Honor Your Father And Mother

[amateur]

I just realized how stupid that commandment is.  If your parents are decent, kind, responsible, loving parents, you will honor them without having to think about it.  If they are NOT, perhaps they are not worthy of honor.

 

I'm thinking about some of the horrible childhood stories I've read on this site.  If I had been raised by horrible, fundy parents who expected some type of holy perfection from me and beat me when I failed and refused to let me have friends with regular kids who got to have fun, and refused to let me have any type of normal childhood, I would not, could not, honor them.

 

I think of some of horror stories my sister told me when she worked in a psych hospital with adolescents.  Some kids were in the hospital because they had real mental illness; that is not an issue.  But some kids were there because of their parents.  There were parents who forced their children to have sex with them (fathers AND mothers), parents who made their young kids be in porn to make money for the parents.  There was a rich couple's teenager whose time at the hospital had run out, but nobody could get hold of the parents to take the child home because the parents were off on a vacation in their personal jet and nobody could locate them (similar things had happened with this couple before, so it was no accident, they simply wanted nothing to do with their teenager -- and the teenager knew it).  My sister said that every spring when school let out, there was a sudden influx of admissions because certain parents had learned that if you say the right thing ("my child said they were going to kill themself" or "my child said they were going to kill us") the child would be put in the hospital for the two weeks that insurance allows, thus giving the parents an extra two weeks of vacation without their kids.  On and on.

 

And what about that monster that kept those young women hostage for ten years in Cleveland?  He fathered one child that he let live (and beat until miscarriage so he'd kill his other children).  What kind of deluded mind would ever think someone like that deserved honor?

 

Honor needs to be earned, and when it is earned it is given freely and happily.

 

Perhaps that commandment was added so that we would feel obliged to honor god, our "father," without question.  And he could threaten us with hell, he could test us with horrible trials for the sole purpose of testing our faith, he could ignore our prayers, and he could remain completely invisible and incommunicative with us, and our job is to forever and completely honor god and forgive him for his neglect and abuse and inaction.  Whoever wrote the bible, and whoever perpetuates it, simply wanted and wants power over us.

 

[Blue elephant]

Precisely!  I find myself having to deal with  a very unpleasant parent who was a fundy nutter now that she is 90.  I worked out that I wanted nothing to do with her by the age of 18 and promptly left home!

 

Nothing there to respect!  Destructive behaviour that served to sabotage!

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

I struggle with this only rarely now. I walked away completely, meaning no communication whatsoever, as of 4 years ago. Overall, I am a much happier person. Less drama. Less conflicted feelings after being in contact. Life is so much better. But yes, it is ridiculous how neglected children can be at the hands of religious parents. I am a prime example of that. Mania, irrational fears, wet the bed till I was nearly 12. What did they do for me? Threats to humiliate me in front of other church members. Whippings. Punches on the head. Verbal abuse of how "I'm not a good girl or good daughter, and certainly NOT a good Christian." I went to THREE, just THREE counseling sessions when in their care from birth to age 16. The first two? Just pointed out how I must not let my flesh rebel against my spirit. Yeah, it's all my fault. I was like 8 years old. Then when I was 16, they went for crisis counseling when I let the dams break loose to force my way out of their fucked up home. That counselor? She encouraged them to let me go. Did NOT recommend further counseling (that I am aware of), and even if she did, my parents never brought it up.

 

Ultimately? My father faced jail time, and instead of going along with the charges, my mother implored me to not let that happen and in return they signed me free.

 

I'm an only child, who at age 16, could not value what I was losing. Now that I am 36, it pains me everyday to see how easily she kept a molesting child abuser over her ONLY child. A woman who valued the appearance of her marriage over the well being of her legacy: Me. A cunt who would rather deal with sweeping her husband's years of abuse not just to me, but to her as well, and not have to heal and bring her daughter back in to her life.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty fucking bitter. I was in and out of pscyh wards for the better part of 10 years. Running blind in the world, not sure what to do or expect. You know, abused kids are not prepared for the world, let alone equipped to self-evaluate their situations adequately. It pisses me off to no end some days. I'm just grateful I managed to get enough control to save my kids from the same fate that I was on the path to put them through.

 

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Lot of bad memories associated with that post.

[RenaissanceWoman]

Wow, this is a painful thread! Bad memories here too. Thanks to all for baring your souls. I hope we all find some peace here together.

[slave2six]

My perspective is somewhat different. My parents and I fought for a lot of years for many of the same reasons that all us kids of fundies have been through. When I became agnostic, all that stopped for two reasons:

1. I changed. - I no longer held my parents to some impossible measure that the Christian doctrine imposes. I also learned a lot about their upbringing and the histories of their families and I came to understand why they were they way they were and thought as they did. This made it a lot easier for me to forgive them and to move on.
    
2. They changed - My parent's became Orthodox some time in the last 20 years and stopped a lot of their fundie thinking. Dad became a lot better person in general and more open to discussion rather than demanding that he was right about everything. This is one of the reasons that I respect the Orthodox Christian religion more than any other branch. But they also saw that I was truly happy after deconverting and they seemed to be happy about that. Uncommon and weird as that experience is, I am glad that it happened.

My sister, who is as whacked-out a Christian as you will ever want to meet, took my Mom's diary after Mom died and she read them. She then went on to berate my Dad for stuff that Mom had written over 40 years before regarding their marriage. I got really angry with her over this because she really had no business invading Mom's privacy but even worse it was a low blow for her to interfere in her parent's marriage.

 

To my mind, she defied the essence of "honor your father and mother." Some things are none of our business as children and we need to respect those boundaries. 

 

Unfortunately, most people take this "honor" thing to be a license to do anything they want to do to their kids. that's heinous, IMHO. But there are boundaries that I think should apply to children. 

[amateur]

^^^Absolutely.  Your sister did not honor your parents with that.  That was simply mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel.

[rach]

I'm adopted I've had two sets of parents: Bio= non-religious but spiritual, Adoptive= fundy.  My bio parents win hands down.  They cared about ME, my fundy parents cared about religion, church, their social status in the church, but never about me.  I was a person to my real parents, but just an object to my adoptive parents.  As soon as I entered my adoptive parents home I was on eggshells all the time, in trouble for everything under the sun (things that weren't even wrong), neglected, poorly clothed, poorly treated, dirty.  My real parents would never have let me to be dirty, or clothed in rags.  So much for Christian love.  They sure do love their Jesus though.  That's great because it's all theyre ever going to have. 

[slave2six]

^^^Absolutely.  Your sister did not honor your parents with that.  That was simply mean-spirited and unnecessarily cruel.

 

Just one of the many reasons I am not unhappy to have her out of my life.

[Idontevenknow99]

I just realized how stupid that commandment is.  If your parents are decent, kind, responsible, loving parents, you will honor them without having to think about it.  If they are NOT, perhaps they are not worthy of honor.

 

I'm thinking about some of the horrible childhood stories I've read on this site.  If I had been raised by horrible, fundy parents who expected some type of holy perfection from me and beat me when I failed and refused to let me have friends with regular kids who got to have fun, and refused to let me have any type of normal childhood, I would not, could not, honor them.

 

I think of some of horror stories my sister told me when she worked in a psych hospital with adolescents.  Some kids were in the hospital because they had real mental illness; that is not an issue.  But some kids were there because of their parents.  There were parents who forced their children to have sex with them (fathers AND mothers), parents who made their young kids be in porn to make money for the parents.  There was a rich couple's teenager whose time at the hospital had run out, but nobody could get hold of the parents to take the child home because the parents were off on a vacation in their personal jet and nobody could locate them (similar things had happened with this couple before, so it was no accident, they simply wanted nothing to do with their teenager -- and the teenager knew it).  My sister said that every spring when school let out, there was a sudden influx of admissions because certain parents had learned that if you say the right thing ("my child said they were going to kill themself" or "my child said they were going to kill us") the child would be put in the hospital for the two weeks that insurance allows, thus giving the parents an extra two weeks of vacation without their kids.  On and on.

 

And what about that monster that kept those young women hostage for ten years in Cleveland?  He fathered one child that he let live (and beat until miscarriage so he'd kill his other children).  What kind of deluded mind would ever think someone like that deserved honor?

 

Honor needs to be earned, and when it is earned it is given freely and happily.

 

Perhaps that commandment was added so that we would feel obliged to honor god, our "father," without question.  And he could threaten us with hell, he could test us with horrible trials for the sole purpose of testing our faith, he could ignore our prayers, and he could remain completely invisible and incommunicative with us, and our job is to forever and completely honor god and forgive him for his neglect and abuse and inaction.  Whoever wrote the bible, and whoever perpetuates it, simply wanted and wants power over us.

 

I think somewhere in my Christian life I would think about this idea a lot, as in, what if the parents are complete losers, scumbags who abuse and wrongfully punish their children for being themselves? I can't remember how some Christians answered this, but this tidbit from gotquestions.org (a Christian ministry devoted to providing "godly" answers) said this:

 

"So what does honoring an abusive parent look like in real life [...] "Trusting God may feel disconnected or impossible for those who have never known what it is to love and trust [...] God will take the heart that has been turned to stone by an abusive childhood and replace it with one of flesh and feeling."

 

Well have I got news for you! The moment we're born, we are biologically wired to trust the person with whom we're physically attached to the most, and in most cases that is the mother. What about the fact that our brains are programmed to trust and depend on for love and nurturing. Since when are we born ready to love and trust a supernatural being? And the metaphor of the heart turning into stone makes no sense! The so-called Christians who condemn and crucify the flesh for the most randomest of acts are the same ones wanting a "clean heart made of flesh." Our psyches are responsible for the way we react to physical and emotional harm. When that instinct to love and trust and to be reciprocated is betrayed, of course we're going to say "to hell with those horrible parents of mine!" 

 

Not to mention nowhere in there did they say anything about how to recognize abuse or how to ask for help. Instead, they were more concerned about "unforgiveness in their heart" It's bull. 

 

Now, I'm not saying it's impossible to forgive people who have abused their children, it is very much possible but whether that person feels that their abuser deserves their forgiveness is up to them. I don't think you owe (not you specificially) anybody an apology for your confusion and fear. End of it. 

[amateur]

^^^That quote from gotquestions.org is awful.  So when the abused person tries but still can't feel anything good towards daddygod, it must be because they don't have enough faith so that god will turn their heart back to flesh and feeling (What the hell does that mean?  They have plenty of hurt flesh and beat feelings).  So once again, let's blame the victim.  God was standing there all the time waiting to be asked into their heart, blahblahblah.

 

It's also stupid because it doesn't say how it works.  It just implies "some miracle of god happens" and everything after that is fine.  Too many church answers are exactly like that.

 

Another horrible thing I've heard more than once in church is that "You were sent to the exact parents that were right for you, chosen by god."  That so blatently ignores the reality of abuse that I can't even stand it.  If I had been an abused child and had heard that, I would have (I hope) gone up and punched the preacher.  I have actually heard that more than once in a sermon.  I can't understand how someone can be a preacher, who gets to hear from parishioners secrets about their lives which would have to include some horrible abusive backgrounds, can believe or say something like that, knowing they are hurting people in their congregation with that lie.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

"So what does honoring an abusive parent look like in real life [...] "Trusting God may feel disconnected or impossible for those who have never known what it is to love and trust [...] God will take the heart that has been turned to stone by an abusive childhood and replace it with one of flesh and feeling."

 

 

What about the heart that has been turned to stone by religious abuse during childhood.  What's god's all mighty remedy for that?  Love and trust, indeed!

[Guest chrisassaf]

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

[TheRedneckProfessor]

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

 

So a father who sexually molests his daughter should still be honored by said daughter simply because your tyrant of a god demands it?  That is simply sick!

[TheBluegrassSkeptic]

 

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

 

So a father who sexually molests his daughter should still be honored by said daughter simply because your tyrant of a god demands it?  That is simply sick!

 

Yeah, I don't do the whole martyrdom thing either. That's a stupid (and painful) way to live when it doesn't have to be.

[Guest chrisassaf]

 

 

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

 

So a father who sexually molests his daughter should still be honored by said daughter simply because your tyrant of a god demands it?  That is simply sick!

 

Yeah, I don't do the whole martyrdom thing either. That's a stupid (and painful) way to live when it doesn't have to be.

 

But, there is the part of loving your enemies and forgiving someone limitlessly?

[mymistake]

 

 

 

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

 

So a father who sexually molests his daughter should still be honored by said daughter simply because your tyrant of a god demands it?  That is simply sick!

 

Yeah, I don't do the whole martyrdom thing either. That's a stupid (and painful) way to live when it doesn't have to be.

 

But, there is the part of loving your enemies and forgiving someone limitlessly?

 

 

Forgiving somebody should never mean letting them hurt you again.  Forgiveness is not trust.  Loving your enemies is stupid.

[Guest chrisassaf]

Only Toobis can decide what is stupid and what isn't!!!!

[TheRedneckProfessor]

 

 

 

Sometimes certain things must be done, no matter what the circumstances.

 

So a father who sexually molests his daughter should still be honored by said daughter simply because your tyrant of a god demands it?  That is simply sick!

 

Yeah, I don't do the whole martyrdom thing either. That's a stupid (and painful) way to live when it doesn't have to be.

 

But, there is the part of loving your enemies and forgiving someone limitlessly?

 

 

Among rational, well-balanced adults those principles do occasionally work.  However, they are NOT applicable to children who are being abused.

[Guest chrisassaf]

I'm adopted I've had two sets of parents: Bio= non-religious but spiritual, Adoptive= fundy.  My bio parents win hands down.  They cared about ME, my fundy parents cared about religion, church, their social status in the church, but never about me.  I was a person to my real parents, but just an object to my adoptive parents.  As soon as I entered my adoptive parents home I was on eggshells all the time, in trouble for everything under the sun (things that weren't even wrong), neglected, poorly clothed, poorly treated, dirty.  My real parents would never have let me to be dirty, or clothed in rags.  So much for Christian love.  They sure do love their Jesus though.  That's great because it's all theyre ever going to have. 

 

Why were you adopted, if you don't mind my asking?

[MerryG]

Only Toobis can decide what is stupid and what isn't!!!!

 

I call upon the Flord Our Mod to smite thee, troll!

[Guest chrisassaf]

 

Only Toobis can decide what is stupid and what isn't!!!!

 

I call upon the Flord Our Mod to smite thee, troll!

 

 

This isn't trolling.

 

I am just stating that just one guy can be an authority on what is and isn't, especially since he has changed the world, just as I have done.

 

Also, there are alot of opinions on here I don't like.

[RenaissanceWoman]

Also, there are alot of opinions on here I don't like.

 

I usually don't comment on the trolls, because everyone else seems to do such a great job smacking them down. But this really gets my goat.

 

Sir, there are plenty of sites out there where you can find opinions you do like. Why do you come here and pester? This has been said over and over ad nauseum, but let me repeat: Most of us are here because we have followed that rabbit hole of Christianity to the very end, as far and deep as it can go, and have found nothing there but a long dark trail of tears to get to the bitter end. We come here for solace. I assure you that nothing you say here is going to convince the vast majority of us to jump back into that pit.

 

I come here to find peace and understanding after leaving a dreadful, lonely, desperate, soul-shattering experience that was Christianity. I come to find comfort from others who have experienced similar things, because (unlike the stuff you are interested in), people like us tend to suffer in silence and anonymity and are therefore hard to find. (And that's because Christians are everywhere, they do not like people who are no longer in their little club, and quite frankly, they are mean about it. It's safer for us to keep to ourselves.)

 

I do not come here to find tired old drivel from bullies like you. Been there, done that. I've heard it all before, ad nauseum. I don't need a reminder from you of what I have left -- a condescending, fear-mongering, evil religion. You may think you are going to help us or whatever, but I assure you, you are pissing me off.

 

What you are doing is just plain rude. Some of us here are really trying to mend, and you come in here trying to poke a stick in our old wounds. You're like a crack dealer showing up at an AA meeting with free samples, and wondering why you are not welcome. The people in AA are there to overcome their problems with booze, but you show up trying to get them to try something "different!" but equally destructive. I hope this analogy makes sense.

 

Personally, I seldom go into the Lion's Den unless I am feeling strong enough for those topics. I come here to the Rants and the Ex-Christian Life section to learn from similar issues shared by my friends here. I actually find strength and comfort here. But then I run across comments like yours, and I get the opposite result -- annoyed. So if you would like to continue your trolling, at least be sensitive and polite enough to keep it in the proper setting, where people are expecting to see such topics. I think you are missing the point of what this forum is about.

 

You wouldn't show up at the scene of a car crash to find a victim with a shattered leg bone, for example, and say, "Hey, let's start some physical therapy right now to get that leg back in shape!" No, you let them get treated and fixed up and operated on and in a cast and on their way to healing, and then you come in with your physical therapy. You must allow for initial triage and a bit of healing before trying to get them back on track. (This analogy is not perfect, because many of us don't want to ever get back on track with Christianity, but I hope you see my point anyway about allowing people their space to heal.)

 

You may think you are a representative of Christ (or whatever it is you think), but you are nothing but a bully. You are trying to prey upon people who are trying to heal. Just let us get over our initial hump in the healing process, and when (and if) we are ready to face that demon of Christianity again, we will come to you. You will see that there are plenty of us already at that point who are willing to engage you in the Lion's Den. Why come here and try to swing for the low hanging fruit? It's only backfiring on you, I assure you. For now, I would appreciate if you would show some respect and stop desecrating our sacred little space here.

 

You will attract more flies with honey, but right now, right here, you are lemon juice on an open sore. Please realize that your efforts are backfiring, and you are actually hurting people who are trying to heal. Is that your intent, way down in that human heart of yours? To hurt people? In reality, "the truth hurts". We here know the truth, and you are not it. The real truth hurts, and that's why we are here.

 

Well, that's the end of my rant. Just please try to play nice, OK? A little respect.

[amateur]

^^^Thank you, RenaissanceWoman.  Well said.

[RenaissanceWoman]

Thanks, Amateur. I don't know what came over me... too much coffee this morning? You are free to copy-and-paste any of my irritated comments as needed.