he just mercifully anihilate sinners rather than send them to eternal torment?

 

These are just a few of the problems I have with the hell doctrine. Hope they help.

[NotBlinded]

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go.

I think that is a valid statement, but not what it appears to be. I think we do choose our own hell, but it's here on earth and lies in the decisions we make.

[saxyroze]

I always kind of thought the concept of hell was simply a scare tactic. Hell, Satan, demons…just tools to scare people away from sinning or straying of the righteous path. I thought this even when I was a Christian.

[Mr. Neil]

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

Well, first of all, I don't really hate religion. I'm not anti-culture. I find mystical thinking very charming, in its own little way. The only problem for me is that my brain refuses to allow me to accept incoherent concepts.

 

Now, the most disturbing thing about the whole doctrine of Hell is that the preconceived notion that we all grew up with, that bad people go to Hell and good people go to Heaven, is entirely false! It has nothing to do with who's good and who's bad. It has to do with who accepts Christ. In Christian theology, everyone is wicked and sinful anyway, so the only way to be good is to accept Christ!

 

Have you ever seen those murder investigation shows on A&E like Cold Case Files and City Confidential? Sometimes at the end of these shows, they'll be interviewing the murderer in jail, and he'll say that he's found Christ and that he's going to Heaven. Then the victim's family goes, "No, there's only place for murderers, and that's Hell!" Sorry, victim's family! The murderer's right! He's going to Heaven to be with Jesus. Ironically, if the murder victim didn't give his life to Jesus, he may find himself in Hell while his killer goes to Heaven!

 

According to God, all sins are equally an obomination. And since we are all sinners, and since all sin is deserving of Hell, there is no differentiation between the offenses. If you covet something, it's no different than if you kill a man. In fact, according to Christianity, we're born with original sin, so even if you manage to live a sinless life (which is impossible), original sin makes you a sinner anyway. But that's where salvation comes in. Salvation cleans you of sin. Again, there is no differentiation of severity between the sins in the Bible, so a murderer can be forgiven just the same as a thief.

 

There's only one unforgivable sin that will absolutely guaruntee a direct trip to Hell, and that is denial of the Holy Spirit. Luckily, neither Hell nor the Holy Spirit actually exist.

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

That's because you're a moral human being, and you recognize bullshit when you see it. Imagine if a mugger used that kind of logic on you. "If you don't gimme your wallet, then you are choosing to get pumped full of bullets!" Unfair? You betcha!

 

The entire Christian faith is built upon demonizing our very humanity. If you don't believe me, read the Bible.

[♦ nivek ♦]

Rick,

 

Welcome to ExChristian dot net.

 

There is a short list of things I *hate*, and persons are ususally not on the short list of "kiss my fat hairy ass".

 

I do not go about being an "athiest with an agenda", trying to say, "Oh lets steal Rick's salvation from him and make him an unrepentant reprobate and therein rejoice fucking over the xtain gohwD and all his minions!!!111ONEone!!!111"

 

On the other hand amigo, if you read things here and see that there is another side, another view of what you hold fast as faith. a rational view of things, rather than just a faith based "gohWd said it, I belive's itt an that settlez it!" then you may find the underpinning and foundations of your religious life are askew and not true.

(True as in carpenter and builders true, flat acccording to a level, flat and thus true, buildable upon)

 

Only thing I'll ask of you is to read as much as you can, feel free to peruse the public areas of the Boards and information links.

There is no hidden agenda here AFAIA, other than the EAC, and we're on Saturnalia/Festivus break...

 

You'll find that ExC is made up of a ton of individuals. There is no *general consensus* about what constitutes the *right way for everyone*.

 

I again welcome you here and hppe your time in proven useful.

 

kevin, Evile Hammer of Dave and Board Hauler of Garbage, L

[Taphophilia]

Hello, I'm Rick. I'm not looking for arguments or anything. I've posted at CF before and talked to a lot of Christians like myself about the whole hell thing.

 

I believe in God and from what the New Testiment Jesus says we have to accept him to be able to make it. I can even deal with that, no problem...

 

What get's me is the "hell" thing. I'm only asking this here because people seem mature and I read a lot here before posting so don't be to cruel.

 

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Glad to be part of the community, opinions on this?

 

Hi Rick,

 

Welcome. The only basic requirement the board has is that you use your brain.

 

The whole sin concept is hard to swallow, since as Mr. Neil said all sins are the same in degree. A little white lie you say to keep from hurting someones feelings is just as much of a sin as torturing a small child. How can a just God see these as the same degree of sin?

 

According to Christians Jefferey Dahmer and Ted Bundy are in heaven, while Princess Dianna and Ghandi are in hell. How is the Christian God a just judge? I don't know of any human judge who would require you pay with your life for failing to come to a complete stop at a stop sign.

 

Taph

[BigToe]

Hi Rick. I don't believe in Hell either. Granted, I also don't believe in Heaven or any sort of afterlife. I think Hell is just something people use to scare others into believing. And any sort of faith based on fear seems to me to be for the wrong reason anyway. Just like I think believing something because of some sort of reward you get for it is totally missing whatever point to belief there is anyway.

 

But say hell exists, I don't know that I know anyone who would actually choose it, so that has got to be the stupidest thing I've ever heard. I think you live and die and get burried and that's it.

[pitchu]

Welcome, Rick.

 

Exercising free will to choose to believe is a contradiction in terms.

 

No matter how much the idea of hell may scare the hell out of me, I can't avoid it by choosing to accept Jesus as my savior if I am merely pretending to believe. Belief cannot be forced by will/choice. Yet it is this conundrum on which my eventual destination rests, say Christians.

 

No wonder so many Christians wear smiles with terror at the edges.

 

Good for you for questioning.

[☆ TexasFreethinker ☆]

Hello, I'm Rick. I'm not looking for arguments or anything. I've posted at CF before and talked to a lot of Christians like myself about the whole hell thing.

 

I believe in God and from what the New Testiment Jesus says we have to accept him to be able to make it. I can even deal with that, no problem...

 

What get's me is the "hell" thing. I'm only asking this here because people seem mature and I read a lot here before posting so don't be to cruel.

 

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Glad to be part of the community, opinions on this?

Welcome Rick!

 

Assuming for a moment that the christian god does exist, I would still have two major problems with hell.

 

#1: The punishment (eternal pain and torture) doesn't seem to fit the "crime". Does a 12 year old girl who has just passed the age of accountability and then dies without "accepting jesus" really deserve to spend an eternity in intense pain and suffering? Does an adult who lives a moral life, but who doesn't "accept jesus" for one reason or another really deserve that either?

 

#2: It is not clear that christianity is correct (nor is it clear within christianity exactly what it takes to be "saved"). Honest, sincere people who search for the truth can end up deciding that christianity is false. Honest, sincere christians disagree on what it takes to be saved. Would an all-loving god really send people who honestly sought the truth, but came to the "wrong" conclusion really be punished for all eternity? That doesn't seem just or compassionate.

 

I don't see the proof needed to support the claims of the bible, so I don't believe in the christian god. But, if it does exist and it sends people to an eternal hell of punishment, I don't think it's a moral or good being. I think it's evil.

[Checkmate]

Once again, here's a link. The Case Against Hell by Mercy Aiken

 

(I'm beginning to think that this link needs to be pinned somewhere! This must be the third thread that it's been referenced.)

 

Welcome to the forum, Rick. It may come as a shock to you, but MANY "Christians" don't believe in the doctrine of "hell". Read the above link for the reasons why.

[nightflight]

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

 

Oh yes. Don't get me started.

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

That's just fucking preacher bullshit.

[Lycorth]

One analogy that's been used here before is the whole "Rapist holds a gun to your head and gives you a choice... love him or be punished" thing.

It fits quite well with God's unconditional love (love me or go to hell) and also shows why some people would indeed choose to go to hell...

 

 

It'd be preferable to spending all eternity with that God.

 

I love that analogy - and it's true. I began to have similar thoughts to that when I was still Xian, and I recall pondering just what being damned meant. It meant feeling the intense, searing pain of burning, all over my body, for all time. No breaks to look forward, no end to it, just moment after moment of excruciating agony.

 

And for what? Making love to my girlfriend before we get married? Masturbating all by myself? Not being able to convince myself that Yahweh is god or that Jesus was Yahweh incarnate? Missing Mass one Sunday and never confessing it to a priest?

 

What tripe. Seriously - how sadistic a god is it that would subject you to the torment described above for such small things? Things that are not demonstrably wrong? Either I let Biblegodzilla rape my soul for the rest of my life and sell my soul to Jesus, or I am sent to eternal pain? What about my mother and father, if they fall short of the Bible's "plan of salvation"? What a sick and demonic god that must be.

 

And about Hell - Satan is supposed to be burning there for all time, right? Well, Satan never flooded planets, incinerated cities, murdered the firstborn sons of an entire country, and required the murder of innocent animals in religious rituals - Yahweh did. The Old Testament is rife with such lurid stories, and Jesus is supposed to lead us to this so-called "heavenly father"? Sounds more like an abusive, deadbeat dad to me.

 

Hell only exists in the minds of the preachers, in whose eyes burn its phony flames.

[Cerise]

Hell is other people.

[Poonis]

The christian heaven is my hell.

[aynalhub]

Hell is other people.

 

3 cheers for Sartre!

[Thurisaz]

About hell for all you ex-Christians. Aside from hating religion and everything did you also have a problem with according to God everybody who doesn't accept him goes to hell? That's just A LOT of people to be going to hell.

 

Well, I certainly don't "hate religion" (why else would I be religous myself?), but...

 

...yes, the whole barbaric hell doctrine alone is IMHO already the smoking gun showing that christianity is pure madness unless you're one of those "happy heretics" - so to say - who pretty much ignore everything in the bible except for the "love your neighbor" and other good stuff. Mind you, with these "happy heretics" I don't have any problem... because they normally are willing to accept my differing belief.

The holier-than-thou turn-or-burn fundy zombies on the other hand...

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Because it's bullshit

Consider: Common christian doctrine holds that god is omnipotent and omniscient. This would mean that whatever you do whenever in your life, he knows it in advance, and if he's not fine with it then - being omnipotent - it's child's play for him to prevent you from doing that disliked thing in a myriad different ways. Where's the "free choice" in there, except that this pseudo-reason sounds good the very first time you hear it?

 

That said, welcome to our place

[Guest Rick]

 

The main thing I get when talking to Pastors, etc is God doesn't send us to hell, we choose to go. This has never sat well with me.

 

Glad to be part of the community, opinions on this?

 

Thier answer doesn't compute.

 

According to them, God is all knowing (omniscient), and all powerful (omnipotent), and everywhere (omnipresent).

 

God knew before he created you that you would reject him and go to hell, therefore god sends you to hell.

 

God is powerful enough to create another plan of salvation that is less restrictive, he doesn't have to send you to hell, but he does anyway.

 

Hell is separation from god, but god is everywhere, therefore you cannot be separate from him.

 

 

More: God loves you like a father. Would you send your own sons or daughters to hell for any level of disobedience? Would you send anyone?

 

If so much is riding on your belief then why doesn't he appear before each one of us and show us his wounds the way he did Thomas? Why should we just believe without evidence and if we can't (even if we want to) then why must we suffer for eternity without hope, without relief?

 

If god is really loving, why would he create a system of such brutal punishment in the first place? If he can't stand sin, why can't he just mercifully anihilate sinners rather than send them to eternal torment?

 

These are just a few of the problems I have with the hell doctrine. Hope they help.

 

 

Thanks for everybodys post. This one above it my favorite and makes great sense. That is the thing that seems crazy to me, God knows everything, therefore he MADE us knowing we would go to hell, you can't deny that. I got saved 5 years ago in a pentecostal church while in the Air Force and it honestly did change my life.

 

But as time has gone on, I truly believe in God and Jesus with all my heart even to this day but I think it's more the delivery than anything in my life right now. I've always been so scared of "going to hell" that at one point it really consumed me and I was a bit depressed to be honest. And to be honest, I'm even scared now that if I don't choose the right thing I might burn in hell. I've accepted Jesus and believe in God and the main thing that is really tripping me up according to evangelical Christians is the hell part.

 

Not only do you have to be "living for Christ" on earth but there are other things, I come to the conlusion that according to at least the hard core Christians about 95% of people would be in Hell. It just doesn't make sense.

 

But, my question to ya'll is. Do you guys not believe in God at all? Or, do you just not believe what Christians believe about HOW to get to heaven?

[MQTA]

"sounds Greek to me"

[Purple]

But, my question to ya'll is. Do you guys not believe in God at all? Or, do you just not believe what Christians believe about HOW to get to heaven?

 

That depends, we have liberal Christians on this site who do not believe in a literal interpretation of the bible. Deists, who believe in a creator but that it is not defined by any religious book. Pagans, atheists and agnostics. I'm an agnostic as I just don't know, maybe there is a god, maybe there isn't...I'm not worried about it.

 

I was a Christian for 35 years, I deconverted about 9 months ago. Read the bible for yourself Rick, there is not a mention of eternal torture ANYWHERE in the OT...don't you think that a little bit, odd? In the first five books you will not find a mention of heaven or hell, only earthly blessings and curses. No warning for Adam and Eve, no warning for Abraham, Isaac, Jacab, Noah, Moses not even a hint of warning for eternal torture. However, pagan religions believed in hell, which somehow worked it's way into what Christians believe. It's sad really and the doctrine used to keep me awake at night...not anymore. Besides, I cannot love such a vile and evil beast that would torture people eternally for infinite "sins".

 

Read the bible with your eyes open...

 

Serenity explained pretty well. Just keep in mind, this is an ex-christian site, not an atheist site. There really is no agreed apon group thought or belief. I am also agnostic, but am respectful of the old Roman gods because that is my Erus' beliefs. Many here would find that kind of ridiculous. :: shrug :: No Borg here. ;-)

[♦ nivek ♦]

Gonna pin this topic for a bit folks.

 

Interesting subject that does return quite often. This time our visitor seems more interested in honest question/answer than sectarian preaching at the assembled.

 

That in itself is appreciated, and in return can ensure dialog, rather than a piling on of Exc-ers..

 

kL

[BigToe]

If you want to feel better about the whole Hell thing, perhaps you should check out what Quakers believe.

 

To me, a god that would send his creation he is supposed to love to hell isn't one worth worshipping. And the idea of free will sounds good and all, but that's just it- it sounds good. If you think about how free will could exist with a God that already knows ahead of time what choices you are going to make and that you will go to hell or not....well it doesn't all add up. The only way for people to really have any choice is for there not to be any sort of punishment/reward in the end.

 

I've never believed in Hell. From my going to a Baptist church days till now, Hell just hasn't registered on my radar. I don't think that means that you cannot live a life where God and Jesus aren't influences in your life. In fact, I think if you get rid of a threat of torture, your choice to follow God would mean a lot more.

[pitchu]

I'm among the atheists here, Rick -- not because I "chose of my own free will" to be an atheist, but because, as belief after belief was stripped away by common sense, that's how I was left standing.

 

Had it not been for whoever it was who first seized upon the notion of a god and passed it on, ad infinitum, there would be no reason for me or anyone to carry this label. The label exists only because god-concepts exist. Without god-concepts we would all wear the same label:

 

Human being.

 

*******************

 

I think it must be particularly distressing for you to be wrestling with these questions at Christmas, and I want to acknowledge that.

 

No matter what answers you eventually find, I hope this particular time of this particular year is rewarding for you because of the love you have for others and which others have for you.