Moderator Margee Posted October 5, 2013 Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2013 I've only just begun to take anything about evolution seriously. I know this topic has been discussed many times before, but I was not ready to look seriously at evolution back then. Can we discuss it one more time? I've just watched this documentary. I found it to be amazing. If there is any truth to this and they have their facts straight......then I do not see how any type of supernatural belief can be grasped for me ever again. Would even one of you intelligent people watch this for me when you have time and tell me if you think it is 'fact'? I'm so interested to learn and my head spins from all the 'theories' out there. Has anyone really got the real facts about how this earth got here? How do they know the age of these first creatures? I found this documentary to be extremely interesting.....although, if it is the truth...I will have to face the fact that my 'spiritual' hunt for 'supernatural' is completely over. I am ready to accept whatever the truth is. But does anyone know for 100% sure? Love and peace to all of you tonight. And always, thanks.Margeehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Otd6n-xes8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator TrueFreedom Posted October 5, 2013 Moderator Share Posted October 5, 2013 We have mountains of evidence that various evolutionary processes have taken place for millions of years. Check out this documentary. It's beautiful: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 "100% sure" is probably not the best way to look at the issue. However, all of the evidence points to a process that does not involve the supernatural. In addition, we can observe other star systems in the early stages of their formation. The evidence that we see outside of our solar system supports both theory and the evidence we see here on Earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 No one can be 100% certain about evolution or anything related thereto. There is definitely evidence to support it, and strongly so, too. But even this evidence is not absolutely certainly true. There is still room for error. Personally, I do not let the very strong evidence in favor of evolution dissuade me from the real possibility that there is more to this life than the pure material. After all, evolution does not explain the origin of life, nor does it adequately explain consciousness, in my opinion. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thurisaz Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Margee I don't have the time right now to watch the thing but if it's the same docu that has aired several times over here recently then yes, by and large it's as factual as science can get. And yes it's fascinating 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 After all, evolution does not explain the origin of life, nor does it adequately explain consciousness, . Overcame, thank you so much for your response ....but according to this documentary the origin of life can be explained and even 'consciousness' can be seen from the first creature who ever got eaten alive. It seemed to 'hurt' him big time. No, he didn't holler 'ouch' like we do, but it sure seemed like he knew it hurt. It seems to me that 'consciousness has always been here with the first earth creatures, even before the earth was wiped out from it disasters of fire and ice???? It seems to me that just to be alive as any type of creature, you have 'consciousness' to a certain degree. We may not hear a worm scream when we step on him, but I bet it hurts him a little? Maybe 'consciousness' is that simple? I am thinking that over time (millions of years) that we humans (because of a much bigger, better brain) developed the language we needed to communicate...and the spiritualists now choose to call the call this 'consciousness'. But the facts according to this documentary... it looks to me like the dinosaurs just didn't learn how to talk just yet. These are my thoughts this morning. I know that, I too, have always asked the question: 'what was behind the big bang' to find 'spirituality', but now I am thinking that it was all just the right chemicals? Is this the way a true atheist sees things? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Good morning, Margee. With all due respect, the documentary does not explain the origin of life. It does explain from where what are thought to be the chemical elements needed for life came, but candidly admits of not knowing how life itself came to be. Here is a quote from the documentary: "Combined with the minerals and chemicals from the meteorites, the water becomes a chemical soup. It is impossible to know how or when, but somehow those chemicals came together to create life." At this time, science can only go so far in explaining abiogenesis. I am not saying that it required a creator to change that which is purely material into a living and conscious being. Rather, all I am saying is that it is still a fascinating mystery for which there is no complete answer at this time and until we find the answers, I will remain open to all reasonable possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 Good morning, Margee. With all due respect, the documentary does not explain the origin of life. It does explain from where what are thought to be the chemical elements needed for life came, but candidly admits of not knowing how life itself came to be. Here is a quote from the documentary: "Combined with the minerals and chemicals from the meteorites, the water becomes a chemical soup. It is impossible to know how or when, but somehow those chemicals came together to create life." At this time, science can only go so far in explaining abiogenesis. I am not saying that it required a creator to change that which is purely material into a living and conscious being. Rather, all I am saying is that it is still a fascinating mystery for which there is no complete answer at this time and until we find the answers, I will remain open to all reasonable possibilities. ......so do you think something 'spiritual' made these new slimy creatures? Seems to me that they started off just being single celled little creatures who would eventually crawl out of the water..... What possibilities are you hoping for OF? Even if we are made from stardust......It won't change anything will it? We still live in a suffering world. There will be nothing 'spiritual' about that for me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Good morning, Margee. With all due respect, the documentary does not explain the origin of life. It does explain from where what are thought to be the chemical elements needed for life came, but candidly admits of not knowing how life itself came to be. Here is a quote from the documentary: "Combined with the minerals and chemicals from the meteorites, the water becomes a chemical soup. It is impossible to know how or when, but somehow those chemicals came together to create life." At this time, science can only go so far in explaining abiogenesis. I am not saying that it required a creator to change that which is purely material into a living and conscious being. Rather, all I am saying is that it is still a fascinating mystery for which there is no complete answer at this time and until we find the answers, I will remain open to all reasonable possibilities. ......so do you think something 'spiritua'l made these new slimy creatures? Seems to me that they started off just being single celled little creatures who would eventually crawl out of the water..... What possibilities are you hoping for OF? It won't change anything will it? Neither I nor anyone else knows for a fact how life started. Beginning from that point, no I do not believe life was started by something "spiritual". However, neither do I reject the possibility along with other possibilities like panspermia, that conditions on earth at the time life began were somehow unique so that the primordial soup caused life, that all life began on asteroids and/or comets and is rained down on planets through debris (meteorites) like seeds which if conditions are right, will grow in accordance with the laws of evolution. I have no preference among the possibilities. I find them all equally fascinating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 Good morning, Margee. With all due respect, the documentary does not explain the origin of life. It does explain from where what are thought to be the chemical elements needed for life came, but candidly admits of not knowing how life itself came to be. Here is a quote from the documentary: "Combined with the minerals and chemicals from the meteorites, the water becomes a chemical soup. It is impossible to know how or when, but somehow those chemicals came together to create life." At this time, science can only go so far in explaining abiogenesis. I am not saying that it required a creator to change that which is purely material into a living and conscious being. Rather, all I am saying is that it is still a fascinating mystery for which there is no complete answer at this time and until we find the answers, I will remain open to all reasonable possibilities. ......so do you think something 'spiritua'l made these new slimy creatures? Seems to me that they started off just being single celled little creatures who would eventually crawl out of the water..... What possibilities are you hoping for OF? It won't change anything will it? Neither I nor anyone else knows for a fact how life started. Beginning from that point, no I do not believe life was started by something "spiritual". However, neither do I reject the possibility along with other possibilities like panspermia, that conditions on earth at the time life began were somehow unique so that the primordial soup caused life, that all life began on asteroids and/or comets and is rained down on planets through debris (meteorites) like seeds which if conditions are right, will grow in accordance with the laws of evolution. I have no preference among the possibilities. I find them all equally fascinating. It is quite fascinating....but that's about it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 It is quite fascinating....but that's about it? Perhaps you are wondering about meaning and purpose. One thing the notion of a creator brings to the table is purpose. We may not know the creator's purpose, but it is reasonable to infer that there was some purpose for the act of creation. I think from an emotional level, that is the biggest attraction for believing in a creator. But even without a creator, there could still be some overarching purpose to life, a purpose even beyond what each individual carves out for herself or himself. One that I have often thought about is that it is the entire universe which is evolving. However it came to be, when life first appeared, that was the beginning of a new stage in the universe's evolution. That stage was a living universe and eventually, a universe which is self aware. Looked at from that perspective, we are the universe being aware of itself. When you look at the stars at night, you are one part of the universe looking at and contemplating itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Again, you may want to refrain from definitive statements like "true atheist." The delineation between atheism, agnosticism and concepts like pantheism can be blurry. Atheism is more or less a lack of belief in a God or Gods. The line between belief and absolute knowledge can be blurry, depending on the person. Rather than assume supernatural intervention, I would rather say "I don't know" and be open to new ideas that are well supported with evidence. With that, we are not sure how life first formed on this planet. The evidence in many cases supports your view that it could be the right chemistry in the right environment. We are able to see amino acids, which act as the building blocks of proteins, form in laboratory experiments that replicate early earth and even space like conditions. This is evidence but not compelling enough to warrant belief. IMHO As you consider you own beliefs, you may find it hard to say "I don't know" as religious indoctrination is always so definitive and absolute. It can be uncomfortable admitting one's ignorance, but it does make the act of discovery glorious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 It is quite fascinating....but that's about it? Perhaps you are wondering about meaning and purpose. One thing the notion of a creator brings to the table is purpose. We may not know the creator's purpose, but it is reasonable to infer that there was some purpose for the act of creation. I think from an emotional level, that is the biggest attraction for believing in a creator. But even without a creator, there could still be some overarching purpose to life, a purpose even beyond what each individual carves out for herself or himself. One that I have often thought about is that it is the entire universe which is evolving. However it came to be, when life first appeared, that was the beginning of a new stage in the universe's evolution. That stage was a living universe and eventually, a universe which is self aware. Looked at from that perspective, we are the universe being aware of itself. When you look at the stars at night, you are one part of the universe looking at and contemplating itself. I hope I don't come across as argumentative ....but I see no purpose right now. I am beginning to agree with others that we make our own 'purpose'. Of course we are aware, but I don't think it's because the universe is 'aware'. There are far too many disasters for the universe to 'know' what it's doing. That doesn't mean I can't make a nice life for myself......a nice 'purpose'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I wonder if in the history of life, there has ever been anything comparable to human consciousness. It seems sometimes that nature or evolution has created something unprecedented. Unprecedented in its level of protection against predators without the necessity for claws, fangs or a super strong body, and completely overshooting any other form of protective device ever seen - at least on this planet. Some species seem to have some recognition of themselves as separate from others and some species seem to have an idea of death when they see it happening to their mate or to their babies- but how is it that we see ourselves as separate beings who are alive in some special way apart from nature and who will die ? Can anyone deny that human consciousness is qualitatively different from any other animal species we know of? What is the survival value of exploring space? What is the survival value of developing such deadly weapons that we could destroy the entire planet? Is anything on this planet interested in going elsewhere out of this world, except us? The mind-body problem and the qualia problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#The_zombie_argument are still being debated by philosophers as far as I know. With no end in site. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 "I don't know" and be open to new ideas that are well supported with evidence. Thanks Rogue. What new ideas would you like to see discovered? When one remains agnostic...we are still hoping for 'something'.? That has been me in the last 3 years on EX-c.. What are we hoping for? What are we waiting for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thought2Much Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Margee, as others have noted here, the short answer to the question of how life started on Earth is "we don't know." We have lots of ideas, some more possible or likely than others. But we really just don't know. It's possible (even likely) we'll never have a definite answer. However, we also have no evidence that any of this was started with some sort of purpose in mind, so we can't fall for the false dichotomy of "We don't know, therefore God." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 I wonder if in the history of life, there has ever been anything comparable to human consciousness. It seems sometimes that nature or evolution has created something unprecedented. Unprecedented in its level of protection against predators without the necessity for claws, fangs or a super strong body, and completely overshooting any other form of protective device ever seen - at least on this planet. Some species seem to have some recognition of themselves as separate from others and some species seem to have an idea of death when they see it happening to their mate or to their babies- but how is it that we see ourselves as separate beings who are alive in some special way apart from nature and who will die ? Can anyone deny that human consciousness is qualitatively different from any other animal species we know of? What is the survival value of exploring space? What is the survival value of developing such deadly weapons that we could destroy the entire planet? Is anything on this planet interested in going elsewhere out of this world, except us? The mind-body problem and the qualia problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#The_zombie_argument are still being debated by philosophers as far as I know. With no end in site. When I see how from the very beginning of time on this earth, starting from the creatures below in the oceans having to eat each other for survival...I cannot deny to myself anymore that some 'intelligence' put this whole thing together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 "I don't know" and be open to new ideas that are well supported with evidence. Thanks Rogue. What new ideas would you like to see discovered? When one remains agnostic...we are still hoping for 'something'.? That has been me in the last 3 years on EX-c.. What are we hoping for? What are we waiting for? The way I view agnostic is in terms of not "knowing" or not having "knowledge." Therefore I am agnostic in the sense that I do not have absolute knowledge. However, atheism, IMHO answers the question of belief. The way I see it is if I do not know something, I cannot believe. Therefore, this makes me both agnostic and an atheist when it comes to the supernatural. This means agnostic is less about hope and more about simply admitting ones ignorance. Often, I cannot say exactly what I am looking or hoping for. Nearly every day is an experience as I learn about the physical world. Our understanding has changed in profound ways. When I was in college the first go around about 15 or so years ago, I had to take a year long sequence in human anatomy and physiology. Back then, the role of glial cells in the central nervous system were not as well defined. Currently, we now know their role is significantly more important and profound than we ever thought. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogueScholar Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 I wonder if in the history of life, there has ever been anything comparable to human consciousness. It seems sometimes that nature or evolution has created something unprecedented. Unprecedented in its level of protection against predators without the necessity for claws, fangs or a super strong body, and completely overshooting any other form of protective device ever seen - at least on this planet. Some species seem to have some recognition of themselves as separate from others and some species seem to have an idea of death when they see it happening to their mate or to their babies- but how is it that we see ourselves as separate beings who are alive in some special way apart from nature and who will die ? Can anyone deny that human consciousness is qualitatively different from any other animal species we know of? What is the survival value of exploring space? What is the survival value of developing such deadly weapons that we could destroy the entire planet? Is anything on this planet interested in going elsewhere out of this world, except us? The mind-body problem and the qualia problem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia#The_zombie_argument are still being debated by philosophers as far as I know. With no end in site. Deva, it is an interesting question you pose. I would also point to the fact that in spite of our seemingly unique cognitive abilities, our brains are still fundamentally hardwired to think about a classical world that included surviving out in the wilderness. For example, many contemporary concepts such as quantum mechanics are so outside of our ability to intuit that we simply cannot imagine and deal with such things in any practical way. This tells me that we are still very much a part of this physical world and that our brains are very much wired to understand the classical aspects of the world, but are not able to intuit things outside of this specific environment. A few thoughts from my man Neil that may further illuminate the issue: http://youtu.be/9sDtbTsmJcE 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 For every spiritual hunt I have dabbled in...I always come back to this by Neil. He just ends up making sence to me. I know this has been posted many times..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Rogue Scholar: If only we were satisfied with living in the physical world and getting enough to eat and having our various physical needs met! That would indeed be the "paradise" referred to in mythology. Although at some time in prehistory that was probably the case, we all know that isn't the case now, and hasn't been for at least for the last 100,000 years or when the first cave paintings were made. I submit that this is when we became aware that we were different from everything else living. Why? I am not at odds with what science is saying. Tyson is posing questions about "intelligence" but I am saying "self-awareness" which is a bit different question. There is still something in human consciousness that is unexplained, at least to my satisfaction. And no, that does not mean I think that "God did it." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Margee Posted October 6, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted October 6, 2013 I am not at odds with what science is saying. Tyson is posing questions about "intelligence" but I am saying "self-awareness" which is a bit different question. There is still something in human consciousness that is unexplained, at least to my satisfaction. And no, that does not mean I think that "God did it." But, but, But.....Deva........don't you think this just has to do with the certain species who made a little love, and created our 'humanness' with its bigger and better brain???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deva Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Rogue Scholar: If only we were satisfied with living in the physical world and getting enough to eat and having our various physical needs met! That would indeed be the "paradise" referred to in mythology. Although at some time in prehistory that was probably the case, we all know that isn't the case now, and hasn't been for at least for the last 100,000 years or when the first cave paintings were made. I submit that this is when we became aware that we were different from everything else living. Why? I am not at odds with what science is saying. Tyson is posing questions about "intelligence" but I am saying "self-awareness" which is a bit different question. There is still something in human consciousness that is unexplained, at least to my satisfaction. And no, that does not mean I think that "God did it." But, but, But.....Deva........don't you think this just has to do with the certain species who made a little love, and created our 'humanness' with its bigger and better brain???? Bigger, maybe not better in the long run. Modern humans have not been around long compared to other species. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 Even if we are made from stardust......It won't change anything will it? We still live in a suffering world. There will be nothing 'spiritual' about that for me.... Even if we are made from stardust it will not change any outcomes. Yes, we will still live in a suffering world. Also, I agree that there is nothing spiritual about being made from stardust. The thing that I think does change if, as the evidence suggests, we are made from stardust is our outlook on the universe and ourselves. I think one of the many things about Genesis that has wrongly shaped our outlook is that God is portrayed as having separate acts of creation. The heavens are created, the earth is created, animals are created, plants are created and then the last separate act of creation is that human beings were said to have been created. If believed, those distinct acts of creation separate us from the universe and everything on Earth. However, if the common material from which everything is ultimately made is the dust from stars that died billions of years ago, then we human beings are not separate from everything else. Rather, we have something in common with everything in the universe - a common origin. If you think about it, we share something very basic with stars. There is a beginning point for stars and there is a beginning point for each of us. Stars grow and develop and so do we. Finally, stars ultimately "die" as do we. This is the cycle of things and we are as much a part of that cycle as are stars albeit stars have longer "lives" than we do. I remember when I first found out that, as one example, the formation of gold is a byproduct of a dying star which ultimately exploded. So the gold in our jewelry, though found on Earth, was actually formed in some star that existed billions of years ago. I find that fact simply amazing!! None of this proves anything necessarily spiritual. In fact, what I have described is simply the way things are given the natural laws that control our universe. But from a philosophical standpoint it means that we are not separate from the universe, but are a part of it. That gives me comfort in a world full of both joy and suffering. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overcame Faith Posted October 6, 2013 Share Posted October 6, 2013 One more thing on gold having been formed in dying stars. Here's an article that suggests that gold is formed when neutron stars collide. All the world's gold came from collisions of dead stars, scientists say http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/18/tech/innovation/gold-origins-stars/index.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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